EVE General Discussion

It does lead to an interesting disconnect. I hadn't run many missions (Including Storyline) before and had focussed on PI, Hauling and so on. Things that you do with other players. Background skill training, etc.

So, when my friends asked me to refine for them they were like: "What's your standing like?" and I was like "Oh, not too bad. It's like 1.07 or something!" and, as you can imagine, they laughed.

I can fly a Caldari Battleship at V, a Jump Freighter at (I think) III and have the support skills for most of the ships in-between reasonably trained at 35 million skillpoints and have absolutely no standing with anybody Some things you learn later in life ...

@Kaarus Aldurald, I am sorry about the misquote, I'm very noob when it comes to forum PVP

@eran, thx for your answer. I understand that almost if not all activities in EVE can be framed as PVP. My take is that the game offers a combination of competition and cooporation. For instance in a fleet battle, the pilots cooporate in competitive fleets; the competition between the fleets can be said to be PVP, while the cooporation within the fleet is not.

When I write PVP in my previous posts, I mean ship-on-ship combat, where the ships are player owned.

Given that all activities are PVP, one of the problems with an increase in game time covered by war is that some types of PVP is less available. It is not (as) viable to engage in mining PVP when war decced for instance. This is sometimes (but rarely I find in high sec) the purpose, to shift one type of PVP for another.

The balances in EVE has never really been static, and I think it's somewhat simplistic to claim that "this is EVE" because of that (not saying that you claim this btw). The content of "this is EVE" has been changing over the years. With the change in the war dec mechanic for instance, I claim that it has become more difficult to get an industrial minded group together and create something in high sec.

I may be wrong, I don't know the numbers, but I believe that there are relatively more hours spend under war in high sec now than before. This is not all a bad thing of course, as it may influence the market in positive ways for several reasons, but I believe that it makes it more difficult for new players that are not so interested in ship-on-ship combat between players. It is now much more difficult to build and maintain the industrial minded groups you mention. This benefits already established groups of course, new competition is harder to get going.

I base my views on experience coming back to EVE from a two year absense, and on the high sec war deccing corporations/alliances with a huge number of concurrent wars. I don't want war decs removed or anything like that. EVE is a game, and for this reason wars can be declared where the proces of war is the purpose of the war. In other words, the war cannot really be won or lost, cause it has no other purpose than itself (plain gaming fun). There's no condition to meassure if the war is lost or won, and I find that a lot of wars in high sec is of this type. I think this kind of gameplay should be allowed, but I also hope that CCP is aware that if it is too predominant, it could hurt the influx of new players of a certain kind.

I would prefer if EVE had less of these kinds of wars, and more wars that has a more meaningful purpose within the framework of the EVE universe. That they could actually be ended when certain conditions are met. A war for a POS spot, or a POCO is meaningful in this regard. Maybe a war mechanic could be build around that, but it may become too restrictive and difficult to manage.

Some players will argue that if you don't enjoy playing under conditions of war, maybe you should not play the game at all. Or maybe just play the game in a manner that I believe has consequences that hurt the coorporative side of EVE. These players will be more isolated in smaller or NPC corporations. Again making it harder to create the industrial minded corps in the high sec setting.

Of course that may be the entire point of the balance change, to make industry and mission running harder to do in high sec.

I have indeed tried to do exactly what you suggest, getting pilots and corps together decced by the same small griefing corporation. If the people in corporations were PVP oriented in the first place it would be a lot easier, but they are exactly targeted because they are not. I find that it is only a very small fraction of these pilots that wish to partake in the test of patience that is high sec war. While the deccers play EVE to blow up vulnerable isolated targets, the vulnerable isolated targets often play EVE to manufacture, mine and generally having a relaxed time with good people. I fail to see how more of this type of pilot can hurt the combat PVP oriented people.

The act of war deccing a high sec,industrial, new player friendly corporation is not in itself unfair. It can introduce new players to PVP combat and has other benefits too. War has consequences, as it should have. When war becomes a too often occurance you have to play under in high sec, EVE becomes less of a game, and while EVE may attract more paying accounts, it could fail attracting enough new players.

