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Jita locked out again.... this is getting worst.

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#181 - 2014-02-22 19:58:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Infinity Ziona wrote:
So who is it up to God? After 8 years the players are definitely not going to do it.
Then it's obviously not a particularly big problem, or people would have long since started using the many tools at our disposal to remove it.

Yeah this fantastic logic. "There's no problem with the application because if there was the users would have worked around it years ago.".




CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#182 - 2014-02-22 20:32:35 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Yeah this fantastic logic. "There's no problem with the application because if there was the users would have worked around it years ago."

More along the lines of “the potential problem is already solved, and the lack of people using the solutions suggests that they don't consider it a problem to begin with.”

The solution is still there. What's the point of adding it a second time if it's already not used?
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#183 - 2014-02-22 20:32:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
So in other words, the spammers don't cause that much server load, but they do are the reason legit players can't actually get in.
No. In other words, the spammers don't cause that much sever load so they are not the reason legit players can't get in. If they were removed, the cap would just be lowered to maintain the same node load and you'd still not get in.
What Tippia said.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#184 - 2014-02-22 20:34:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
That makes no sense at all. The current cap is 2175 and if spammers are taking up 1000 of those (or whatever arbitrary number) then that directly cuts in to the 2175 total pilots allowed.
…a cap that is set to accommodate the 1175 non-spammers and the 1000 spammers. If you were to remove the spammers, somehow, the cap would be set to 1175 instead since that's how much load the system can take (after all, the spammers don't contribute to that load). The cap is set based on the load generated by the players logging or jumping into the system. Removing the people that add nothing to that load would just reveal that the actual cap is 1175, so you'd still have just as many slots available for the non-spammers and you'd still not get in.
Again what Tippia said.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Mag's
Azn Empire
#185 - 2014-02-22 20:36:43 UTC
/thread

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#186 - 2014-02-22 20:39:32 UTC
they should introduce a system "tax" that charges you for jumping into Jita as well as a "tax" on how long you stay in Jita (that escalates) ie: you pay 1m isk for the first 1/2 hr then 5m isk for the next 1/2 hr etc... etc...

Wanna stay in jita all day - please pay the Caldari State War Veteran Benevolent Fund 1 Billion Isk for the priviledge.

Should clear out the riff raff

In fact there should be additional concord fees imposed as well - since extra security is required to deal with all the traffic.
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#187 - 2014-02-22 20:42:27 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
That makes no sense at all. The current cap is 2175 and if spammers are taking up 1000 of those (or whatever arbitrary number) then that directly cuts in to the 2175 total pilots allowed.
…a cap that is set to accommodate the 1175 non-spammers and the 1000 spammers. If you were to remove the spammers, somehow, the cap would be set to 1175 instead since that's how much load the system can take (after all, the spammers don't contribute to that load). The cap is set based on the load generated by the players logging or jumping into the system. Removing the people that add nothing to that load would just reveal that the actual cap is 1175, so you'd still have just as many slots available for the non-spammers and you'd still not get in.
Again what Tippia said.

Thanks for the clarification, appreciated.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#188 - 2014-02-22 20:43:50 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Tippia wrote:
See above
Your assumption isn't based on any facts. You just think that's how it works. Unless Explorer comes in here to confirm that the cap is there with the fact that x % of it will be spammers; you're talking rubbish. It makes just as much sense to say that spammers removed from the system free up space for legitimate players.
But I've said it so many times before Evil both on the forums and twitter. Most recently on twitter here: https://twitter.com/erlendur/status/435479640388673536

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#189 - 2014-02-22 20:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Explorer
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
You know what's kind of irritating?

Jita is capped at 2175 only.

All market transactions are done on a different node.
All chatting is done on a different node.

This actually removes two of the most engaged things happening in Jita 4-4, right?

... and that's kind of irritating. I'd bet that most people believe that trading and chatting are the things
actually slowing the node down the most.

So ... what's actually slowing down the node so much?

The session changes ?? Jita does have quite a few gates and there are always several people
at the New Caldari and Perimeter gates. Then we have several stations too.

Is it true?

Why did I write 'only' in my second line? Because 2175 isn't that much, if you put it into context.

If you look at the bloodbath of B-R5RB and think of all the things that are going on, including amount of ships, drones, session changes due to explosions/jump-ins, people clicking modules, PHYSICS!, etc etc ...

Yes, there's TiDi at 10% ... but the node wasn't even reinforced !

TL;DR: There was SO much more going on in B-R5RB which ran on a non-reinforced node with population count comparable to the one of Jita for quite a while. Jita runs on a reinforced node AND has two of the most happening things in system outsourced onto a different node!

