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Missile slots and RHML bonus for the Naga
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Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#1 - 2014-02-24 16:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
Before ABCs were introduced to Tranquility, I remember playing around in a torpedo Naga on the test server. Compared to the other ABCs, the torpedo Naga had terrible damage application. Cruise missile had slightly better application, but were unbalanced for other reasons. In short, the "missile Naga" was bad. It was unbalanced. That's why it got axed and never made it onto tranquility.

BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE RAPID HEAVY MISSILE LAUNCHERS BACK THEN
Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers provide a large weapon platform with much lower range than Cruise Missiles (a good thing) and much better damage application that Torpedoes (also a good thing).

Naga
High Slots: 8
Missile Hardpoints: 8
Caldari Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level): 10% reduction to RHML reload time
Role Bonuses: 95% reduction in RHML powergrid requirement, 50% reduction in RHML CPU requirement.

Why the reload speed RHML bonus? Because it provides a bonus to the sustained DPS of the ship, but does not give a bonus to the burst DPS. I'd like to hear opinions on giving the Naga 8 missile hardpoints and some sort of bonus to RHMLs. Discuss.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#2 - 2014-02-24 17:00:41 UTC
never happen, CPP make it so ship bonus that affect damage application will not affect Heavy missile.
but any ship bonus that increase damage/RoF will affect heavy.
paritybit
Stimulus
#3 - 2014-02-24 17:03:31 UTC
Attack Battle Cruisers are supposed to be for killing battleships. Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers are for killing cruisers. I don't think you're going to get any traction here.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#4 - 2014-02-24 17:04:58 UTC
unidenify wrote:
never happen, CPP make it so ship bonus that affect damage application will not affect Heavy missile.
but any ship bonus that increase damage/RoF will affect heavy.

I'm not sure what you're saying. RHMLs wouldn't need a damage application bonus as they already apply their damage better than large turrets. Perhaps you were saying that CCP would never change the Naga to a missile boat? Well it was a missile boat before it was a gun boat so... it could happen.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#5 - 2014-02-24 17:07:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Swiftstrike1
paritybit wrote:
Attack Battle Cruisers are supposed to be for killing battleships. Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers are for killing cruisers. I don't think you're going to get any traction here.

I don't know anyone who would willingly choose to attack a battleship fleet with an ABC fleet. Battleships would tear them to shreds if the ABCs actually stayed to fight.

A possible Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus for the RHML Naga is "10% reduced reload time per level" :)

EDIT: I like that idea actually so ima put it in my OP

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#6 - 2014-02-24 17:32:17 UTC
Rapid launchers are still inherently broken. Put me down for a cruise Naga, though...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#7 - 2014-02-24 17:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
unidenify wrote:
never happen, CPP make it so ship bonus that affect damage application will not affect Heavy missile.
but any ship bonus that increase damage/RoF will affect heavy.

I'm not sure what you're saying. RHMLs wouldn't need a damage application bonus as they already apply their damage better than large turrets. Perhaps you were saying that CCP would never change the Naga to a missile boat? Well it was a missile boat before it was a gun boat so... it could happen.


I maybe misread your first post as that you want to have BS that also have damage application bonus apply to heavy, which far as I am aware, CPP prefer to not allow it.

edited; I am moron for think Naga is Miniatar BS, not notice that it is Caldari ABC.


either way, I guess they either overlook it or decide that it may be overpowered.

you mention that they find issue with Cruise missile on Naga that make it unbalance. Maybe it is same reason?


b/w bonus to ROF is better than reload. because it will increase its burst dps, much like Scorpion Navy Issue's RoF bonus.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#8 - 2014-02-24 17:40:57 UTC
I bet you want a torp rokh too. Silly caldari.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#9 - 2014-02-24 17:44:08 UTC
I'd suspect that not giving any of the ABC's missile slots or bonuses to missiles is a very deliberate choice to prevent them turning into unholy murdermachines capable of butchering any frigate in two volleys with a rack of 8 bonused RLM's.

High speed, moderate tank, and then a full rack of damage, range, or application boosted missiles on a Naga would make it your one stop shop for reducing a frig fleet to scared hiding in safespots.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#10 - 2014-02-24 17:46:42 UTC
Batelle wrote:
I bet you want a torp rokh too. Silly caldari.

Be careful what you say on the internet. A madman might take you seriously.

[Rokh, TORP ROKH]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Scrambler II
Stasis Webifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Torpedo Launcher II, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Torpedo
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

Hammerhead II x5

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#11 - 2014-02-24 20:24:02 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
I'd suspect that not giving any of the ABC's missile slots or bonuses to missiles is a very deliberate choice to prevent them turning into unholy murdermachines capable of butchering any frigate in two volleys with a rack of 8 bonused RLM's.

High speed, moderate tank, and then a full rack of damage, range, or application boosted missiles on a Naga would make it your one stop shop for reducing a frig fleet to scared hiding in safespots.

And that would be bad how exactly?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#12 - 2014-02-24 20:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
I'd suspect that not giving any of the ABC's missile slots or bonuses to missiles is a very deliberate choice to prevent them turning into unholy murdermachines capable of butchering any frigate in two volleys with a rack of 8 bonused RLM's.

High speed, moderate tank, and then a full rack of damage, range, or application boosted missiles on a Naga would make it your one stop shop for reducing a frig fleet to scared hiding in safespots.

And that would be bad how exactly?



Because they were introduced as being a cheap high gank, low tank option for anti BS and anti Capital work.

This is reflected in the bonuses towards large turret weapons, but no bonuses towards other weapons sizes.
Naga has no general hybrid bonuses, it has Large Hybrid Turret bonuses.

