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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#141 - 2014-02-25 16:14:22 UTC
a problem with the blood raider line is that lasers use more fitting than neuts/nos do ...

i would think it would make sense if the lines bonus of laser damage was actually forced on it rather than allowing full racks of neuts and nos .. seems a bit odd too me that a bonus is effectively a very optional thing rather than a more incumbent usage..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#142 - 2014-02-25 16:15:01 UTC
jonnykefka wrote:
The Guristas rebalance worries me a bit. Drones as a weapons system are kind of in flux right now, it looks like they're on the docket for huge revamps in the not-too-distant future (or so we hope) and there's lots of issues with how they work now. I particularly noted the comment from a Goon a few pages back about how it's an invitation to make an assist fleet with the Gila or Rattlesnake with the new cap of 50 drones. Maybe you know something I don't, but this seems like a direction that will lead to either a broken ship line that dominates doctrines or something that becomes largely irrelevant when drones as a whole get revamped.

The assisted drone thing heavily relies on being able to use a sentry drone, which of course is 25 bandwidth and the Worm will only be able to field 10 bandwidth. That said, I understand your concern. I just don't think it is something to worry about too much right now considering they are only changing a few numbers, which can be easily adjusted later down the road when a full blown drone rebalance is done.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#143 - 2014-02-25 16:15:08 UTC
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
I hate it when they mess with the ships I like. They could have rebalanced by adding new ships, affordable ones!
People want more content not nit picking the bits we already have and messing up loadouts.


No, I'm pretty sure people want existing content to be balanced. Just because you like flying your OP ship doesn't mean it's fun for others to fly against something that's OP. There is no amount of adding new ships that is going to make something currently OP not OP, and it certainly won't make something that sucks better by association (somehow, magically!)


New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.


u mean power creep?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#144 - 2014-02-25 16:15:24 UTC
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others
That is a very self serving attitude
Sadew42
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#145 - 2014-02-25 16:15:26 UTC
Suggestions:

Sansha:
-Small shield HP bonus
Reason: From my experience, the Phantasm is very easy to put a few Large Shield Extenders onto, I haven't tried anything with the Succubus or Nightmare, though.
-Tracking disruption bonus
Reason: Keeps it in line with actual Sansha NPC ships. Would probably be hard to fit though, and so not very important.

Blood Raiders:
-Web effectiveness and web range, 50/50
Reason: Energy neutralizers have a rather short range. A bonus to web range won't really matter for these ships. Neuts prefer a ship that can get in range fast and then hold the prey down. Long range webs fit with Minmatar ships, but not very well with short range energy neutralizers. If you insist on longer web range, though, a range bonus to neut/nos modules would also be needed.
-Cruor *possibly* needs an extra mid slot
Reason: The Cruor needs a propulsion module, a web and a warp scram/disruptor, and a cap booster. However, with the changes to Nos always working, this is probably no longer an issue, time will see.

Guristas:
-Small drone speed bonus could be beneficial
Reason: Tough, high damage drones are nice, but for the worm at least they need to be quick and fast in order to keep up with the pace of small-ship battles. Drone navigation computers compete with the 2 to 3 free mid slots (scram/web) already which would most likely get used for tank. I don't fly drone ships much, though, and so this probably isn't a big deal.

Other Thoughts:
Are there any plans to make a Caldari and Minmatar ship line like the Sisters of EVE? It feels kind of bogus that there's the SoE ship for Gallente and Amarr pilots now, bringing it to 3 Amarr hybrids and 4 Gallente hybrids, and although there are 3 Minmatar hybrids, there are only 2 Caldari hybrids. I'll leave the line's theme up to you guys, though I think a copy of the SoE line for Caldari and Minmatar pilots would be nice. I hope there's something like that in the future.
LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#146 - 2014-02-25 16:16:40 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:

In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.


You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken.