You're entitled to think whatever you wish.

Me too!

but wow! You're super hostile!

All because I say in the land of choices, those who choose to mistreat others are unworthy of respect.

and then you come and disrespect me by saying I deserve to be insulted.

I think you need to see someone. I'm going to pretend like I don't know what's wrong with you and suggest that there might be something wrong with you.

@ Remiel: I can defend myself if needed but determined it's unnecessary. Ignore the troll and eventually it'll go away.

@ Karon: I do agree with you on a lot of points. Namely that war-decs are now more common with less meaningful purpose. Personally I'd like to see the fees lowered against large alliances as this could allow for more fights over POCOs and other things large entities control. However POCO warfare is broken in itself and that's another topic.

I disagree with the common notion that if you don't enjoy playing while at war then just don't play, however it's healthy to always be prepared for war.

To prepare doesnt just mean having combat skills trained. Think of it as a fire escape plan. Before you get in that terrible situation, create a plan beforehand of how you will handle it. Don't have combat pilots? Fine, focus on evasion. Teach your pilots the importance of instant-warp bookmarks from the undock of stations. I can happily tell you more about these if needed as they are hugely important both in hisec and everywhere else you'll find a station. Scouting is also just as important. There's three character slots per account, so if you're not using them create an alt that can watch important areas for possible hostiles. That way you know what's around you before you're neck deep in trouble. Scouting gets easier when you have more people, of course. I also mentioned jumpclones somewhere around page 12/13 and those can be a huge help if you're camped by instalocking hostiles.

Keep in mind that people wardec easy targets. Most hisec griefers want to do minimal work for their kills also. Make your enemy work more for less and make yourself a hard target. Make sure people dont autopilot when at war and dont afk mine/mission unless they really have to. Mission in high population areas if you want to be harder to single out with scan probes, or mission in off-the-beaten path systems if your enemy doesnt use locator agents. Finally, dont be afraid to do things in lowsec. Hisec PVPers are risk adverse and likely wont follow you to lowsec because they themselves fear it. Not particularly because lowsec is scary, but because the griefers tend to be less capable in PVP. Lowsec also has the added benefit of having lower traffick/population making it easier to be aware of your surroundings (of course cynos make that awareness imperfect, but you can still be smart and avoid hotdrops), and not have to scroll through 50-100 names to see if hostiles are in local.

I understand your argument and concerns and would be happy to help more. Let me know what ofher issues you have.

Trolling post removed.

I am a new player. Let's get that out in the open right now. Been in EVE about a month. My assessment is that the current EVE environment discourages new players from playing the game more than it does encourage them to stay. I will offer a few observations along these lines.

My first observation is that for new players, the risks inherent in the EVE environment are not sufficiently offset by gains. And this flaw is compounded by (or is it inherent in?) the fact that gains given to experienced players who exploit new players are not sufficiently offset by risk. The result is experienced players spending their time preying on the weak because that activity is subsidized by the system itself (it is profitable, rather than coming at a cost).

Now, there may be those who suggest that the system doesn't subsidize anything, but that it's the players who are responsible. Well, yes, and no. Players will do what they enjoy. They will do what they want. They will maximize their profit, or maximize their fun, whichever they choose to do. Both, if they can. But they do these always—and unavoidably—within the framework provided them. If CCP wants a steady influx of new blood, it will create a framework in which such is incentivized. Right now, it has the opposite, in my opinion—the system encourages the exploitation of the weak. That's all fine and dandy for the veterans, but CCP shouldn't expect new players to stick around when the costs for them to do so are so steep, and the benefits for the gankers so bloated.

