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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#181 - 2014-02-25 16:44:33 UTC  |  Edited by: LT Alter
Michael Harari wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:

In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.


You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken.

I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing.


A ship at 0 velocity gets hit for full dps by any guns not mounted on a titan.

Also, didnt you lose a bait tengu to me because you didnt know you cant light cynos in deadspace? And then had to burn a bunch of canes and falcons to save the archon you warped in?


http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage

As long as turret resolution is larger than the target resolution there will always be a chance to miss. Also no ship (unless it's a pod that just launched or a ship that just jumped in) is truly at zero velocity, even under dual 90% webs you're still moving and then it has an immensely larger effect on the turret resolution, XL guns simply wont hit any frigate that's moving, even at a slow pace

And yes, being mainly a pvper that operates outside of such sites I was not aware of that at the time. Also nothing else warped in to save the archon, large ecm drones alone got me out. Though that is hardly relevant to this conversation
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#182 - 2014-02-25 16:45:00 UTC
Jon Joringer wrote:
I think your changes to the Cruor make it a little bit more useless than it is now. It does not receive a neut/nos range bonus, nor does it get any kind of optimal range bonus for its turrets, yet it now gets a web range bonus. It's bonuses don't have synergy with one another anymore -- its neuts/nos don't get past 7km and it's guns won't have terribly great optimal, either. I understand the move to web range bonuses to keep it similar throughout the entire Blood Raider line, but either change the Cruor's bonuses to neut/nos range and laser optimal, or change the web bonus back to strength for the Cruor. I think the Cruor is neglected not for its bonuses (which work really well together, I think), but for other reasons, like lackluster dps, maybe.

This ship will absolutely control range ---> Win fights. It will be moderately fast with massive effective sig radius reduction (does not have to turn on mwd)
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#183 - 2014-02-25 16:46:51 UTC
all seems to be ok,except for worm.i would let the worm have at least 5 drones/5 drones bay,and modify the bonus only.2 drones with 300% bonus to damage is just,wrong
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2014-02-25 16:47:05 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Anya Klibor wrote:
(so the Rattlesnake would get to field two Ogres with a 300% increase to damage and hit points).

No.

I'm guessing the Rattlesnake is only going to get 25m Bandwidth anyway.


They said they want them to be able to launch two drones. That means that either the Rattlesnake can launch two light drones (not likely, because seriously that would be ******), or two heavies/sentries. Since I'm thinking the wording implies that the bonus will be to drones of equivalent size, that means sentries and heavies will get the bonus from the Rattlesnake's role, meaning that it will be an anti-battleship platform.

Though now that I think about it, it could be freaking hilarious to have a drone doctrine around the Rattlesnake. With only 50 drones being the maximum you can have assisting you, if it's all Rattlesnakes that means that you have the equivalent of 150 drones.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Krom Thomson
Jumpbridg
#185 - 2014-02-25 16:47:25 UTC
It would be nice to see the DD lose a bit of its speed but thus far most of the changes look nice
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#186 - 2014-02-25 16:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
LT Alter wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:

In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.


You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken.

I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing.


A ship at 0 velocity gets hit for full dps by any guns not mounted on a titan.

Also, didnt you lose a bait tengu to me because you didnt know you cant light cynos in deadspace? And then had to burn a bunch of canes and falcons to save the archon you warped in?


http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage

As long as turret resolution is larger than the target resolution there will always be a chance to miss. Also no ship is truly at zero velocity, eve under dual 90% webs you're still moving and then it has an immensely larger effect on the turret resolution, XL guns simply wont hit any frigate that's moving, even at a slow pace

And yes, being mainly a pvper that operates outside of such sites I was not aware of that at the time. Also nothing else warped in to save the archon, large ecm drones alone got me out. Though that is hardly relevant to this conversation

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/File:TurretHitChance1.png

Your understanding of the tracking formula is wrong. Signature only operates as a multiplier to tracking speed.