I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing.
bubble trout
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#147 - 2014-02-25 16:16:51 UTC
Pretty cool changes. I have only one question at this time, are the resists staying the same?
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2014-02-25 16:17:06 UTC
If I'm reading this right, you're saying that you'd be locking the Guristas ships into damage types (thermal and kinetic) for maximum effectiveness, essentially relegating them to a semi-Caldari feel with regards to their new primary weapons system (missiles). On top of that (once again, going by your claim), you'd be allowing them to field only two drones at once, with a bonus to the power of the drones (so the Rattlesnake would get to field two Ogres with a 300% increase to damage and hit points).

No.

Missile ships see little use outside of PvE. You might see solo or small gangs, but there's little to no fleet doctrine with them. It doesn't matter if you get a pure missile damage bonus, it won't change this fact. Guristas are drone boats with a secondary in missiles. They have been. I take the Worm out all the time for fun, and I'll tell you it is always amusing. What you are proposing is a substantial nerf to a faction that already sees limited PvP.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.
Cade Windstalker
#149 - 2014-02-25 16:17:50 UTC
Breselyer AnDu wrote:

New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.


Which is a poor approach to design. For a start that's power-creep right there. Second it leaves us with a lot of useless ships that no one wants to fly because they don't fit the new higher power-average. Hence, things get rebalanced. Get over it, it's not going to stop happening.
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2014-02-25 16:18:26 UTC
Also, echoing what one or two others have said, I kind of wanted to see Guristas Jam
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#151 - 2014-02-25 16:18:50 UTC
Changes look nice, but I would change the

Quote:
SUCCUBUS

Amarr Frigate Bonus:
20% bonus to Afterburner velocity bonus (was 5% energy turret damage)

Caldari Frigate Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Small Energy Turret tracking speed


Switch the Amarr and Caldari bonus, it makes no sense for Caldari Frigates to give bonus to an Amarr weapon system. In the previous version of the succubus it was the lesser of two evils, but now it makes more sense lore wise to switch them around I think.

Baddest poster ever
Cade Windstalker
#152 - 2014-02-25 16:22:28 UTC
LT Alter wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:

In larger fleets, the 90% web is what allows dreads to hit ahacs. And frigates.


You obviously have little experience flying dreads, signature resolution makes that a nearly impossible task. The hitting value is not determined just by the relative velocity and range it has to do with gun resolution and sig radius as well which makes hitting these ships with a dread hard even at 0 velocity. The other fact is that this is the medium sized warfare I was referring to, fights of less than 100-200 people where a smaller gang can operate and fight the larger gang using it's resources to it's advantage. Blap dreads are a highly effective way to counter numbers and comes with so many down sides to using that that they are no where near broken.

I am a major advocate for any and all mechanics that support quality over quantity in eve, blap dreads not only require expensive fits and a large amount of skill points but they require great teamwork and skilled pilots that know what they're doing.


Or you can just park a dread or two, some 90% webs, and a bunch of Lokis or Rapiers on a gate and pop everything that comes through as frigates are ballooned up to over 1000 sig radius.

Plus none of this is really quality over quantity because if I can drop a big enough fleet, of anything, to melt your dreads they're going to die, probably shortly after the support fleet. It's not a tactic for smaller groups to take on significantly larger ones, it's a cheesy way to basically score free kills on anyone who isn't mashing a Cyno to hot-drop you before they blow up.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#153 - 2014-02-25 16:23:07 UTC
ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB?
Breselyer AnDu
Ashab Alliance
#154 - 2014-02-25 16:23:33 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:

New ships, if my ship is OP then add new equals. People can vote with their feet (or their isk) buy the new "better balanced" ships or stick to the ones you like. No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others, just give them something with comparable levels of benefits.


Which is a poor approach to design. For a start that's power-creep right there. Second it leaves us with a lot of useless ships that no one wants to fly because they don't fit the new higher power-average. Hence, things get rebalanced. Get over it, it's not going to stop happening.



The market would adjust to their relative benefits. The old ships would come down in price giving people a cheaper alternative at a spec cost, the new ships could be balanced along the lines suggested now so no creep unless this rebalance is creep?


