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Lasers Need Love
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Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#21 - 2014-02-23 20:10:14 UTC
I agree that lasers are pigeon holed. however changing the damage type wont change anything. the thing with lasers is that they have the highest optimal/falloff ratio out of all the guns. adding launchers is a terrible idea, because it creates the idea that people shouldnt use lasers, and that lasers are useless. lasers are fine as is because of their amazing kiting ability. they have huge optimal range, and can switch damage types instantly. i think that tracking needs to be buffed. other then that, lasers are fine.

Also, look at hybrids. they are pigeon holed to thermal/kinetic. they are in the same boat as laser boats. the only difference is is that most ships have less kinetic resists then EM resists (for armor atleast) if you look at PVP, most ships have a huge EM/Therm resist spread, because lasers are sooo deadly at range. PVE lasers arent great, but they are feared in PVP. an Apoc can hit stuff at about 250-350km out with decent damage. whats the point of having a blaster boat or even a rail boat if you get picked off before you can even get within range. pulse lasers are also the same. lasers are meant for kiting.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#22 - 2014-02-23 20:10:14 UTC
If you want to retune the damage ratios why switch to Kinetic? I really dont see the point.

Go with 3 sets of crystals that split the damage 25%/75% in either direction, Short, Medium, Long range, with medium having the significant cap break.
Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#23 - 2014-02-23 20:10:59 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
If you want to retune the damage ratios why switch to Kinetic? I really dont see the point.

Go with 3 sets of crystals that split the damage 25%/75% in either direction, Short, Medium, Long range, with medium having the significant cap break.


the only grievance i have is its tracking. other then that, lasers are awesome, arguably the best guns in the game.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#24 - 2014-02-23 20:14:51 UTC
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
I agree that lasers are pigeon holed. however changing the damage type wont change anything. the thing with lasers is that they have the highest optimal/falloff ratio out of all the guns. adding launchers is a terrible idea, because it creates the idea that people shouldnt use lasers, and that lasers are useless. lasers are fine as is because of their amazing kiting ability. they have huge optimal range, and can switch damage types instantly. i think that tracking needs to be buffed. other then that, lasers are fine.

Also, look at hybrids. they are pigeon holed to thermal/kinetic. they are in the same boat as laser boats. the only difference is is that most ships have less kinetic resists then EM resists (for armor atleast) if you look at PVP, most ships have a huge EM/Therm resist spread, because lasers are sooo deadly at range. PVE lasers arent great, but they are feared in PVP. an Apoc can hit stuff at about 250-350km out with decent damage. whats the point of having a blaster boat or even a rail boat if you get picked off before you can even get within range. pulse lasers are also the same. lasers are meant for kiting.



Lasers do have good damage at range, but I am pretty sure not many fights happen at ranges better than 250km. Also, there is no such thing as out of range for rails... If you could target it, I am pretty sure a 425 rail could smack you in the next solar system. Its going to be chipping paint, but you will indeed get scratched. If its mounted on a Rohk you might still be in the optimal.
Lilliana Stelles
#25 - 2014-02-23 20:17:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilliana Stelles
Damien White wrote:
Well... how do you create kinetic damage with something that is basicaly an oversized flashlight? Throw it at someone?


Kinetic/explosive lasers are feasible even in the real world.

https://what-if.xkcd.com/13/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_ablation

"Propulsion
Finally, laser ablation can be used to transfer momentum to a surface, since the ablated material applies a pulse of high pressure to the surface underneath it as it expands. The effect is similar to hitting the surface with a hammer. This process is used in industry to work-harden metal surfaces, and is one damage mechanism for a laser weapon. It is also the basis of pulsed laser propulsion for spacecraft."

At high enough energy it can create an explosion of plasma on the surface of the target.

Not a forum alt. 
Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#26 - 2014-02-23 20:18:03 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
I agree that lasers are pigeon holed. however changing the damage type wont change anything. the thing with lasers is that they have the highest optimal/falloff ratio out of all the guns. adding launchers is a terrible idea, because it creates the idea that people shouldnt use lasers, and that lasers are useless. lasers are fine as is because of their amazing kiting ability. they have huge optimal range, and can switch damage types instantly. i think that tracking needs to be buffed. other then that, lasers are fine.

Also, look at hybrids. they are pigeon holed to thermal/kinetic. they are in the same boat as laser boats. the only difference is is that most ships have less kinetic resists then EM resists (for armor atleast) if you look at PVP, most ships have a huge EM/Therm resist spread, because lasers are sooo deadly at range. PVE lasers arent great, but they are feared in PVP. an Apoc can hit stuff at about 250-350km out with decent damage. whats the point of having a blaster boat or even a rail boat if you get picked off before you can even get within range. pulse lasers are also the same. lasers are meant for kiting.



Lasers do have good damage at range, but I am pretty sure not many fights happen at ranges better than 250km. Also, there is no such thing as out of range for rails... If you could target it, I am pretty sure a 425 rail could smack you in the next solar system. Its going to be chipping paint, but you will indeed get scratched. If its mounted on a Rohk you might still be in the optimal.


its true, but lasers do more damage at that kind of range then rails.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#27 - 2014-02-23 20:28:31 UTC
Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)

Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-02-23 20:28:32 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
If you want to retune the damage ratios why switch to Kinetic? I really dont see the point.

Go with 3 sets of crystals that split the damage 25%/75% in either direction, Short, Medium, Long range, with medium having the significant cap break.

