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Loot Spew 4 Months Later

First post
Author
Crysantos Callahan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2014-02-22 09:41:47 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We are removing it, hopefully for Summer.


******* amazing! Best news I've heard in a while.

Can we now get spawns back in relic sites or at least some kind of entertainment except exciting debris and large collidable objects who are fighting dirty against us by stepping in our way to the next can?

Quinn Corvez
Perkone
Caldari State
#262 - 2014-02-22 09:52:58 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
We are removing it, hopefully for Summer.

You should improve the hacking mini game while you are at it.

Instead of is being a game of luke in trying to find the goal, you should show the goal at the start and make it a game about path finding.
Arista Shahni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#263 - 2014-02-22 09:55:54 UTC
Thanks for no splatter. When the ystem was shown pre-release I wasn't lying in th stream of screaming posts about the being diabled thing for ease of not wanting to deal with an "annoyance".

Yes, some people DON'T have the fine motor coordination for that mechanic, I play EVE cause it DOESN'T require the kind of fine motor coordination other games do, and I know I'm not the ony player with these kinds of issues. I stopped explo 100% after it because it was literally impossible for me.

A reason to put explo skills back into the queue.

"I say that even as the holy and the righteous cannot rise beyond the highest which is in each one of you - so the wicked and the weak cannot fall lower than the lowest which is in you also.  And as a single leaf turns not yellow but with the silent knowledge of the whole tree, so the wrong-doer cannot do wrong without the hidden will of you all."

Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#264 - 2014-02-22 13:20:49 UTC
Something everyone seems to be missing:

If you weren't a mouth breathing retread, loot spew was perhaps annoying, but irrelevant. Good players who knew what they were doing got 100% of the "good stuff" every time.

Now, with loot spew going away, CCP is surely to nerf overall loot.

So, good players will make much less from exploration, so that bads and mouth breathers can make the same as us.

Wake up kids, this is a NERF to exploration income, pure and simple.

Yay, no more spew, but boo, now each site will be worth 10,000 isk. Yeah, great.

If all they do is remove spew and reduce loot, this is a rather nasty nerf to exploration income to mollify noobs and bads and whiners tbh.

Good players happy about this are cutting off their nose to spite their face.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#265 - 2014-02-22 13:46:47 UTC
Alistair Cononach wrote:
Something everyone seems to be missing:

If you weren't a mouth breathing retread, loot spew was perhaps annoying, but irrelevant. Good players who knew what they were doing got 100% of the "good stuff" every time.

Now, with loot spew going away, CCP is surely to nerf overall loot.

So, good players will make much less from exploration, so that bads and mouth breathers can make the same as us.

Wake up kids, this is a NERF to exploration income, pure and simple.

Yay, no more spew, but boo, now each site will be worth 10,000 isk. Yeah, great.

If all they do is remove spew and reduce loot, this is a rather nasty nerf to exploration income to mollify noobs and bads and whiners tbh.

Good players happy about this are cutting off their nose to spite their face.


A face that bad deserves some kitchen sink surgery. But as I posted earlier in the thread, I can't be wholly excited without knowing where all this is going. And that's bothering me.
Rashnu Gorbani
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2014-02-22 13:47:05 UTC
I would've been more happy if the minigame was removed. The loot, well we knew which cans to pick up anyway.
Will T2 rig prices increase? Or just exploration becomes like mining, only newbies do it because it's worth so much less? It is a viable solo source of income now.
Salvos Rhoska
#267 - 2014-02-22 14:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Since so many people have a (to me completely incomprehensible) serious and un-overcomeable problem with Loot Spew, I propose that there is an option to play the loot spew minigame for better profit, whereas those who are for some reason incapable of playing it, have a reduced profit option.

Such as this:

Suggestion:
Add two buttons to the hack interface that become available after a succesful hack:

-Button 1: Access Node:
---You can directly loot from the nodes cargo hold a smaller percentage of randomly determined cans from the site (from the selection that otherwise would have spewed). You have no control over what cans are randomly selected.

Button 2: Eject Node:

---Cans spew as now, and player can play the spew minigame for a better controlled chance at desired cans from the normal spew mechanic.

In this way the added risk/efforf of playing the spew minigame is retained, and those players who refuse to play it, or are otherwise somehow incapable of playing it, can still do the sites, albeit with reduced effort and hence reduced direct control of the rewards.

This would be consistent with risk/reward systems in EVE overall, and "fair" to both sides of the argument.
To the anti-spew folk, in that since they wont play the spew game, they get potentially reduced reward, as commensurate with their reduced effort and associated risk.
And to the pro-spew folk, since they invest the time, effort and risk of playing the additional stage of the minigame."
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#268 - 2014-02-22 14:38:52 UTC
I cannot understand how most people are so happy with the removal of gameplay in favour of a step towards mindless module cycling. The can cloud minigame requires significant attention and improves the likelihood of pvp at relic and data sites. The only obnoxious thing is the inclusion of booby prizes such as carbon, which can be removed without altering the loot mechanic at all.