What's actually going on that you need to have a cap as low as 2175?
The load in Jita is primarily session changes. There are 4 types: Pilots jumping into the system and out of the system, pilots docking and undocking (mostly at 4-4). Secondary load is inventory transactions: There are mostly two types: Pilots going from one location to another (see session changes above), and market items being put onto the market and being delivered from the market (note, the market itself is then on other nodes). Tertiary load is then warping and pew-pew.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Em arr Roids
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2014-02-22 20:54:53 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
You know what's kind of irritating?

Jita is capped at 2175 only.

All market transactions are done on a different node.
All chatting is done on a different node.

This actually removes two of the most engaged things happening in Jita 4-4, right?

... and that's kind of irritating. I'd bet that most people believe that trading and chatting are the things
actually slowing the node down the most.

So ... what's actually slowing down the node so much?

The session changes ?? Jita does have quite a few gates and there are always several people
at the New Caldari and Perimeter gates. Then we have several stations too.

Is it true?

Why did I write 'only' in my second line? Because 2175 isn't that much, if you put it into context.

If you look at the bloodbath of B-R5RB and think of all the things that are going on, including amount of ships, drones, session changes due to explosions/jump-ins, people clicking modules, PHYSICS!, etc etc ...

Yes, there's TiDi at 10% ... but the node wasn't even reinforced !

TL;DR: There was SO much more going on in B-R5RB which ran on a non-reinforced node with population count comparable to the one of Jita for quite a while. Jita runs on a reinforced node AND has two of the most happening things in system outsourced onto a different node!

What's actually going on that you need to have a cap as low as 2175?
The load in Jita is primarily session changes. There are 4 types: Pilots jumping into the system and out of the system, pilots docking and undocking (mostly at 4-4). Secondary load is inventory transactions: There are mostly two types: Pilots going from one location to another (see session changes above), and market items being put onto the market and being delivered from the market (note, the market itself is then on other nodes). Tertiary load is then warping and pew-pew.


Allow us to transport stuff in and out of jita via npc type mechanics and then we cann finally put this to bed. Telling us not to bother using Jita as a lot of trolls do, is rediculous.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#191 - 2014-02-22 20:57:25 UTC
Em arr Roids wrote:
Allow us to transport stuff in and out of jita via npc type mechanics and then we cann finally put this to bed. Telling us not to bother using Jita as a lot of trolls do, is rediculous.

Why should NPCs be handed a job players can do just fine on their own?
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#192 - 2014-02-22 20:59:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
What's actually going on that you need to have a cap as low as 2175?
Lots of people logging in, jumping in, and undocking, which requires large amounts of calculations to set up their in-space object. Unfortunately, it's also not something that TiDi is a very good countermeasure for, which is why everyone is (or was) hoping for some progress on the brain-in-a-box project that would sideload all those calculations onto a separate server.

Fleets generate a completely different kind of load. Sure, when it jumps in, all those calculations have to be run, which creates a momentary spike, but once that's done, everything else is just the standard ongoing simulation running at whatever speed it needs to run at. That load is generally much smaller per ship than the complex task of fetching all character, ship, module, etc. data, mashing it together and producing a single object for the simulation to handle.
It's worth emphasizing that while fleet jump-in load is usually a massive spike (CPU to 100% and TiDi to 10% for a while) then Jita's jump-in/out un/dock load is a steady stream.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#193 - 2014-02-22 21:01:17 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Em arr Roids wrote:
Allow us to transport stuff in and out of jita via npc type mechanics and then we cann finally put this to bed. Telling us not to bother using Jita as a lot of trolls do, is rediculous.
Why should NPCs be handed a job players can do just fine on their own?
Indeed, use a player-courier service or go to any of the other major hubs:

(Jita IV - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant)
Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy
Dodixie IX - Moon 20 - Federation Navy Assembly Plant
Rens VI - Moon 8 - Brutor Tribe Treasury

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Mario Putzo
#194 - 2014-02-22 21:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
TLDR

If Jita is over capacity so go some place else to do market stuff. If you don't get into Jita thats your problem. But don't worry CCP will devote all assets they can to making sure 4K dudes can shoot each other at .01% Real Time in 0.0 space.
Em arr Roids
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2014-02-22 21:29:58 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Em arr Roids wrote:
Allow us to transport stuff in and out of jita via npc type mechanics and then we cann finally put this to bed. Telling us not to bother using Jita as a lot of trolls do, is rediculous.
Why should NPCs be handed a job players can do just fine on their own?
Indeed, use a player-courier service or go to any of the other major hubs:

(Jita IV - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant)
Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy
Dodixie IX - Moon 20 - Federation Navy Assembly Plant
Rens VI - Moon 8 - Brutor Tribe Treasury



And why should i fly 20 jumps away from my area of operations, just to use dodixie or the other markets (and probably pay more than i would have done) ? and what is the point of jita if we all had to go elsewhere ?
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#196 - 2014-02-22 21:34:36 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
TLDR

If Jita is over capacity so go some place else to do market stuff. If you don't get into Jita thats your problem. But don't worry CCP will devote all assets they can to making sure 4K dudes can shoot each other at .01% Real Time in 0.0 space.


