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Which factions are crossovers between which "empires" lore wise?

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Hexatron Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-02-24 14:21:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Hexatron Ormand
Hello,

i have been looking through some lore, to find the different factions, and on what empire races they may be founded on, from a capsuleer point of view (we all know and love those faction cross over ships).

So what we definately know cause the ships are in game:

Guristas - Caldari + Gallente

Sansha - Caldari + Amarr

Angel Carte - Gallente + Minmatar

Serpentis - Gallente + Minmatar

Sisters of Eve - Gallente + Amarr

Blood Raider - Minmatar + Amarr

Mordu's Legion - Gallente + Caldari

Lore wise, SOE seems to be an open mix between any though, as it is more something like the red cross of eve, taking on anyone who wants to be with them (at least from reading the nicely written books that are out there).

That leaves us with:


The Syndicate - lore wise, i would guess on gallente, caldari crossover?

The Society - Jovian based

Equilibrium of Mankind - Amarr for sure..and then what? Caldari oder Gallente for the blasters/rails?



What other factions are out there, that i may be missing out on? Is there any faction that is actually based on Minmatar + Caldari? That one seems to be left out or was never mentioned anywhere.
Maxim Hibra
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-02-24 16:14:35 UTC
EoM flies Amarr ships with shield tank and railguns, so they seem to be Amarr/Caldari.
Mordu's Legion is derived from a group of Intaki who sided with the Caldari during the Gallente-Caldari war and became mercenaries afterwards, but still maintain close ties to the State. So if they'll ever get faction ships, they'll probably be Caldar/Gallente.
There is no indication of the Syndicate being a crossover with any faction other than Gallente, though if they did get their own faction ships they'd presumably be made into one to fit with the other pirate factions. Eighter Gallente/Minmatar or Gallente/Caldari?
SoC is Jovian-based. Gnosis is supposed to be an SoC ship. Seems they don't have as advanced tech as the Jovian empire proper, as the stats for Jovian ships are insanely good.
CCP Delegate Zero
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2014-02-25 14:07:29 UTC
Maxim Hibra wrote:

SoC is Jovian-based. Gnosis is supposed to be an SoC ship. Seems they don't have as advanced tech as the Jovian empire proper, as the stats for Jovian ships are insanely good.


That anyone other than they or the Jove know about or has been released to people outside the Society... Blink

CCP Delegate Zero | Content Designer - Writer | @CCPDelegateZero
CCP Logibro
C C P
C C P Alliance
#4 - 2014-02-25 15:57:33 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Maxim Hibra wrote:

SoC is Jovian-based. Gnosis is supposed to be an SoC ship. Seems they don't have as advanced tech as the Jovian empire proper, as the stats for Jovian ships are insanely good.


That anyone other than they or the Jove know about or has been released to people outside the Society... Blink


That the Who know about?

CCP Logibro // EVE Universe Community Team // Distributor of Nanites // Patron Saint of Logistics

@CCP_Logibro
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#5 - 2014-02-25 16:26:56 UTC
I think the Amarr Empire should set out to show everyone that the Jove are just a myth by, uhm, misplacing another fleet?
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#6 - 2014-02-25 17:04:59 UTC
So. All else aside, we need to figure out who'd be a missile-y Cal/Min mix so that we can get Rise and Fozzie to push for their inclusion.

...what if we -did- make Mordus ships Cal/Min? Caldari because that's their dominant supporter, and Min because they have to jury rig/trust in rust/hopefully kite and hit fast? We could explain it by Mordus operating against Serpentis forces and 'forcefully acquiring'/salvaging Guardian/Shadow gear, and culling development specifications/technology from the Angels?

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-02-25 17:12:23 UTC
i'd never understood why the blood raiders are part minmatar, do they have an open policy for slaves or something?, emancipating their slaves and allow them to take revenge on the empire or something?

the Syndicate is Intaki based, so they're fundamentally Gallente, but as they manage the black/grey market (i dont remember), then they must have members of the other empires, even from the pirate organizations....i guess they have a large influx of Serpentis and Angel subordinates....
Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#8 - 2014-02-25 17:52:34 UTC
Karkun;

A lot of this isn't -who- flies the ship so much as the technology involved.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#9 - 2014-02-26 11:38:37 UTC
Silivar Karkun wrote:

the Syndicate is Intaki based, so they're fundamentally Gallente, but as they manage the black/grey market (i dont remember), then they must have members of the other empires, even from the pirate organizations....i guess they have a large influx of Serpentis and Angel subordinates....


