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Rattlesnake Ideas...
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Hairpins Blueprint
The Northerners
Pandemic Horde
#41 - 2014-02-22 23:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hairpins Blueprint
i would like to see just copy of domininx bous, it's awsome it works etc. just remove misle bonus and it's cool.

i am sure we would see much more use of it : ) 400k EHP 800 DPS with 40 km optimal? souds cool isn't it Twisted

fun fact, if you pip it and give links it will have 1m EHP with overloaded hardners ;p
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#42 - 2014-02-23 00:27:48 UTC
Melek D'Ivri wrote:
Nightmare - Lasers & Tracking vs Damping & Beams?
Rattlesnake - Missiles/Shields/Drones (think Raven meets Dominix) vs. Hybrids & ECM (think Megathron meets Scorpion)
Nestor - stays same essentially

The first two really perked my interest, especially the idea of a Hybrid-ECM Rattlesnake (even though I know it looses out on missiles and drones). If the Nestor had a refitting and jump vat bay I think it would be more interesting, but that's another discussion entirely...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#43 - 2014-02-23 00:28:12 UTC
It's 'thing' is tank. It's a space brick.

It has 11.5 effective weapons (7.5 Drones+4 Launchers) It could use an application bonus (explosion velocity/radius) on the missile part, or else a lot more velocity to make torps actually go somewhere.

If it gets anything else, let it be Shield HP % so it can hunker over those sentries like a boss.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#44 - 2014-02-23 01:25:09 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
It's 'thing' is tank. It's a space brick.

It has 11.5 effective weapons (7.5 Drones+4 Launchers) It could use an application bonus (explosion velocity/radius) on the missile part, or else a lot more velocity to make torps actually go somewhere.

If it gets anything else, let it be Shield HP % so it can hunker over those sentries like a boss.

It has a nice passive shield recharge rate - the only problem is you basically neuter the offensive capability to achieve it. Raven Navy gets the explosion radius and Typhoon gets the explosion velocity, so if we're sticking to hulls it's in line to have the 50% missile velocity swapped for a 25% rate of fire.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#45 - 2014-02-23 12:13:05 UTC
Itago Gemulus wrote:
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Caldari Battleship Bonuses (per skill level):
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Gallente Battleship bonuses (per skill level):
10% to drone hitpoints and damage

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Rapid Heavy missile, Cruise Missile and Torpedo damage

The RS does NOT need to be a Caldari domi imo (so no drone range bonus)..having said that, we have to wait and see what CCP has in store for the pirate lines re-balance. Maybe all ships will be refocused.


I agree that it dont need range bonus for drones, but it needs an application bonus for one of its weapon systems. Either make it a drone ship with missiles (domi bonuses) or make it a missile ship with drones (atleast 8 effective launchers + application bonus). Split weapon systems are only good when you can get full bonus for bouth, or its suboptimal for everything


If you add an application bonus you would have to remove the shield resistance bonus. The RS is renowned for its tank, and its a major trait for all three Guristas ships. By moving to 8 effective launchers (while applying the bonus to RHMLs too), you should be able to offset the mixed weapon problem, while keeping the hull somewhat competitive in its niche.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#46 - 2014-02-23 14:44:24 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
If you add an application bonus you would have to remove the shield resistance bonus. The RS is renowned for its tank, and its a major trait for all three Guristas ships. By moving to 8 effective launchers (while applying the bonus to RHMLs too), you should be able to offset the mixed weapon problem, while keeping the hull somewhat competitive in its niche.

You'd have to remove the drone bonus as well, because a 100% missile damage bonus basically puts the Rattlesnake well beyond Marauders in terms of damage. It would potentially dish out almost 1800 DPS out to a range of well over 150km, and if this isn't the definition of "OP" - I'm not sure what is… I think we're going to see a missile-based Pirate ship at some point so I'm holding out for that. +20% Armor resistances, 6 launchers, +25% explosion radius and a +37.5% damage role bonus. Yes, I'd be in heaven...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2014-02-23 15:51:51 UTC
Melek D'Ivri wrote:
I REALLY like that set RoF / DMG idea, I could see something like:

37.5% Rate of Fire bonus to Cruise Missiles, Torpedoes, or Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher (6.4 effective launchers)
- OR -
50% bonus to damage for Cruise Missiles, Heavy Missiles, or Torpedoes (6 effective launchers)

Here's where I add a different take on Pirate Battleships and what CCP could do with it:

Normal Mode:
Caldari Battleship - 4% per level shield resistances
Gallente Battleship - 10% per level drone damage and hit points

Bastion Mode (wtf did he just do that?!?!?):
Caldari Battleship - 15% ECM Target Jammer strength, 25% ECM Target Jammer optimal range and falloff
Gallente Battleship - 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and tracking

Role Bonus changes to: 25% Large Hybrid Turret optimal and Rate of fire

Bastion Module:
Max Velocity Bonus becomes -25% on Pirate Battleship
Shield Boost Bonus becomes 25%
All Damage Resistance Bonuses drop to 10%

So what happens here? How would you describe this ship?