Another conclusion is that the skills training system is very discouraging—even punitive. MMO Players—perhaps not all, but likely most—favor a framework that allows them to increase in skill commensurate to the time they are willing/able to devote to activities that increase skills. This leaves players with a sense that the value of their game time is self-determined; if a player wants to increase in skill, he chooses to do those things that result in skill increases; if he does not want to increase in skill, he chooses other activities. The framework in EVE does not reward players in this way. There are pre-set times (you can plot the dates on a calendar!) for when certain things will become available to you. Well, where is the fun in that? Only the most patient and disciplined people out there will continue to play a game once they realize that they have no choice but to have a sub-standard and dissatisfying experience for the first umpteen months of gameplay! I think EVE's skills system is a poorly-conceived one, and one that likely prevents many people from staying with the game beyond the trial period, or the first month of paid game time.

Well, that's enough for now, I guess.

Your post was a stated agreement with mine (presumably), but I didn't intend to say, nor do I believe I said, that EVE isn't fun. I was trying only to speak to the topic of CCP being able to maintain a stream of paying new players. Personally, I think the game is fun. I believe it is so because I am a patient person who enjoys defeating the system. I feel that playing EVE is as much about overcoming the constraints placed upon players by the devs (always within the EULA, of course) as it is about conquering other players, or whatever other reason a person finds to play an MMO.

But I don't think that I'm "most people." Others, who may not see the fun that awaits them (after some time has passed), or who may not see the fun inherent in the journey, may turn away, having expected things to be handed to them and finding that they would not be.

Don't get me wrong, I've lost my ships in EVE and have seen the proverbial writing on the wall. I am consigned to the fact that I will be a lesser citizen—and at greater risk constantly because of it—until some time has passed. But EVE, for all its faults (which it has), compels me to face the challenge, and win. It is the challenge that I find enjoyable. And if I find—at some future time, after I have gained the skills I feel now that I need—that the framework of the game constrains me too much, forcing me to be something that I do not want to be, then I'll move on. Until then, though, I'm planning on ignoring the (frankly) stupid aspects of the game, and leveraging its awesomeness, which, to me, it has in great measure. Fun? Heck yeah. Perfect? No. I plan on giving it a good run, myself.

It probably depends on your perspective, and on how you define "fun." Because of the constraints of the EVE framework, I won't be a threat to anyone in a PvP situation for a while, but I can still find fun in outsmarting the gankers, for all their skills and implants, etc. That's fun. And even if they eventually overtake and kill you, at least you have the satisfaction of having made them work for it, when they are probably so used to just mowing people over. Besides, there is more fun to be had in EVE at any given time than just combat PvP.

But we're getting off-topic. The OP is about CCP's inability (apparent) to get and keep new players. I do believe that increasing the risk associated with making new players' lives miserable would help new players at least perceive that CCP wants them to stay. As it is, it seems that the message is, "New Eden is for people who have been playing for years. If you can endure all the pain we've programmed into the game, then we want you to stay, too."

You can say that, but everyone here started out as a newbie. We didn't just spawn into the game with 30+ million skillpoints and hundreds of millions of isk.

If I had to do it, you had better give me a damned good reason why you think you shouldn't have to.

There is no inability, apparent or otherwise. The game has a hefty learning curve, but it's about attitude as much as it is about game mechanics. Despite this, the game continues to grow, as it has for a long, long time.

Karak,

+1 to what Kimmi wrote and I'd also add that many players who themselves start in Eve-Uni, one of the Brave Newbie corps or RvB eventually move into other Corps and take that spirit of helping and assisting new players with them.

RvB is less a structured learning environment and more a place to find similarly skilled pilots to fight against, but both Eve-Uni and Brave Newbies are structured specifically to assist new players, with Eve-Uni having a very broad set of activities in highsec,lowsec nullsec and wormhole space.

What all 3 of these Corps and Alliances have created is not only places of there own for new players, but graduates and former members who are all too willing no matter which Corp they are in, to help new players learn the game while having a heap of fun.

If you are struggling, I would definitely recommend giving any of those 3 a try, or find another player Corp that will help. The only thing required is a good attitude and respect for others. Some Corps provide ships and skill books for free, so you gain off the efforts of the more experienced players who grind the ISK.