Also, your ecm drones never jammed us, we had an alt 2j away that saw the tundragon canes and falcons flying by.

http://pbrd.co/1gzAKXS

Thats 90% webs, no painters, no links on malediction
Marsan
#187 - 2014-02-25 16:51:51 UTC
"SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed"

Am I the only one who thinks the bonuses are backwards? Why should Caldari frigate give you a Energy Turret bonus??? Other than that I love the new Succubus, and I say that as a someone who bought 20+ of them last month;-)

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#188 - 2014-02-25 16:53:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
CompleteFailure wrote:
elitatwo wrote:

2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P)
+1


Itago Gemulus wrote:
2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones


It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300%

300% = 3.00

2*3.00 = 6

learn2maths


wait...so u think the current sansha and blood laser bonus is written down in the ship traits for what reason? and ur inferrence of the word 'bonus' means what?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
GallowsCalibrator
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2014-02-25 16:54:59 UTC
I'm liking these changes, although the cruor feels a little strange with the disparity between web and nos range; I'm not entirely sure it's a bad thing, and gives the ship two different roles.

Worm is pretty much an assfrig, likewise the Succubus, but with only one half of the defining assfrig features: (Extra tankiness, or lowered-sig maneuverability.)

Daredevil and Dramiel are still nasty.

Weaselior wrote:
Isn't a theme of "two powerful drones" basically saying "make a drone assist fleet based on these"


The idea of a Sentry Rattlesnake doctrine with the 300% role bonus and the inherent tankiness they have is terrifying - they will end up as pocket carriers. (I'd expect still very vulnerable to alpha doctrines however; but this is speculation on something that isn't even released yet.)
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#190 - 2014-02-25 16:57:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
GallowsCalibrator wrote:
I

The idea of a Sentry Rattlesnake doctrine with the 300% role bonus and the inherent tankiness they have is terrifying - they will end up as pocket carriers. (I'd expect still very vulnerable to alpha doctrines however; but this is speculation on something that isn't even released yet.)


NC. ran these in providence, they got dunked pretty hard iirc.

Edit: The tank isnt being changed, the damage output might be significantly buffed, but I dont think that was the issue with the comp
Nbonga
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2014-02-25 16:57:42 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Angel: And last we have the most popular pirate faction, which is doing pretty well at all three sizes. The biggest problem Angels face is direct competition with other Minmatar ships and a light case of OP. The Dramiel isn't getting any big changes and the other two Angel ships probably won't see any huge change in style or function either, but wait for later threads to discuss their specifics please.

For the frigs we are in a situation where there are two performing well (Dramiel and Daredevil) and 3 that are virtually unused. That means the buffs for those 3 (Succubus, Cruor, Worm) come in the form of pretty heavy attribute gains as well as re-design in terms of bonuses. In general this class is getting some updates to bring them into the post-tiericide world so things like base speed and lock range will get tweaks across the board.



Majority of changes are pretty good but I think Dramiel needs some changes. Even if it's used right now doesn't really mean that it's completely fine. After the changes it won't be fine compared to others. Give it some CPU at least.
CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
SL0W CHILDREN AT PLAY
#192 - 2014-02-25 16:58:08 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
CompleteFailure wrote:
elitatwo wrote:

2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P)
+1


Itago Gemulus wrote:
2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones


It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300%

300% = 3.00

2*3.00 = 6

learn2maths


By that logic 100% role bonus on Marauders is 4*1 = 4 effective turrets (300%=3.00 -> 100% =1.00)

If you add 300% you get a bonus of 300% not a total of 300%


***dammit. Cry
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#193 - 2014-02-25 16:58:31 UTC
i would think the rattlesnake would be bonused for heavy drones not sentries

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#194 - 2014-02-25 16:58:50 UTC
Thoughts on adding an according bonus to EW/Repair drones on the guristas ships?

Giving people the option to sacrifice the damage drones in their meager drone bay for added utility from the other drones without being completely let down by the bandwith restriction makes for interesting fitting choices.