Please reconsider, this mechanic was better developed than the hacking minigame itself.
Rena'Thras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2014-02-22 18:13:02 UTC
Why is it that people that want "engaging gameplay" always go to one of two standbys - either NPC spawns that you have to fight (because every exploration ship is really a COMBAT SHIP, amIrite?), or ganking/attempted ganking/PvP?

How lacking in imagination you all are.

Likewise, trying to click boxes with a mouse was either ridiculously easy (if you were stationary and using a mouse) or damn near impossible (if you were orbiting and using a touch pad) - I've done it both ways.

And even the spew boxes itself isn't something you can "skill" through. You have to scan it first, then you have to load up a website to tell you the name of the different cargo boxes that will correspond to the loot you actually want, otherwise you'll go on a mad clicking spree and end up with tons of worthless Carbon which seems to have no useful application (and, at the very least, doesn't generate any ISK commensurate with the effort you spent scanning it down and getting it - remember, you've already had to train up skills and win a hacking game after also scanning down the site.)

The hacking game was fun, but it would be cooler if there was more going on. I accept that it's a first iteration, though. Something more than randomness. Hell, you could even make it where the PvP was hacking! Why not make it where, when someone uses their module on the site, it opens the minigame and puts up a shield so their ship can't be shot at...but anyone ELSE can also hack the site. Then it becomes a race to the finish to see who can get to the core first and defeat it. Oh, and the hackers can attack each other's viruses.

See, that's actually making PvP out of the exploration minigame instead of, you know, giving all the cards to the PvP ship to come and shoot the explorer while he/she is hacking.

.

Honestly, most of these "it's too easy/mindless!" posts scream "I'm a PvPer and want to have an easier time ganking explorers! CCP, if you get rid of loot spew, they can hack, loot, and get away before I can kill them with no effort on my part!!!"

There are ways to make things interesting and challenging - even to encourage varied PvP - without just making it where combat ships have more chances to shoot at explorer ships. Hell, trade moguls have their very own version of PvP which requires not a single bullet to be fired.

Unless all exploration Frigates/Covops Frigates are being converted into combat frigates that just ALSO carry probe launchers and data/relic analyzers, then the idea of making exploration ships sitting ducks for unwanted PvP gank fests is stupid. Make it a fight worth having - either ship to ship or virus to virus - and you might be onto something. Heck, give the Recon Cruisers a piece of the pie with hacking bonuses and weapon bonuses. Might be fun to hop into a Recon and get in on the action.

The loot spew itself is, at best, annoying, and at worst, VERY annoying. It doesn't add compelling gameplay.

The reason for it was to encourage team exploration, but a better way to do that would be to allow team hacking, imo. Let two viruses attack the system at the same time and give increased loot if they take down the core (which can have its strength boosted for each additional virus in play).

There are other things in Eve than (ship to ship) combat, you know. /sigh
Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#270 - 2014-02-22 18:36:21 UTC
Thank you for removing the loot spew. As a brain dead mouth breathing neck beard, I and many many many others expressed our concern about this mechanic when it was first introduced on the test server:

As a game mechanic it simply did not fit in with any other mechanic that currently exists in Eve.
It penalizes players with motor issues as described above.
It made laptop play very difficult especially when on the road with questionable internet connections.
It was difficult to handle when the object models got in the way of travel. (How the SoE BS is suppose to achieve this is very questionable)
Difficulty selecting mini cans due to the server "tick" behavior resulting in missed cans and wasted time.

Before Rubicon the act of exploration was the killing of rats and the watching of your hacking mods cycle until the loot became available.

Rubicon introduced two mechanics: The mini game and the spew. The mini game was a vast improvement over just sitting there recycling the hacking module (as now seen in Ghost sites). What made this even better was the (remote) possibility that this mechanic could be used in other areas of the game, like POS removal after a successful hack (accessing the shields and if you have the required skills POS dismantling and theft), and the the possibility of retaining (and building) the buff scripts collected during the game.

The spew was seen by most as a punishment for a successful hack. It was suggested many times to use the loot spew but as a second chance to get something should the hack fail. Even then there could be a % chance to get the spew as opposed to the whole thing blowing up.

So people made the most of a bad mechanic. A post was made to teach players the best mini cans to grab given what a cargo scan revealed allowing players the best chance of catching the "good stuff". The understanding of what to grab and what to ignore was the true dumbing down of the mechanic. Bring friends to participate turned out to be very boring for the friends.

It is true that the loot tables were adjusted to ensure that income with spew for the solo player matched pre-Rubicon levels however this fell flat due to an "unexpected" turn of events; The skill requirements to be an average explorer was dramatically reduced. To compensate the high end sites were not adjusted to become more difficult to find. The end result was far more people exploring (good) but a significant drop in value of loot due to market saturation (bad).

Exploration used to be very difficult that required significant time to obtain a chance of getting something good. The skill and time investment was significant and drew only a small population to the profession. This was not a bad situation but if you really wanted to explore you were going to have to invest the time for the skills and develop the skill to discover the good stuff.