Intaki Syndicate is fundamentally anti-Gallente, pro-Angel and pro-Serpentis; as such they probably wouldn't be designing their own ships, but using existing Guardian Angel designs.

Tl;dr, Gallente + Minmatar.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#10 - 2014-03-02 00:03:42 UTC
Well the Amarrian's are done with a mix of the Knights of Templar (military) and Islamic expansionism (government), which is all part of CCP's PR campaign to sell them as "bad guys" by pandering to classic nerdy anti-religious fervor and classical white-guy xenophobia. *golf clap*

This is the same PR firm that tries to sell the Republic as the "good guys" by painting them as eternal victims and a society falling squarely in the Hollywood slurp-fest of Native American worship as seen in films like "Avatar," again pandering to classic knee-jerk white-guy liberalism and completely ignoring any interesting not-so-coincidental similarities between the Minmatar tribes and, oh yeah, the real life Mongol horde that killed more people than everything else in the world.

Also on the PR table is trying to somehow link all the doctrines of extreme free-market capitalism with a vision of an oppressive, totalitarian state, which is something any sensible person would look at and say "lolwut?" but somehow they've managed to pull it off with the Caldari - again painting "bad guy" over knee-jerk white-guy anger at Wall Street and economic injustice.

And finally, the most boring of real-world models is obviously the Federation, designed from the get-go to lure in every naive wannabe political activist in the world with their democratic idealism and love of "freedom" ... though here I gotta say CCP did a pretty good job, because they've been mirroring the USA too closely, with "freedom" not applying to dissidents, people disappearing to the secret police and constantly trying to shove their ideals of "freedom" down everyone else's throats at the point of a gun. So this really was nicely done, actually.

Oh sorry, we're we talking about crossovers between in-game empire or crossovers between in-game empire and real life empires? Oppsie!

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Roxx Martin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-04-13 06:21:07 UTC
CCP Delegate Zero wrote:
Maxim Hibra wrote:

SoC is Jovian-based. Gnosis is supposed to be an SoC ship. Seems they don't have as advanced tech as the Jovian empire proper, as the stats for Jovian ships are insanely good.


That anyone other than they or the Jove know about or has been released to people outside the Society... Blink



I'd definitely like to see the Jovians come into their true light as the very best creators of human augmentations in New Eden.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#12 - 2014-04-14 07:55:36 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Well the Amarrian's are done with a mix of the Knights of Templar (military) and Islamic expansionism (government), which is all part of CCP's PR campaign to sell them as "bad guys" by pandering to classic nerdy anti-religious fervor and classical white-guy xenophobia. *golf clap*

This is the same PR firm that tries to sell the Republic as the "good guys" by painting them as eternal victims and a society falling squarely in the Hollywood slurp-fest of Native American worship as seen in films like "Avatar," again pandering to classic knee-jerk white-guy liberalism and completely ignoring any interesting not-so-coincidental similarities between the Minmatar tribes and, oh yeah, the real life Mongol horde that killed more people than everything else in the world.

Also on the PR table is trying to somehow link all the doctrines of extreme free-market capitalism with a vision of an oppressive, totalitarian state, which is something any sensible person would look at and say "lolwut?" but somehow they've managed to pull it off with the Caldari - again painting "bad guy" over knee-jerk white-guy anger at Wall Street and economic injustice.

And finally, the most boring of real-world models is obviously the Federation, designed from the get-go to lure in every naive wannabe political activist in the world with their democratic idealism and love of "freedom" ... though here I gotta say CCP did a pretty good job, because they've been mirroring the USA too closely, with "freedom" not applying to dissidents, people disappearing to the secret police and constantly trying to shove their ideals of "freedom" down everyone else's throats at the point of a gun. So this really was nicely done, actually.

Oh sorry, we're we talking about crossovers between in-game empire or crossovers between in-game empire and real life empires? Oppsie!


Ah yes, the "bad guys" who want to save everyone, just slightly misguided and the "good guys", who send war ships into their best ally's territory on a rampage because of a legal dispute and who in the lore aren't above torturing Amarr to death, even in cases where is it isn't really necessary.

I think you see everything through a lens which turns everything into stark black and white, which is hilarious. And wrong.
Precentor Saggitus
Planet Express Transport
#13 - 2014-04-19 16:37:23 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:

Also on the PR table is trying to somehow link all the doctrines of extreme free-market capitalism with a vision of an oppressive, totalitarian state, which is something any sensible person would look at and say "lolwut?" but somehow they've managed to pull it off with the Caldari - again painting "bad guy" over knee-jerk white-guy anger at Wall Street and economic injustice.



