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Tengu Vs Machariel
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CanonMP180
#1 - 2011-11-26 23:12:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CanonMP180
I've got a main character and an alt, usually I use my main for PvP and have trained up an alt to run missions to fund the aforementioned PvP.

When creating my alt I decided I wanted a minny character, for no reason other than I had previously done missions in caldari ships on my main and wanted a change. Odd really that I would choose to go minny on nothing more than an impulse, and yet will spend hours in Evehq tweaking my fittings (I prefer it over EFT, hard to say why though).

So my alt has trained up for a Sleipner and found it underwhelming in comparison to my main's mission'ing tengu. Perhaps not entirely surprising as my main has all level 5 skills and my alt still has a few level 4 skills, but disappointing none the less. I'm thinking I'll train my alt up to fly a Machariel but I'm concerned that I'll be underwhelmed with that as well.

Here's my main's mission'ing Tengu fit:

Quote:
Subsystems:
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

Highs:
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Mids:
Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Lows:
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Rigs:
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Stats:
625 Omni tank,
660ms speed
696dps with scourge fury
88m explosion radius with fury, 45m with precision
81km optimal range
Cap stable with everything running
(I've got a few hardwiring implants, all the 3% hm related ones)


It's got range, speed, tank, decent dps, cap stability, and the ability to pop small fast ships with ease.

I've played with the Machariel in EveHQ but I can't seem to bring it quite up to par. Has anyone got a Mach fit that will match the above Tengu at clearing level 4's? Or should I cut my losses and just start training my alt for a Tengu? I've read many times that the Machariel is the holy grail of mission'ing ships, on paper it looks good, but not amazing (this may be my unfamiliarity with fitting it though).

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Goose99
#2 - 2011-11-26 23:24:30 UTC
CanonMP180 wrote:
I've got a main character and an alt, usually I use my main for PvP and have trained up an alt to run missions to fund the aforementioned PvP.

When creating my alt I decided I wanted a minny character, for no reason other than I had previously done missions in caldari ships on my main and wanted a change. Odd really that I would choose to go minny on nothing more than an impulse, and yet will spend hours in Evehq tweaking my fittings (I prefer it over EFT, hard to say why though).

So my alt has trained up for a Sleipner and found it underwhelming in comparison to my main's mission'ing tengu. Perhaps not entirely surprising as my main has all level 5 skills and my alt still has a few level 4 skills, but disappointing none the less. I'm thinking I'll train my alt up to fly a Machariel but I'm concerned that I'll be underwhelmed with that as well.

Here's my main's mission'ing Tengu fit:

Quote:
Subsystems:
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

Highs:
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Mids:
Pithum B-Type Medium Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Pith C-Type Photon Scattering Field
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Lows:
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Rigs:
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I

Stats:
625 Omni tank,
660ms speed
696dps with scourge fury
81km optimal range
Cap stable with everything running


It's got range, speed, tank, decent dps, cap stability, and the ability to pop small fast ships with ease.

I've played with the Machariel in EveHQ but I can't seem to bring it quite up to par. Has anyone got a Mach fit that will match the above Tengu at clearing level 4's? Or should I cut my losses and just start training my alt for a Tengu? I've read many times that the Machariel is the holy grail of mission'ing ships, on paper it looks good, but not amazing (this may be my unfamiliarity with fitting it though).


I have both, at max skills. Mach kill far faster aside from very few select missions involving blitzing at 100+ km range. 1.1k dps, high tracking, and sniping small rats at long/med range, compared to 700 dps delayed dmg, 500 dps on non-kinetic rats, and having to use hml on frigs due to no drones.