Also I must ask how you intend to deal with the Gila and Rattlesnake if you are going to give them a 300% bonus and 50m3 bandwith to launch two large size drones, since 5 mediums/lights bonused like that would be incredibly powerful against smaller targets as well as targets in the same size class.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#195 - 2014-02-25 16:59:57 UTC
Destoya wrote:
Thoughts on adding an according bonus to EW/Repair drones on the guristas ships?

Giving people the option to sacrifice the damage drones in their meager drone bay for added utility from the other drones without being completely let down by the bandwith restriction makes for interesting fitting choices.

Also I must ask how you intend to deal with the Gila and Rattlesnake if you are going to give them a 300% bonus and 50m3 bandwith to launch two large size drones, since 5 mediums/lights bonused like that would be incredibly powerful against smaller targets as well as targets in the same size class.


They could limit the number of drones controlled. Its an awkward fix though
carlmar wix
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2014-02-25 16:59:59 UTC
Worm just became my new favoriteship! two drones but they do a bunch more damage sounds very fun!

EVE **Online - Best Game i've ever played**, i just wish i could play using plex only!
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2014-02-25 17:00:46 UTC
Rowells wrote:
ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB?


Should be 337.5% (a max skilled pilot gets a 168.75% bonus from a T2) and a 506.26% with the module on overheat, so long as you are fitting the same size AB.

If you are fitting a 10MN T2 you would get a 848% bonus (424% bonus off a max skill), and an utterly absurd 1272% bonus with heat. Considering that is just based of the current ship stats, and doesn't include any bonuses from nano-fibers or the like, I could easily see 3.3km/s (5.4 w / heat) beam succubi after the expansion.

And if you don't think that's the tightest **** ever than get out of my face.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#198 - 2014-02-25 17:01:02 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i would think the rattlesnake would be bonused for heavy drones not sentries


i hope its both. if not. poop

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Cade Windstalker
#199 - 2014-02-25 17:01:25 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
LT Alter wrote:
http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Turret_Damage

As long as turret resolution is larger than the target resolution there will always be a chance to miss. Also no ship is truly at zero velocity, eve under dual 90% webs you're still moving and then it has an immensely larger effect on the turret resolution, XL guns simply wont hit any frigate that's moving, even at a slow pace

And yes, being mainly a pvper that operates outside of such sites I was not aware of that at the time. Also nothing else warped in to save the archon, large ecm drones alone got me out. Though that is hardly relevant to this conversation

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/File:TurretHitChance1.png

Your understanding of the tracking formula is wrong. Signature only operates as a multiplier to tracking speed.

Also, your ecm drones never jammed us, we had an alt 2j away that saw the tundragon canes and falcons flying by.

http://pbrd.co/1gzAKXS

Thats 90% webs, no painters, no links on malediction


There's reduced damage for the over-sized guns but Bonused Target Painters can bring the sig-resolution of a Frigate well into the realm where a Dread will wipe it off the field easily, sometimes with only one gun depending on the tank of the Frigate, and only the most hilariously over-tanked T1 or T2 Cruiser can survive a Moros's alpha with webs and TPs on it. Anything larger and you start needing a second Dread for a clean kill but it's still very doable and anyone running without significant Logi presence is just going to keel over and die.

Go talk to the Wormhole people about what you can do with Dread-blapping, it's pretty hilarious in a sad kind of way.
Cade Windstalker
#200 - 2014-02-25 17:02:26 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Destoya wrote:
Thoughts on adding an according bonus to EW/Repair drones on the guristas ships?

Giving people the option to sacrifice the damage drones in their meager drone bay for added utility from the other drones without being completely let down by the bandwith restriction makes for interesting fitting choices.

Also I must ask how you intend to deal with the Gila and Rattlesnake if you are going to give them a 300% bonus and 50m3 bandwith to launch two large size drones, since 5 mediums/lights bonused like that would be incredibly powerful against smaller targets as well as targets in the same size class.


They could limit the number of drones controlled. Its an awkward fix though


Or just limit the bonus to the intended size of drone as a trade-off for the size of the bonus.