Actually the established lore paints the Caldari State as anything but a free market capitalist, but rather the dangers that lurk behind what one may term Corporate Feudalism. The only thing that's odd about the State is how it has a State Navy, which would be hard to imagine having much power, but rather the one should see power invested in the Corporate Militaries (Ishukone Watch, et. al.)

Either way, none of the Factions could be considered "good" though I guess the Gallente come the closes by espousing democracy. The tough thing to think about is how such societies would evolve along an interstellar scale. There is probably an inconceivable amount of people living in New Eden. Every constellation, every solar system and every planet will probably have some variation in its society from the standard empire template. The hardest society on such a scale to imagine I find would be the tribal based Minmatar, just due to size. Socially people evolve out of a tribal state when their numbers increase (for reading on the subject, Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel is interesting) so for such tribalism to evolve on such a scale is hard to imagine. Much less that it would retain coherency on such a scale. One could imagine the "Republic" being very fragmented at best.

The Other Three Empires have much more plausible evolving historical arcs. On such a galactic scale it would be easy to see the events which would lead to their formation. Even though the Amarr might be seen as "evil" its plausible to see that such a society may evolve given the circumstances of interstellar survival in the wake of the EVE gate.

Few people understand the psycology of a highway traffic cop. Your average speeder will panic and immediately pull over to the side. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the cop heart. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow.
Publius Valerius
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#14 - 2014-04-20 08:12:13 UTC
I always asked myself why CCP not just added a "place holder skill faction". Like Jove racial skill, but without the ships. I would give the pirate faction a deeper meaning plus it would mean a greater skill-point-sink with a greater specialization. Something what you actually want in a game.

Let me explain what I mean. Currently the pirate faction are the most improve ships which there is (see here). They show also next to Tech II, the second greatest specialization. But with only one draw back, which is the other racial skill. But that is the thing, it isnt really a drawback, as those skills are useful. Those skill enable you to fly tech I and later tech II ships of this second faction. So my suggestion would be, that CCP should/would add a placeholder faction. To show: YOU SKILL FOR ANGEL SHIP, YOU HAVE A DRAWBACK (YOU MUST KILL JOVE BATTLESHIP I, WHICH IS USELESS OTHERWISE). It would make balancing along the races also easier (but just a suggestion from a bloody amateur).

Angel=Minmatar+placeholder-skill (Jove for example)
Blood Raiders=Amarr+placeholder-skill (Publius hits random name generator: Val)
Guristas=Caldari+placeholder-skill (Publius hits random name generator: Val)
Serpentis=Gallente+placeholder-skill (Publius hits random name generator: Val)

Sansha=Caldari+placeholder-skill (Jove for example)
Sisters=Gallente+placeholder-skill (Jove for example)

To make the numbers of racial skills used round, CCP could then add:
EOM=Amarr+placeholder-skill (Jove for example)
Bloody Hand of Matar=Minmatar+placeholder-skill (Publius hits random name generator: Val)

That why we would have every racial option two times. Ones going with the Jove and ones going with Val. Of course both skills would be otherwise USELESS. Big smile But I think the outcry in the community would be to great for this. Big smile

I would love to have those classes ingame. See here:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376566/march-07-2011/joshua-foer
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#15 - 2014-04-20 11:03:12 UTC
Precentor Saggitus wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:

Also on the PR table is trying to somehow link all the doctrines of extreme free-market capitalism with a vision of an oppressive, totalitarian state, which is something any sensible person would look at and say "lolwut?" but somehow they've managed to pull it off with the Caldari - again painting "bad guy" over knee-jerk white-guy anger at Wall Street and economic injustice.



Actually the established lore paints the Caldari State as anything but a free market capitalist, but rather the dangers that lurk behind what one may term Corporate Feudalism. The only thing that's odd about the State is how it has a State Navy, which would be hard to imagine having much power, but rather the one should see power invested in the Corporate Militaries (Ishukone Watch, et. al.)

Either way, none of the Factions could be considered "good" though I guess the Gallente come the closes by espousing democracy. The tough thing to think about is how such societies would evolve along an interstellar scale. There is probably an inconceivable amount of people living in New Eden. Every constellation, every solar system and every planet will probably have some variation in its society from the standard empire template. The hardest society on such a scale to imagine I find would be the tribal based Minmatar, just due to size. Socially people evolve out of a tribal state when their numbers increase (for reading on the subject, Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel is interesting) so for such tribalism to evolve on such a scale is hard to imagine. Much less that it would retain coherency on such a scale. One could imagine the "Republic" being very fragmented at best.