As a normal ship it has 4 missile launchers with effective ability to fire with damage out put of 6 launchers, shield resistances, and drone damage and hit points. It is a Missiles, Drones, Shields hybrid.

When you use the bastion mode you reduce speed, gain slight resistances, gain ability to effectively E-War, and become a hybrid gun platform. With the above bonuses assuming 4 Turret slots you get
[4 guns * 37.5% damage * 25% rate of fire] = 7.333 effective guns. Shields, E-War, Hybrids combination.

THIS would make the Pirate battleships shine to have a "PvE Mode" and a PvP Bastion mode. Just my $.02.


Can we not mention the idiotic bastion bastion mode again please? I find it saddening that this piece of crap made it into production.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#48 - 2014-02-23 18:20:13 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Can we not mention the idiotic bastion bastion mode again please? I find it saddening that this piece of crap made it into production.

That's what we need on the Nestor! Roll

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#49 - 2014-02-23 19:50:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bertrand Butler wrote:
If you add an application bonus you would have to remove the shield resistance bonus. The RS is renowned for its tank, and its a major trait for all three Guristas ships. By moving to 8 effective launchers (while applying the bonus to RHMLs too), you should be able to offset the mixed weapon problem, while keeping the hull somewhat competitive in its niche.

You'd have to remove the drone bonus as well, because a 100% missile damage bonus basically puts the Rattlesnake well beyond Marauders in terms of damage. It would potentially dish out almost 1800 DPS out to a range of well over 150km, and if this isn't the definition of "OP" - I'm not sure what is…


Not really. The RS with a 100% damage bonus would get the same number of effective turrets as a Mach or a Vindi. Here is how it goes now:

Lets then assume a sentry/heavy = 1 turret (blasters do more, artillery does less)
RS have 7.5 effective sentry + 4 effective turrets = 11.5
Vindi have 5 effective sentry + 11 effective turrets = 16
Mach have 4 effective sentry + 11.67 effective turrets = 15.67
Bhall have 3 effective sentry + 8 effective turrets = 11
NM have 3 effective sentry + 10 effective turrets = 13

After the bonus is applied:

RS have 7.5 effective sentry + 8 effective turrets = 15.5
Vindi have 5 effective sentry + 11 effective turrets = 16
Mach have 4 effective sentry + 11.67 effective turrets = 15.67
Bhall have 3 effective sentry + 8 effective turrets = 11
NM have 3 effective sentry + 10 effective turrets = 13

And the RS would be still more penalized than either of them. For 3 reasons
1. Split weapon bonuses
2. More cannibalization of low slots between DDA and BCUs (one damage mod reduces the other weapons' potency)
3. Damage projection problems (unbonused range in drones and missiles), damage application problems (unbonused hull explosion radius and velocity, TPs and/or omnis eat into the natural tank slots).

If you want to buff the RS after the latest omni nerf (that hit it a lot), thats the only way really (making it into a Domi is redundant, and killing the resist bonus is inconsistent with Guristas line). As I said before though, we don't know what CCP has in store for the pirate hulls, so..
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#50 - 2014-02-23 20:50:48 UTC
Good point. Give it a 48%/level boost to drone damage & hitpoints. That way it winds up with 12 effective sentries and 4 launchers. You still wind up with the inherant problems of split weapons, but at least mission rats wont be eating the drones anymore.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-02-23 21:12:46 UTC
Is it the rattlesnake or how people think the rattlesnake should be?

This is pretty carebear, but the Rattlesnake can, without much trouble, deal 1100 dps at ranges beyond 100km. Maybe I am missing something, but that is pretty powerful if you ask me when you consider it's passive tank it still can make use of.

Right now the only real weakness to that setup is the cooldown for the microjump drive....

To me, the biggest whine seems to be that it cannot sit 5km from full battle and keep up with the damage and still deal dps. Neither can any other high damage boat. Difference is effective range. The other (non nestor) faction battleships will outdamage with more tank, at a limited effective range. Fly rattlesnake as a sniper, it excels beyond all the rest. Love it!

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#52 - 2014-02-23 21:33:34 UTC
Problem with using it as a sniper is that you have 60% (or areound that) instant dmg and 40% delayed, not to mention no application for missiles.