That tengu fit is sub optimal. Fit dissolusion sequenser for 4th bcs and long target range. Use cn ammo, fury has double explosion radius, and tengu has no drones.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-26 23:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: JitaJane
Lows- DCII 3 gyro, 3TE
Mids-AB, Invul, 2 specifics, and a SB
High- 800ACIIs
Utility slot varies really. Nos for extra cap and tractor for grabbing objective are two popular items. Depending on fitting skills you might have to use some faction (Fleet gyros are popular and relatively cheap). You will not be disappointed. Flown right it is the fastest in the game save maybe a nightmare but nightmare does not get to choose damage type. EMP works fine against sanshas. There's not a crystal on the market that works well on Angels.


Edit: you wanted rigs and stats too? Umm 1K+ DPS and yes it will land that at decent range. 500+ m/s. Around 600 with the SB but you won't use it consistently as the mach has 100% resistance to things it makes explode. Actually flying this is something you have to get used to: tanking with the high slots.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

CanonMP180
#4 - 2011-11-27 12:16:15 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
I have both, at max skills. Mach kill far faster aside from very few select missions involving blitzing at 100+ km range. 1.1k dps, high tracking, and sniping small rats at long/med range, compared to 700 dps delayed dmg, 500 dps on non-kinetic rats, and having to use hml on frigs due to no drones.

That tengu fit is sub optimal. Fit dissolusion sequenser for 4th bcs and long target range. Use cn ammo, fury has double explosion radius, and tengu has no drones.


Cheers for the comments regarding the Mach, and thanks for the tip on the tengu fit. If I swap out subsystems and then switch to a Gistum A-type booster it drops the tank by 100 (although that's still plenty high enough) and gives an extra 50 dps and boosts the optimal up to 113km which is nice. The non instant damage of missiles is annoying, but in almost all cases I know exactly how many volleys are required to pop something and find myself counting them as they fire without any conscious thought now Ugh


JitaJane wrote:
Lows- DCII 3 gyro, 3TE
Mids-AB, Invul, 2 specifics, and a SB
High- 800ACIIs
Utility slot varies really. Nos for extra cap and tractor for grabbing objective are two popular items. Depending on fitting skills you might have to use some faction (Fleet gyros are popular and relatively cheap). You will not be disappointed. Flown right it is the fastest in the game save maybe a nightmare but nightmare does not get to choose damage type. EMP works fine against sanshas. There's not a crystal on the market that works well on Angels.

Edit: you wanted rigs and stats too? Umm 1K+ DPS and yes it will land that at decent range. 500+ m/s. Around 600 with the SB but you won't use it consistently as the mach has 100% resistance to things it makes explode. Actually flying this is something you have to get used to: tanking with the high slots.


Thanks for the example load out, I've been tinkering with it and am looking forward to trying it out. Seems to me that the only rig options you have are to pop 1 T2 CCC rig in and 2 T1 CCC rigs if you want a cap stable tank (which you need to base off a Pithum A-type medium SB), not as much tank as I'd like, or am used to, but I'm well aware that I run plenty more tank than I need to.

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Shivus Tao
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-11-27 12:26:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivus Tao
CN ammo is great if you like throwing isk away. It's unfortunate, but I automatically disregard anyone who advises using CN heavies on a tengu.

Furies are the way to go for all things except elite frigates if your missile support skills are anywhere near decent. With maxed missile support skills you'll actually lose time switching to normal heavies to kill frigates when furies kill them in a few volleys anyway.

The machariel is far faster at killing, and comes with a more sustainable tank if it gets webbed down, but a properly fit mach comes at about twice the pricetag as a tengu.

Also as to your tengu fit, it's overtanked for about every mission except for one specific one that has about a dozen dramiels all trying to web you. But in that one you're better off using warp to 100km trickery or just bringing a machariel instead. Personally I find 1 pithi c-type small with 3 rat specific hardeners is far more than enough for almost every mission, speed is your main tank.
CanonMP180
#6 - 2011-11-27 13:03:03 UTC
Shivus Tao wrote:
CN ammo is great if you like throwing isk away. It's unfortunate, but I automatically disregard anyone who advises using CN heavies on a tengu.