The Other Three Empires have much more plausible evolving historical arcs. On such a galactic scale it would be easy to see the events which would lead to their formation. Even though the Amarr might be seen as "evil" its plausible to see that such a society may evolve given the circumstances of interstellar survival in the wake of the EVE gate.


I should point out that a nation is just another kind of tribe (larger, more complex). A tribal state lead by elders like the Minmatar Republic is just a fanciful named oligarchy.
Precentor Saggitus
Planet Express Transport
#16 - 2014-04-28 23:57:19 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:

I should point out that a nation is just another kind of tribe (larger, more complex). A tribal state lead by elders like the Minmatar Republic is just a fanciful named oligarchy.


I suppose if you want to look at it that way yes. The idea behind a "tribal" group however is that the members of the tribe are blood relatives, when a society increases in size to preclude such familial bonds between most members, it ceases to have a tribal aspect to it. An Elder in a tribal society derives their power often due to the common family bonds with the members of the tribe that they "rule" or adjudicate. Any disputes within the group can be settled this way, since both parties to any dispute will have such a common reverence for said Elder.

As I said, this particular flavor of society doesn't translate well when it comes to a society that has an interstellar scope. In my opinion at least.

One should note that the other Galactic societies have a means of reasonably assimilating other cultures within them. In lore, the tribal nature of the Minmatar is a sort of a block to this. Its easy to see how the greater Gallente society could absorb or assimilate the Intaki, The Jin Mei, and at one time the Civre and the Deteis. How the Caldari could take the Achura into its fold, how the Amarr have conquered or turned into client races the Khanid, the Ni-Kunni., the Ammatar. Lore wise, we can grow those societies and retcon new ones in there. The Minmatar makes this a bit tough since the tribes by nature of their origins are stuck all originating on Matar itself. It would be tough to imagine separate tribal societies emerging independently on separate planets and in separate solar systems.

Few people understand the psycology of a highway traffic cop. Your average speeder will panic and immediately pull over to the side. This is wrong. It arouses contempt in the cop heart. Make the bastard chase you. He will follow.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#17 - 2014-04-29 00:37:37 UTC
Precentor Saggitus wrote:
Owen Levanth wrote:

I should point out that a nation is just another kind of tribe (larger, more complex). A tribal state lead by elders like the Minmatar Republic is just a fanciful named oligarchy.


I suppose if you want to look at it that way yes. The idea behind a "tribal" group however is that the members of the tribe are blood relatives, when a society increases in size to preclude such familial bonds between most members, it ceases to have a tribal aspect to it. An Elder in a tribal society derives their power often due to the common family bonds with the members of the tribe that they "rule" or adjudicate. Any disputes within the group can be settled this way, since both parties to any dispute will have such a common reverence for said Elder.

As I said, this particular flavor of society doesn't translate well when it comes to a society that has an interstellar scope. In my opinion at least.

One should note that the other Galactic societies have a means of reasonably assimilating other cultures within them. In lore, the tribal nature of the Minmatar is a sort of a block to this. Its easy to see how the greater Gallente society could absorb or assimilate the Intaki, The Jin Mei, and at one time the Civre and the Deteis. How the Caldari could take the Achura into its fold, how the Amarr have conquered or turned into client races the Khanid, the Ni-Kunni., the Ammatar. Lore wise, we can grow those societies and retcon new ones in there. The Minmatar makes this a bit tough since the tribes by nature of their origins are stuck all originating on Matar itself. It would be tough to imagine separate tribal societies emerging independently on separate planets and in separate solar systems.


Luckily the Amarr-atrocities have delivered a great excuse for this: If CCP wants to introduce more Minmatar-tribes, they can simply be descendants of rebels hunted by the Amarr, or another nomadic tribe suddenly emerging from hiding in some deep corner of New Eden.

The Minmatar are actually a unique case, since all their tribes/societies came from Matar and were just distributed around by the Amarr. Without the Amarr, the Minmatar wouldn't be the people we know: Without the Amarr, they would maybe have been something completely different. But the Amarr destroyed their old civilization and in turn created the Minmatar of today, their own nemesis. It's quite amusing to think the Minmatar without Amarr-influence would have maybe ended up like the other factions, with the societal flexibility to easily absorb other cultures into their own.
Kallie Altosoro
Ardene TAC
#18 - 2014-04-29 02:36:04 UTC
Quote:

Lore wise, SOE seems to be an open mix between any though, as it is more something like the red cross of eve, taking on anyone who wants to be with them (at least from reading the nicely written books that are out there).
I'd say you have this part right. The Sisters are willing to take in anyone who wants to help them. You might not get in to their inner circle no matter how hard you try, but you can be a part of them.