Actually Jita's node is more powerful than the fleet battle nodes (although some of the super-hyped battles have borrowed the Jita node for a day).

Overhauling session changes (brain in the box) needs to be an super high priority though, as that will drastically help trade hubs and fleet battles alike. Of course I'm assuming it's a really complex problem you can't just throw manpower at, but the Jita situation is pretty darn bad now. There's absolutely no other system in the universe where you can trade high volumes of isk
Travasty Space
Pilots of Epic
#197 - 2014-02-22 21:36:17 UTC
Em arr Roids wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Em arr Roids wrote:
Allow us to transport stuff in and out of jita via npc type mechanics and then we cann finally put this to bed. Telling us not to bother using Jita as a lot of trolls do, is rediculous.
Why should NPCs be handed a job players can do just fine on their own?
Indeed, use a player-courier service or go to any of the other major hubs:

(Jita IV - Moon 4 - Caldari Navy Assembly Plant)
Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy
Dodixie IX - Moon 20 - Federation Navy Assembly Plant
Rens VI - Moon 8 - Brutor Tribe Treasury



And why should i fly 20 jumps away from my area of operations, just to use dodixie or the other markets (and probably pay more than i would have done) ? and what is the point of jita if we all had to go elsewhere ?


We the players made Jita so start asking all the players the point of Jita.

PS Amarr is quite comparable to Jita.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#198 - 2014-02-22 21:41:28 UTC
mechtech wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
TLDR

If Jita is over capacity so go some place else to do market stuff. If you don't get into Jita thats your problem. But don't worry CCP will devote all assets they can to making sure 4K dudes can shoot each other at .01% Real Time in 0.0 space.


Actually Jita's node is more powerful than the fleet battle nodes (although some of the super-hyped battles have borrowed the Jita node for a day).

Overhauling session changes (brain in the box) needs to be an super high priority though, as that will drastically help trade hubs and fleet battles alike. Of course I'm assuming it's a really complex problem you can't just throw manpower at, but the Jita situation is pretty darn bad now. There's absolutely no other system in the universe where you can trade high volumes of isk

Not exactly true the blade with the core that jita runs on has 3 other cores that can run at the same level as jita. one is used for systems that a battle node as been requested for and the other two are assigned other trade systems or other high usage systems.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Mario Putzo
#199 - 2014-02-22 21:46:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
mechtech wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
TLDR

If Jita is over capacity so go some place else to do market stuff. If you don't get into Jita thats your problem. But don't worry CCP will devote all assets they can to making sure 4K dudes can shoot each other at .01% Real Time in 0.0 space.


Actually Jita's node is more powerful than the fleet battle nodes (although some of the super-hyped battles have borrowed the Jita node for a day).


Exactly but why is Jita capped, but space fights are not. I get inconvenienced every single weekend. Yet nearly every time there is a nullsec fight CCP trips all over themselves trying to make the blob fights more convenient...even by inconveniencing people in Jita by taking its node and making it even more restrictive.

It doesn't make sense that one aspect of the game is being propped up with every last ounce of energy CCP can muster, and another is an issue solved by:

"Just go to another Market Area"

Maybe if the guys in nullsec weren't seeing CCP bend over backwards to accommodate them then in the future CCP wouldn't need to bend over backwards to accommodate them. Maybe CCP could instead I don't know actually invest that time into making the server as a whole more self sustainable and accommodating to everyone and not just cherry pick which sector of the game is worthy of extra effort and support.

Pretty **** service when one group of players are catered to and another group are asked to respect the "limits" of the game and just go X number of jumps out of their way. Seems almost like a double standard.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#200 - 2014-02-22 21:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mario Putzo wrote:
Exactly but why is Jita capped, but space fights are not.
Because it's easily defined and largely non-disruptive for Jita but undefinable and creates horribly broken mechanics for fights.

Quote:
Yet nearly every time there is a nullsec fight CCP trips all over themselves trying to make the blob fights more convenient.
Not really. Just more possible without the server dying in the process. I mean, sure, not having the server keel over is pretty convenient, but that doesn't make the fights themselves convenient.

Quote:
Maybe if the guys in nullsec weren't seeing CCP bend over backwards to accommodate them
For one, do you have an example of this ever happening? For another, so what if they do? Also, how does providing a dedicated perma-reinforced node for their use not qualify as bending over backwards to accommodate the Jita vistors?