Furies are the way to go for all things except elite frigates if your missile support skills are anywhere near decent. With maxed missile support skills you'll actually lose time switching to normal heavies to kill frigates when furies kill them in a few volleys anyway.

The machariel is far faster at killing, and comes with a more sustainable tank if it gets webbed down, but a properly fit mach comes at about twice the pricetag as a tengu.

Also as to your tengu fit, it's overtanked for about every mission except for one specific one that has about a dozen dramiels all trying to web you. But in that one you're better off using warp to 100km trickery or just bringing a machariel instead. Personally I find 1 pithi c-type small with 3 rat specific hardeners is far more than enough for almost every mission, speed is your main tank.


Aye I use the orbit can / gate / handy wreck at 3k method to speed tank, and with three rigor rigs + implants there's no advantage in using CN missiles except when killing elite frigs. Currently I either don't bother to swtich, or if there's a lot of frigs I leave them till last and switch to precision or normal scourge (CN costs roughly 2x precision, and while it does a little more damage, it's very rare that the number of volleys to kill something changes) and kill the remaining frigs that way. The rule of thumb I use is: If there's more than 4 elite frigs to kill it may be worth switching ammo, the reloading time vs effectiveness is probably between 4 and 5 elite frigs in my experience.

As to the bolded part of your quoted text above, do you mean on a tengu or Mach?


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Cillet Baang Scott
Allowance Pester Dread
#7 - 2011-11-27 14:48:29 UTC
This is my take on your situation.

1st get your fits sorted
[Tengu, New Setup 8]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Gist A-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Gist A-Type Photon Scattering Field
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Medium Warhead Flare Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

Near cap stable.

[Machariel, New Setup 3]
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Pith A-Type Heat Dissipation Field
Pith A-Type Ballistic Deflection Field
Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer

800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, Phased Plasma L
Heavy Nosferatu II

Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Semiconductor Memory Cell II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hobgoblin II x5

Near cap stable

Now compare the numbers.
mach dps: 1041 with hobs (+100m3 spare)
tengu dps: 715dps no drones (0m3 spare)

mach tank: 644dps
tengu tank: 647dps

mach speed: 624m/s
tengu speed: 661m/s

Since the mach has nearlythe same stats, but at the same time having a huge chunk more dps + added extra drone bay, you'd have to choose mach... everytime.
venimous
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-11-27 15:17:40 UTC
4 Republic fleet gyros
3 Republic fleet tracking enhancers
1 Gist x type x-large shield booster
Omni-directional tracking link 1, swap for a boost amp or whatever really
2 CN invuls
1 Gist x-type 100mn MWD
7 800mm repeating artiallary II
drone link augmentor I
2 CCC t1
1 CCC t2

5 hammerhead IIs

Will implants and good skills the stats are

601dps burst tank - lasts a good 5 minutes if you dont use the mwd
1200dps with drones + guns
1505m/s with mwd on.

Can easily outrun frigs
Aligns as fast as a bc
Is totally utter pwnage :P

And WAY better than the Tengu
Most admit it is quite a gank me fit but lesser mods would still do the trick and a tank is bearly needed when u can fly off at 1500m/s when the need arrises.
Cypher Decypher
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2011-11-27 16:46:41 UTC
By all means overtank until you're comfortable with the ship's ability to pwn all & sundry, but for the love of God please don't waste isk on Tech2 CCC rigs for the Mach. It doesn't need cap stability, its a dps & speed tank. Fit speed/agility rigs mostly.

The only faction/deadspace stuff you need is the X-Type MWD and the damage mods. The rest can be Tech2. I use a Meta 4 XL booster, it seriously reduces any gank attractability..
Captain Nares
O3 Corporation
#10 - 2011-11-27 17:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Nares
L4's: if you have all lvl5 Tengu, then you don't need a Mach. And vise versa.

Unless you are going to use it in PeeVeePee.