Quote:
The Syndicate - lore wise, i would guess on gallente, caldari crossover?

Intaki. So, yes, their roots are from Gallente. The Syndicate excels at black market trading.

Quote:
The Society - Jovian based

Only in that the Jove helped form the Society. The Jove aren't making regular holonet calls to Society members.

I would also offer that if there ARE Minmatar within the Blood Raiders, they would have Minmatar ancestory in them. I really, really doubt any sane member of the Minmatar today are signing up to join the Blood Raiders.

"Hey, this is my kind of rain.  No wonder the sky looked funny today."  -Dante

At warp, I can fly through a star.  But I have to finaggle my way around this asteroid.  /smirk
Gabriel Dube
Outer Planets Alliance
#19 - 2014-05-14 10:28:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Dube
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Well the Amarrian's are done with a mix of the Knights of Templar (military) and Islamic expansionism (government), which is all part of CCP's PR campaign to sell them as "bad guys" by pandering to classic nerdy anti-religious fervor and classical white-guy xenophobia. *golf clap*

This is the same PR firm that tries to sell the Republic as the "good guys" by painting them as eternal victims and a society falling squarely in the Hollywood slurp-fest of Native American worship as seen in films like "Avatar," again pandering to classic knee-jerk white-guy liberalism and completely ignoring any interesting not-so-coincidental similarities between the Minmatar tribes and, oh yeah, the real life Mongol horde that killed more people than everything else in the world.

Also on the PR table is trying to somehow link all the doctrines of extreme free-market capitalism with a vision of an oppressive, totalitarian state, which is something any sensible person would look at and say "lolwut?" but somehow they've managed to pull it off with the Caldari - again painting "bad guy" over knee-jerk white-guy anger at Wall Street and economic injustice.

And finally, the most boring of real-world models is obviously the Federation, designed from the get-go to lure in every naive wannabe political activist in the world with their democratic idealism and love of "freedom" ... though here I gotta say CCP did a pretty good job, because they've been mirroring the USA too closely, with "freedom" not applying to dissidents, people disappearing to the secret police and constantly trying to shove their ideals of "freedom" down everyone else's throats at the point of a gun. So this really was nicely done, actually.

Oh sorry, we're we talking about crossovers between in-game empire or crossovers between in-game empire and real life empires? Oppsie!


For similar, but still invalid arguments:

The Amarr empire are the true USA equivalent in eve! [Because devs always want to deliberately include a stereotypically caricatured RL country in their game. Always. And it's always your country. Yeah, that one. Can't possibly be another.]

The "either with us or against us" mentality? Check.
Imperialism? Check.
The will to establish a cultural or ideological hegemony? Check.
Religious fundamentalism? Check.
Weird sects and death cults? Check.
Large part of the population actively prepare for the apocalypse/judgement day? Check.
Built their nation on slavery? Check.

OR, we may all be mislead, and the MINMATAR, of all people, are the real americans:

Black president/head of state/glorious leader? Check.
Freedom-loving? Check.
Fight against tyranny and kill in the name of international justice? Check.
Violently opposes/abolishes slavery? Check.
Redneck/Ghetto style scrapmetal rigging? Check.
Outstanding inventors and engineers? Check.
Lots of Big F. Guns/overcompensating? Check.

OR, the Amarr-Minmatar conflict is just a huge analogy for the american civil war!!!
etc....

Most, if not all of the above criteria describing the empires of New Eden could pretty much apply to the USA just as well as they would to France or the UK or to most countries with a history of *gasp* imperialism.


More on-topic: some people seem to dislike the fact that the pirate faction ships are not evenly distributed regarding the skills required to fly them due to lore reasons.

Well, there is no reason why each and every major empire should spawn the same amount of pirate factions or influence them in a similarly significant way.

If anything, the differences between the empires should do anything but cause an even distribution of piracy.

The move towards the "non-empire factions" designation is frankly a very good way to satisfy lore purists and balance-OCDs alike while allowing the introduction, if need be, of more "cross-over" factions without necessarily having to make them into yet another huge NPC pirate mega-organization.