As such, then permitting them to use specialized anti-frig or cruiser attack options like RLML's, or RHML's would be a drastic departure from the original stated intent of the ships, it would also be the only ship in the game with excellent fitting options for dealing with any ship class. Something CCP does not like at all.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#13 - 2014-02-24 20:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Anhenka wrote:
This is reflected in the bonuses towards large turret weapons, but no bonuses towards other weapons sizes.
Naga has no general hybrid bonuses, it has Large Hybrid Turret bonuses.

As such, then permitting them to use specialized anti-frig or cruiser attack options like RLML's, or RHML's would be a drastic departure from the original stated intent of the ships, it would also be the only ship in the game with excellent fitting options for dealing with any ship class. Something CCP does not like at all.

Like it or not, rapid heavy launchers are classified as a large weapon. While they have better damage application this is really no different than using Dual-250mm or 350mm hybrids instead of the 425mm version to achieve better tracking.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Damien White
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2014-02-24 20:53:34 UTC
But they are designed for combat against smaller ships, whereas ABC are designed to combat larger ships.

Btw the Torp Naga got canned because it ripped apart capitals and BS like there was no tomorrow, the first incarnation of the ship was OP beyond repair.

97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,

"DO A BARREL ROLL!"
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#15 - 2014-02-24 21:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Damien White wrote:
But they are designed for combat against smaller ships, whereas ABC are designed to combat larger ships.

Btw the Torp Naga got canned because it ripped apart capitals and BS like there was no tomorrow, the first incarnation of the ship was OP beyond repair.


how it is different than CNR with 8 Torp launcher?
from what I Understand, ABC is much more fragile than Combat BC, so it balance out

Naga always appear strange to me because fact is that There are no Missile boat version of Naga aka BC with large Missile launcher, but yet there are 2 Hybrid ABC.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#16 - 2014-02-24 21:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

Like it or not, rapid heavy launchers are classified as a large weapon. While they have better damage application this is really no different than using Dual-250mm or 350mm hybrids instead of the 425mm version to achieve better tracking.


A: Naga would be the only non BS+ hull in the game capable of fitting them. This is not a good situation.

B: Naga can of course fit smaller unbonused guns to gain better tracking. So can the Oracle, the Tornado, and the Talos.
They are garbage because they have no bonuses and are slapped on a BC hull, but you can fit them. Go ahead if you feel the need to have anti small ship weapons outweighs the need to do decent DPS. But don't expect the large weapon bonuses to work on them.

No non BS can fit RHML's, or Torps, mainly because they are such powerful weapon systems that permitting their use on damage bonused agile BC hulls would be insane.

The low tank and restrictions to guns means that ABC's are vulnerable to close range rapid orbit ships like interceptors, and this is a very important part of the balancing for them. You don't get to strap on 800+ DPS of anti frig/cruiser weaponry that does not require tracking and stroll of into the sunset on your winmobile.

Especially since none of the other ABC's could fit them.


unidenify wrote:


what make it different than CNR with 8 torp launcher?


One costs 50-60 mil, is insurable, disposable, fast, and agile.

The other is a 500 mil Isk lumbering whale that can't be insured for more than a fraction o cost.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#17 - 2014-02-24 21:08:17 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
]
Like it or not, rapid heavy launchers are classified as a large weapon. While they have better damage application this is really no different than using Dual-250mm or 350mm hybrids instead of the 425mm version to achieve better tracking.


A: Naga would be the only non BS+ hull in the game capable of fitting them. This is not a good situation.

B: Naga can of course fit smaller unbonused guns to gain better tracking. So can the Oracle, the Tornado, and the Talos.
They are garbage because they have no bonuses and are slapped on a BC hull, but you can fit them. Go ahead if you feel the need to have anti small ship weapons outweighs the need to do decent DPS. But don't expect the large weapon bonuses to work on them.

No non BS can fit RHML's, or Torps, mainly because they are such powerful weapon systems that permitting their use on damage bonused agile BC hulls would be insane.

The low tank and restrictions to guns means that ABC's are vulnerable to close range rapid orbit ships like interceptors, and this is a very important part of the balancing for them. You don't get to strap on 800+ DPS of anti frig/cruiser weaponry that does not require tracking and stroll of into the sunset on your winmobile.

Especially since none of the other ABC's could fit them.

A. Not true. Gnosis and Prophecy can fit 2-3 RHMLs.
B. Also not true. Dual 250mm and 350mm guns receive the same bonuses on the Naga and Talos.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Damien White
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-02-24 21:09:18 UTC
You serious?

Speed, Mobility, small signature, low price, Med slotts en mass. You could cycle Capitals to death while dealing 1000+ DPS over 40-50km Range while having free choise of damage.

97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,

"DO A BARREL ROLL!"
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#19 - 2014-02-24 21:15:07 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:

A. Not true. Gnosis and Prophecy can fit 2-3 RHMLs.
B. Also not true. Dual 250mm and 350mm guns receive the same bonuses on the Naga and Talos.


A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there, even with several fitting mods. Only one without fitting mods, and it's entirely unbonused for a grand total of 88 DPS on a Gnosis. Fitting one or two useless unbonused oversized weapons on one hull is a terrible argument for being able to fit 8 bonused launchers on a same sized hull.
This sort of argument only hurts your own case.

B: And they are both Large Hybrid Guns. Note the emphasis? They are not missiles, and while they are better at tracking than 425's, that does not make them specialized anti-cruiser/frig weapons like Rapid Missiles.
Damien White
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2014-02-24 21:19:39 UTC
Anhenka wrote:


A: At 1200+ grid per launcher, GL getting more than 2 on there,


Well, they work as well as Large AC on a Maller...


But they will look cool, like Large AC on a Maller ^^

97% of girls would die if Justin Bieber were about to jump off a cliff. Post this in your sig if you`re part of the 3% yelling,

"DO A BARREL ROLL!"
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