PS don't be misled by statements like "Mach is waaay better than Tengu". Not true Blink

PSS add 4th BCU to your Tengu.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2011-11-27 17:59:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Hungry Eyes
both ships are stupidly OP and need to be hit with the nerfbat so hard that their hulls bleed. essentially, there's no reason to fly anything else in the game.

that being said, mach > tengu for L4's.
Goose99
#12 - 2011-11-27 18:23:16 UTC
Hungry Eyes wrote:
both ships are stupidly OP and need to be hit with the nerfbat so hard that their hulls bleed. essentially, there's no reason to fly anything else in the game.

that being said, mach > tengu for L4's.


Neither need to be nerfed, balance = pvp, not pve.

-Mach is so rare in pvp due to their price tag, it's a nonfactor that won't make or break Minmatar. The cane is what made Winmatar what it is, not the Mach.
-Tengu is a overpriced glorified drake in pvp, aside from the 100mn ab gemmick, which can also be fit on other t3s. It's not op in pvp, only pve, balance is based on pvp.
Wuxi Wuxilla
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-11-27 18:39:40 UTC
Why is every Tengu here fit with HML and no HAMs?
I don't see how the range bonus is worth more than 300 dps.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#14 - 2011-11-27 18:42:27 UTC
CanonMP180 wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
I have both, at max skills. Mach kill far faster aside from very few select missions involving blitzing at 100+ km range. 1.1k dps, high tracking, and sniping small rats at long/med range, compared to 700 dps delayed dmg, 500 dps on non-kinetic rats, and having to use hml on frigs due to no drones.

That tengu fit is sub optimal. Fit dissolusion sequenser for 4th bcs and long target range. Use cn ammo, fury has double explosion radius, and tengu has no drones.


Cheers for the comments regarding the Mach, and thanks for the tip on the tengu fit. If I swap out subsystems and then switch to a Gistum A-type booster it drops the tank by 100 (although that's still plenty high enough) and gives an extra 50 dps and boosts the optimal up to 113km which is nice. The non instant damage of missiles is annoying, but in almost all cases I know exactly how many volleys are required to pop something and find myself counting them as they fire without any conscious thought now Ugh


JitaJane wrote:
Lows- DCII 3 gyro, 3TE
Mids-AB, Invul, 2 specifics, and a SB
High- 800ACIIs
Utility slot varies really. Nos for extra cap and tractor for grabbing objective are two popular items. Depending on fitting skills you might have to use some faction (Fleet gyros are popular and relatively cheap). You will not be disappointed. Flown right it is the fastest in the game save maybe a nightmare but nightmare does not get to choose damage type. EMP works fine against sanshas. There's not a crystal on the market that works well on Angels.

Edit: you wanted rigs and stats too? Umm 1K+ DPS and yes it will land that at decent range. 500+ m/s. Around 600 with the SB but you won't use it consistently as the mach has 100% resistance to things it makes explode. Actually flying this is something you have to get used to: tanking with the high slots.


Thanks for the example load out, I've been tinkering with it and am looking forward to trying it out. Seems to me that the only rig options you have are to pop 1 T2 CCC rig in and 2 T1 CCC rigs if you want a cap stable tank (which you need to base off a Pithum A-type medium SB), not as much tank as I'd like, or am used to, but I'm well aware that I run plenty more tank than I need to.

Forget cap-stable. You are quite correct that a pithA medium is insufficient. Cap stable is a good philosophy for some ships the Mach is not one of them. My current fit has an XL and reads 4 minutes of cap, which is more than plenty. The concept I was trying to convey of tanking with the high slots. When you enter the pocket and get full agggro you are going to want some instant high output rep. But you are going to be dropping targets every cycle and moving to better ranges for those minutes so the incoming DPS decreases. So you turn off the SB and finish killing the room giving it a cycle or two every now and again. I guess I am saying learn to manage one more button.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2011-11-27 18:49:08 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Hungry Eyes wrote:
both ships are stupidly OP and need to be hit with the nerfbat so hard that their hulls bleed. essentially, there's no reason to fly anything else in the game.

that being said, mach > tengu for L4's.