Did a fast fitting, using CN BCS and fury missiles i still ended up with 1082dps with Bouncers (Garde wont hit 100km even with 4 OMNI)

So dealing 1100dps beyond 100km is not "without much trouble" as you say. This needed all 6 low slots and some OMNI in mids, whenever into falloff you do less than paper dps
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#53 - 2014-02-23 22:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Not really. The RS with a 100% damage bonus would get the same number of effective turrets as a Mach or a Vindi. Here is how it goes now:

Yes, but with the drone bonus it would still be overpowered. Since it's a shield tank you can run 3 drone damage amplifiers and 3 ballistic controls in all the lows (there's usually a trade-off in most dual weapon setups). You can run 2 drone link augmenters in the highs to increase drone range and you still have enough mids to run 1-2 drone omnis as well. With cruise launchers and wardens you'll be able to hit out for full damage at insane ranges. Run the numbers and you'll see this thing is potentially a 2000 DPS+ monster… I think with torpedoes and ogres you could potentially hit 2300 DPS (probably 2500 DPS overheated).

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-02-23 22:41:04 UTC
The delay damage is moot at best. I know when my sentries will kill the target so I start my missiles firing at next target early. Not so nice for when first start combat or pvp, but after that, doesn't matter. Once first volley is off, you are applying damage no different than any other vessel with damage landing per cycle.

Also, okay.. I was off a bit cause going from memory. 100 km damage output is 1016 damage, no implants, and my missile skills are moderate.

4 T2 cruise launchers with fury. Two drone links

Mids, 2 LSE, 2 Invuln, thermic, omni, and MJD

Low, LSE, 2 bcs, 2 drone damage amps.

Rigs,core defence field extender, one sentry damage, and low friction nozzle

The sentries, I run wardens.

No faction stuff, All T2. This puts it's damage at range on par with every other long range ship I have, sometimes better. Only weakness is frigates, I can use precisions for the cruisers. Frigates are 1 shot by the sentries anyways.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#55 - 2014-02-23 22:48:13 UTC
Even if sentries could not hit the frigates, it's still a drone boat. A faceful of light drones on a bonused hull devours most frigates, and if you are running the Omni's for sentries anyway, you can use medium drones with ease.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#56 - 2014-02-23 23:52:44 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

2. give the ship an ECM strength bonus as befits a guristas battleship.

NO just NO!


Why? It's a pirate ship. It's supposed to be scary.



ecm is a horrible mechanic that should stay limited to support vessels
and on top of that i dont like to see a chance based mechanic on a ship that sould be a froce by it self esp if it is expensive as a rattle.
(i dont like it on a scorp but atleast the hull is cheap)
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#57 - 2014-02-23 23:54:45 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
ecm is a horrible mechanic that should stay limited to support vessels

Oh, I don't think horrible mechanics are limited to ECM...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2014-02-23 23:58:42 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

2. give the ship an ECM strength bonus as befits a guristas battleship.

NO just NO!


Why? It's a pirate ship. It's supposed to be scary.



ecm is a horrible mechanic that should stay limited to support vessels
and on top of that i dont like to see a chance based mechanic on a ship that sould be a froce by it self esp if it is expensive as a rattle.
(i dont like it on a scorp but atleast the hull is cheap)


Isn't a gun turret a chance-based weapon?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#59 - 2014-02-24 00:29:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Not really. The RS with a 100% damage bonus would get the same number of effective turrets as a Mach or a Vindi. Here is how it goes now:

l. With cruise launchers and wardens you'll be able to hit out for full damage at insane ranges. Run the numbers and you'll see this thing is potentially a 2000 DPS+ monster… I think with torpedoes and ogres you could potentially hit 2300 DPS (probably 2500 DPS overheated).


Where do you get these numbers?

With Fury Cruises and wardens, the RS would get about 1422DPS, assuming you use 3 CN BCUs. Thats paper DPS btw (with lvl V skills), and also the same amount the Navy Typhoon does with 4 BCU + 3 DDA.

Torps and ogres would give you 1973DPS, with horrible projection AND application.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-02-24 00:31:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Bertrand Butler wrote:

With Fury Cruises and wardens, the RS would get about 1422DPS, assuming you use 3 CN BCUs. Thats paper DPS btw (with lvl V skills), and also the same amount the Navy Typhoon does with 4 BCU + 3 DDA.

Torps and ogres would give you 1973DPS, with horrible projection AND application.


Just like every other glass cannon ship.....

Edit, also, update on 1100dps rattler at 100 km. I had been fiddling around with it, and forgot I was down a sentry. Lost one in a mish.

Screenie for proof. Nova Furies are what are loaded atm.

http://i.imgur.com/yOE8IZr.png?1

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.