I appreciate CCPs desire to get more people involved in scanning and exploration. Unfortunately the balance of the high skill level high time commitment has tipped too far in favor of low barrier of entry. A review of this balance is in order. If the removal of the spew mechanic and the remapping of the loot tables is the beginning of this then I for one welcome it.

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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#271 - 2014-02-22 20:39:28 UTC
Thank you Tzar Sinak. This is exactly what i feel about post odyssey exploration.

Quote:
The mini game was a vast improvement over just sitting there recycling the hacking module (as now seen in Ghost sites).


i didn't know there's no hacking game in ghost sites.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

HeXxploiT
Doomheim
#272 - 2014-02-22 22:54:28 UTC
This is one of those things that was just a matter of time. The new hacking game sucks but I can live with it. Since when does something disappear in space anyway? The mechanic was introduced to encouraged group activity. Overall exploratory activity has increased but 95% of it are solo cloaky frigates.
Exploration was my favorite part of the game prior to these changes and I have all but stopped since this patch as the majority of sites are these preposterous loot/poof sites.

I will do cartwheels when I can once again explore as I once did with my mates.

Elmore Jones
Orange Street
#273 - 2014-02-23 00:19:37 UTC
Thanks for listening and removing the spew.

+++ Reality Error 404 - Reboot Cosmos +++

DSpite Culhach
#274 - 2014-02-23 00:20:35 UTC
If you want to keep explorers in space longer to allow better chances at ganking, then a more complex mini game with a trade off for perfect completion being better loot is the answer. If the system had nodes that if left active cause can explosions, then a total failure would result in multiple can explosions and higher damage levels.

if the idea is to make it a better experience for multiple players, then it should have been setup to allow active participation in the hack, NOT in playing a clicking mini game. Two players can attack one ship, surely two players can attack a system and the combined result (2 succeses, 2 failures, or 1/1 of each) be possible.

If players did not try to find loopholes and minmaxing workarounds to every gaddam thing CCP does, then CCP would not bother creating weird arsed mechanics as a pre-emptive measure to try and put a stop to it.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.

probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#275 - 2014-02-23 17:25:59 UTC
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:

Will T2 rig prices increase? Or just exploration becomes like mining, only newbies do it because it's worth so much less? It is a viable solo source of income now.


This is the main problem. By making T2 salvage more common, Odyssey made T2 rigs an actually viable choice. The price of T2 med trims fell from 70mil each to 16mil each. The volume traded absolutely exploded across the entire T2 rig market. The number of T2 med trims that Eve players fit each day now is greater than the number of ALL T2 rigs combined together fit per day pre-Odyssey.

If you revert loot tables now, you kill the entire industry. And you don't just go back to 70mil T2 med trims. You go even higher, probably above 100mil per T2 med trim, due to the introduction of Capital Rigs, their insane raw material cost, and their relative inflexibility of demand.
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#276 - 2014-02-23 20:33:22 UTC
probag Bear wrote:
Rashnu Gorbani wrote:

Will T2 rig prices increase? Or just exploration becomes like mining, only newbies do it because it's worth so much less? It is a viable solo source of income now.


This is the main problem. By making T2 salvage more common, Odyssey made T2 rigs an actually viable choice. The price of T2 med trims fell from 70mil each to 16mil each. The volume traded absolutely exploded across the entire T2 rig market. The number of T2 med trims that Eve players fit each day now is greater than the number of ALL T2 rigs combined together fit per day pre-Odyssey.

If you revert loot tables now, you kill the entire industry. And you don't just go back to 70mil T2 med trims. You go even higher, probably above 100mil per T2 med trim, due to the introduction of Capital Rigs, their insane raw material cost, and their relative inflexibility of demand.

The T2 rig price has more to do with the fact that after Odyssey the number of active explorers by a factor of 6. Im not sure if this is still true though.

The ease of scanning is what drove the T2 rig market down, not so much the loot tables.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Tzar Sinak
Mythic Heights
#277 - 2014-02-24 03:20:10 UTC
I would respectfully suggest that we learn more about what the new loot tables become before panicking.

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Check out the Eve-Prosper show for your market updates!

Salvos Rhoska
#278 - 2014-02-24 07:40:03 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I would respectfully suggest that we learn more about what the new loot tables become before panicking.

Its not likely the loot tables are going to be more profitable.
Its also likely that the quality of loot will drop, alongside the decreased effort of doing the sites.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#279 - 2014-02-24 08:17:01 UTC
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I would respectfully suggest that we learn more about what the new loot tables become before panicking.


But the panicking masses are hilarious!

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CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#280 - 2014-02-24 10:24:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Tzar Sinak wrote:
I would respectfully suggest that we learn more about what the new loot tables become before panicking.

Its not likely the loot tables are going to be more profitable.
Its also likely that the quality of loot will drop, alongside the decreased effort of doing the sites.


The quality of the loot will not drop, this is not a nerf to exploration :) I will post more details when I can.

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