Neither need to be nerfed, balance = pvp, not pve.

-Mach is so rare in pvp due to their price tag, it's a nonfactor that won't make or break Minmatar. The cane is what made Winmatar what it is, not the Mach.
-Tengu is a overpriced glorified drake in pvp, aside from the 100mn ab gemmick, which can also be fit on other t3s. It's not op in pvp, only pve, balance is based on pvp.


Precisely. Mach don't leave high. Mack stays parked during Decs. The boat I am talking about is a precision instrument suited to one purpose which is killing 4s swiftly. Like Orca boosts for mining. I personally do not have the skill as a pilot to bring one into combat. And am more than willing to admit it.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Kurogauna
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2011-11-28 08:18:27 UTC
I've both.

Mach :
- instant 1000 dps
- EMP, Fusion, Explo damage
- 600ms perma AB
- drones
- ideal range : 10km, up to 60-70km

Tengu :
- delayed 700 - 900 dps (HAM or HM)
- Kin only
- 700-800 ms perma AB
- no drones
- no range management (40km-60km HAM and over 150km with HM)

TBH I dont do L4 ATM but i used both in gallente space, using tengu when i needed KIN/long range damage... But for killing angels, machariel is a bounty whore.
Kurogauna
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2011-11-28 08:21:57 UTC
Quote:
Mach is so rare in pvp due to their price tag, it's a nonfactor that won't make or break Minmatar.


Oh lol ! Just flied from a GANG (Ronin) OF MACHARIELS (with nightmares and some support of course) last night. Well, it's a hard hitting combo... Expensive ships in pvp aren't rare anymore. Peps are rich Cool
Mnengli Noiliffe
Doomheim
#18 - 2011-11-28 08:27:13 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Why is every Tengu here fit with HML and no HAMs?
I don't see how the range bonus is worth more than 300 dps.

maybe if it was 300. in reality it's more like 100-150 additional eft dps. about 950 vs 800 with HM (can't be exact - I don't have eft at hand)

downsides:

1. ammo consumption is much faster so you have to reload more frequently -> even less dps boost
2. about 39 km range on rages with 2 range t2 rigs (velocity and flight time ones). this means that you do no dps at all while you are getting in range. this wasted time invalidates your HAM's 150 dps bonus.

there are javelins but they are pretty horrible. range is about 65 km, dps is about 650 and you lose speed so you get into rage range even slower, plus you'll need 10 sec to reload if you intend to use the range you got which is another waste of time. if you don't intend to get in range then why not just use HM and have 110 km range with 800 dps instead of 650 at 65.

so all in all in lvl4 missions HAMs underperform relative to HMs.

however, there are uses for them like farming complexes where stuff respawns right under your nose so you can apply full rage dps instantly.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#19 - 2011-11-28 11:11:45 UTC
Wuxi Wuxilla wrote:
Why is every Tengu here fit with HML and no HAMs?
I don't see how the range bonus is worth more than 300 dps.


Because the Tengu has no drone bay and it absolutely depends on speed for its tank. Killing 2-4 elite webbing frigates with HMLs is nervous; trying to do it with HAMs could lose you your Tengu.

Plus the other reasons given above (range, reloads, range and range). Also HMLs are easier to fit.

BTW you don't need fancy deadspace shield boosters for a Tengu. A CN Medium Shield Booster + 2 hardeners + RF AB works great.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Plave Okice
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-12-03 09:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Plave Okice
Back when I missioned with a Mach I only had one cap related module, cap booster.

Occasionally I needed to use it, using about a frigs bounty worth of charges, I had a cheap Dread Guristas XL shield booster as well.

It's all about damage, range and speed

EDIT - also T2 hardeners do the job just fine

EDIT - also, just because you can fit an MWD doesn't mean it's a good idea, it's a dumb idea. Deadspace ABs and cheap are a much better option, run it all day long.
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