Rowells wrote:
Breselyer AnDu wrote:
No need to mess with what I fly to be fair to others
That is a very self serving attitude


How is suggesting everyone gets new better ships self serving?
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#155 - 2014-02-25 16:23:45 UTC
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Sorry, I think the worm needs major revision. In the least, the bonuses should aid the worm as a drone support ship. Give a bonus to repping and ewar drones instead of just damage. Hell, this could even give gurista a special niche as the only race where ewar drones are good. 2 bonus webbing drones could actually slow a target and not face a stacking penalty that renders the 4th and 5th drones useless.


This is a great idea, but if you do this, keep the gigantic bonus to two drones, so that the stacking penalty is irrelevant. Two web drones with a 300% bonus, with one of them stacking penalized to ~89% effectiveness, would be something else.

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I voted in CSM X!
CompleteFailure
DAWGS Corp.
#156 - 2014-02-25 16:25:20 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

2 light, 300% bonus = 8 effective (remember they already do 100% dmg before bonus :P)
+1


Itago Gemulus wrote:
2 drones +300% = 2+6 (2=100% ->300%=6) for a total of 8 effective drones


It's 6 effective drones. You're not adding 300%, you're multiplying by 300%

300% = 3.00

2*3.00 = 6

learn2maths
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#157 - 2014-02-25 16:26:26 UTC
Rowells wrote:
ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB?



im guessing at 2km/s ish..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
SkyMeetFire
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2014-02-25 16:26:35 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Additionally, the former missile velocity bonus will change to kinetic and thermal missile damage, giving Guristas even more punch. I understand that you will need specifics on the other two Guristas ships to make final opinions on the theme, but for now just look at the Worm and let us know if it seems fun and we'll go from there.


I would imagine you would do similar to the Rattlesnake and Gila as you did the Worm, a 300% damage and HP buff to 2 drones. The problem for the Gila is medium drones generally suck DPS wise and are in dire need of a balance pass which could/would put the Gila in an awkward spot if it is balanced for use with medium drones before medium drones are re-done.
A similar situation for the Rattlesnake will come up as it is usually Sentries or bust with large drones.


I'd imagine they'd do 20 bandwidth for the Gila which than brings up the possibility of running an effective 16 small drones (4 small +300% bonus) vs a regular cruisers effective 7.5 small drones (5 + 25%). And the 16 smalls would always be better than 8 mediums, as they do more damage, would have better tracking, and have better speed to apply that damage quicker.

Expanding to the Rattlesnake, at 50 bandwidth we could be seeing a BS with 20 effective smalls or medium drones. That's pretty nuts from an anti-tackle or anti-support role, regardless of what its other bonii are.

Not saying that's what they'll end up doing, but I find the idea pretty damn hilarious and massively OP. But either way its an interesting idea to mix things up. I'd guess they'd do something like reduce to +200% for the Gila, and +100% for the Rattle, and tweak the bandwidth to keep things from getting out of hand.

As far as the others, at first I didn't really like the AB bonus on the Sansha, but the more I think about it, the more it fits. Neither race are known for great speed, but the lower cap use of the AB fits great with the higher use of Lasers and Shields, and a 100% bonus might be just enough to make it competitive. Will really require some testing/efting to be sure.

The Cruor bonus change is fantastic, should make it actually somewhat viable now. I'd probably like to see a 4th low rather than the 2 drones though, they seem like an unnecessary addition.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-02-25 16:27:11 UTC
Rowells wrote:
ok since im having a hard time figuring out these numbers and how they stack, what would be the final afterburner bonus on a succubus for a fully skilled pilot using T2 AB?

It makes it to about 2300m/s

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Zamyslinski
Beach Boys
The Minions.
#160 - 2014-02-25 16:27:11 UTC
Buff sancha capacitor and add a shield boost bonus like sleipnir's vaga's


like really those ships are shield tanked brawlers i think a tanking bonus would be totally in place.