Howabout 4 groups of 2, letting you choose both between which damage type is higher as well as an alternate capacitor/damage/tracking setup:

-50% range:
1.) 9 EM 3 Therm
2.) 6 EM 5 Therm but less capacitor and a bit better tracking

-25% range:
1.) 7 EM 3 Therm
2.) 4 EM 5 Therm less capacitor and more tracking

+0% range:
1.) 5 EM 3 Therm
2.) 2 EM 5 Therm less capacitor/more tracking

+40% range:
1.) 3 Em 3 Therm
+60% range:
2.) 1 EM 4 Therm

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#29 - 2014-02-23 20:32:04 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)

Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment.


lasers have longer range then railguns.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#30 - 2014-02-23 20:34:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)

Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment.


lasers have longer range then railguns.


lolno.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/23-Feb-1422-38-48_zpsa4664d98.png
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#31 - 2014-02-23 20:36:39 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
If you want to retune the damage ratios why switch to Kinetic? I really dont see the point.

Go with 3 sets of crystals that split the damage 25%/75% in either direction, Short, Medium, Long range, with medium having the significant cap break.

Howabout 4 groups of 2, letting you choose both between which damage type is higher as well as an alternate capacitor/damage/tracking setup:

-50% range:
1.) 9 EM 3 Therm
2.) 6 EM 5 Therm but less capacitor and a bit better tracking

-25% range:
1.) 7 EM 3 Therm
2.) 4 EM 5 Therm less capacitor and more tracking

+0% range:
1.) 5 EM 3 Therm
2.) 2 EM 5 Therm less capacitor/more tracking

+40% range:
1.) 3 Em 3 Therm
+60% range:
2.) 1 EM 4 Therm


From the standpoint of a standard crystal, increases of tracking, range and/or damage should come at the cost of cap. In EVE, damage and range are generally a trade. You gould go with a ton of crystal types based on those criteria.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#32 - 2014-02-23 20:40:33 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)

Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment.


lasers have longer range then railguns.


lolno.



Lol... Truth. Nothing outranges a Rail.

I dont know what kind of DPS a Beam does out around 150km, but I know some ammo on a 425mm rail still has that in its optimal with enough falloff to be entirely pointless.
Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#33 - 2014-02-23 20:48:21 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)

Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment.


lasers have longer range then railguns.


lolno.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/23-Feb-1422-38-48_zpsa4664d98.png


thats just skills. you are forgetting mods and range bonuses. the Apoc has slightly more range then the rokh
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#34 - 2014-02-23 20:51:59 UTC
Somebody needs start deciding which to work with first, short range weapons or long range. Because the weaknesses and strengths that short range has vs. its long range counterparts dont always match up.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2014-02-23 20:53:09 UTC
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
thats just skills. you are forgetting mods and range bonuses. the Apoc has slightly more range then the rokh

Actually the Rokh has significantly more range than the Apoc, unless you have your Amarr Battleship skill a lot higher than Caldari Battleship.
I'm getting 163+25 out of Tachyon beam lasers, and 194+30 out of 425mm rails, each with max skills, long range tech II ammo, and nothing else.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
TehCloud
Guardians of the Dodixie
#36 - 2014-02-23 20:55:30 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Lasers and Amarr ships in particular are pigeonholed to EM and thermal damage, so this is a proposal to change just the T2 laser crystals (Conflagration, Scorch, Aurora and Gleam) to EM and Kinetic damage. This puts the lasers on more equal footing with respect to missiles, projectiles and drones.


Lasers have other strengths, instant ammoswitch. And Even a reasonable long range on shortrange turrets :Scorch:
Gallente can't change their damage types either. But it isn't that bad.
You should just start to at least try to adapt to situations... then again you're a person that fits artis on Tengus, I'm not even sure you know anything about this game.

My Condor costs less than that module!
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#37 - 2014-02-23 20:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Stephanie Rosefire wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Damage type isn't the problem with lasers. The problem with lasers is that as soon as the PvP becomes large-scale enough that people have logi on the field and nobody bothers with any kind of tackling other than dictor bubbles, lasers become crap. You can't hope to out-DPS logi so you have to resort to either alphaing the enemy off the field (artillery) or outranging them entirely. (railguns)

Lasers are great in small-scale PvP where you actually tackle your targets, and are probably the strongest weapon system in that environment.


lasers have longer range then railguns.


lolno.
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f9/Dante80/bellycancer/23-Feb-1422-38-48_zpsa4664d98.png


thats just skills. you are forgetting mods and range bonuses. the Apoc has slightly more range then the rokh


lolno. again.

I'm not making fun of you btw. Its just that rails have a serious range advantage over any other weapon. Thats why they get the worst tracking too.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#38 - 2014-02-23 21:01:07 UTC
Very true. Pulse lasers boarder on OP on range alone with scorch. Anytime a short range turret seriously comes up in conversations about long range weaponry that situation should be looked at. They dont really match the range, but its the rare PvE rat that gets out of pulse range. I cant speak for PvP.

Blasters, on thier very best day, do not push an optimal out past 20km. The end of falloff for Null is in the neighborhood of 70km.

I am not sure what is wrong with that picture, but I know Spike in a 425 Rail goes further than that for me, and I am not a Caldari pilot.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#39 - 2014-02-23 21:01:34 UTC
Railguns also have the ability to exchange range for damage to equal out the DPS advantage of lasers. Because of your longer range, you can always use a higher damage ammo than the laser user could use for any given range.

Lasers right now are really simple. Scorch M is very overpowered, everything else sucks.
Stephanie Rosefire
Atlas Protectorate and Empire Defense Agency
#40 - 2014-02-23 21:02:36 UTC
ive used an apoc in the test server that can fire 327km out...