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LEGIT ideas to improve wormhole space

First post
Author
The Cue
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2014-02-22 18:54:33 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
For most lower WH groups, who tend to be smaller in size, the question of higher WH PVP is "I want to Fight but I can't fight". You're all too big. You all have too many Logi/Carriers. You all run tons of E-war. There's no point for a smaller group. I see a higher WH, I BM it and move on.

I'm AU TZ , which means I'm often alone. Thus I can reliably take on up to ~5-6 people at once if I know what's there and I plan things out right. If there's Logi, I'm out, won't be able to break it solo. If there's E-War I'm out, won't be able to do anything. If there's more than 2 Domi's or a Armageddon, I'm out, I'll be neuted to death.


If you never jump into C5+ WHs, you're seriously missing out. You also seem totally unwilling to try to out maneuver your opponent. There's not an easy solution to Logi when you're solo, but larger groups will almost always assume that going against one ship is just a gank, so it's quite easy to lure them into a bad fight using positioning or wormhole variables. Depending upon your pilot skill, heavily tanked BS/Marauders can engage at a very serious disadvantage, or you can use nano ships to kite away and draw people away from their logi, or draw the logi away from the group. You can also try to pick off stragglers or the unaware with intel denial(AKA, staying cloaked until the right chance comes up).

Of the big high class groups I've seen lately, I haven't seen much in the ways of logi or E-War. Blue-Fire engaged with a pair of T1 logi, we had plenty of DPS to push through their reps, it didn't hurt they engaged our shield gang with their armor gang in a Pulsar.

BayneNothos wrote:
I don't mind throwing a ship away on a suicide fight if I think I can get a kill or two out of it. As far as I've seen so far, going up means I'll not get anything out of the trip. You don't mine, I've never seen a PI runner in the few times I've been upwards. I can't kill an Orca in less time that it'll take you to reinforce it with a dozen people. What exactly do you expect me to do going up? Park next to your POS and self destruct. Cause from my point of view, that's what it is.
I can't even do your sites when you're not home to mess with your isk income.


Grab a Marauder and run their sites? You can do that solo. I also have a corp mate who makes a lot of ISK running all the Instrumentals he finds in C5s. He mines them for the 15 or so minutes they're there before sleepers spawn and makes a fair bit of ISK doing so.

James Arget wrote:
My income should come from my entire chain, and not my home.

With the current escalation mechanics, it's far safer and more profitable to stay at home to make my ISK than it is to try to venture out and explore what's around me. It isn't even possible to fully utilize anoms without moving in, since even a fully committed lockout farming crew will only get 3 of the 4 needed capitals into a connected system. That's insane. I would very much like to see the PVE updated so that there are c5 and c6 sites across the spectrum from non-escalatable to some which could pay off with as many as six capitals. Ore sites which escalate on rorquals! I shouldn't be able to collapse all connections, leave the static unopened, and then be in position for most efficient carebearing.


The crux of this situation is that capital escalations aren't challenging unless you mess something up(like loosing your only Loki in system, heh), so piling all your caps into a site isn't a big deal. There's not a way to make PvE challenging, players will always find a way to complete it given enough ISK motivation. Reducing capital escalations to one per cap(so one carrier one dread) then increasing the actual escalation size(from 6 to say 10?) and removing the ability to farm them would make farming your static a very profitable venture, and it'd keep your home hole pretty clean, so farming ones static would be pretty much a must.
Bussan
Kabukicho
#62 - 2014-02-22 19:32:53 UTC
I live in a lower lvl wh, and honestly I don't understand why people keep crying that they cannot do enough pvp, and wspace is getting too easy and safe, when the biggest problem is exactly their attitude.
Yeah, I'm not much into pvp, but never escaped from a fair fight when it happened, even if my chances usually tend to be zero because of my not-pvp fits and my non-existent pvp skills :)
Problem is... those fights usually never happen. 99% of the time, the so-called pvp lovers just try to jump on my ore or gas miners, probers (yeah, sometimes happens to forget to cloak^^), haulers... we hardly had even plex runners jumped, unless the fight was like 3v1 or worse.
Maybe we just had "bad luck"? could be, but the idea I had so far of wspace pvp is not really that good... of course it's natural that people wanna have easy kills, but at least don't cry that you cannot do pvp when most of the times you are the first ones to avoid fights unless you are 100% sure of winning (general personal thoughts, not related to anybody who wrote in this thread.)

On the same line, making wspace a nightmare for "carebears" or anyway people with other interests than pvp (but that are anyway pvp targets, and might sometimes enjoy fighting too), will just make them leave wspace because it's no more interesting for their playstyle. So you pure-pvpers will just keep roaming trying to find others like you inside hundreds of empty wh systems. Is it what you want?
Or is it better to actually make wspace more interesting and appealing for a wide range of players, without changing it to a null copy?
Even because (I can give you my personal experience about it) people living in a wh WILL learn to survive and fight, even if at a lower level than dedicated pvpers, and eventually they might get more interested in that part of the game and try to step up and become the hunter instead of always being hunted.

So all the suggestions that would make life harder without a real benefit and would just make people become pvpers or quit wspace are imho very bad for us (as wspace "citizens")... especially when they can still be acceptable by big groups with some members online 24/7, but that would be a pain in the ass for small/medium groups, or even solo players.

Bussan
Kabukicho
#63 - 2014-02-22 19:39:01 UTC
So what can we do to improve wspace life? Well... actually wspace is already pretty nice, that's why we live here! :)
But anyway...

1. Balance the profit on different class systems. C2 are generally less profitable even than C1... and the gap between the "escalable" classes and the others is pretty huge.
Especially relic/data sites on lower classes are really useless... good just for the sleepers inside them. But this could change following some other ideas I will write here..

2. I like the idea of some kind of trade station, or module. It might be even more useful to have tradings between the different people living in the same hole, encouraging to share the same system, more than having the occasional buyer from other systems (whs are random, so it's impossible to have regular buyers/sellers from other systems, but still can be a nice bonus).
Make it a deployable structure, that can be anchored everywhere, and visible in the overview (so people can warp to it without scanning it), but because of obvious limitations due to people that would love to pop it as soon as they see it, make it invulnerable. BUT it have to be linked to another module inside a POS, that can be defended as a normal POS module as much as the corp like it.
If you destroy the POS you can destroy the module inside the pos and then the deployed market too. The owner of the Market module can put up both sell and buy orders... customers can only buy from the sell orders, or fulfill the buy orders.

3. make wspace something that is not half unique and half the same as kspace.
We have sleepers... and no other npcs (pirate npcs never learnt to use probes?)... weird... we have the same planet types as kspace and the same moons... we can do PI but we cannot do moon harvesting... weird... we have any type of ore present in the universe, but we have no ice, and we have wspace only gases... weird...
So.... starting from the idea that we like unique, more than similar to kspace:
Why don't we get a new (or more than one...) type of planets that you can only find on wspace? PI can still be used, but the produced commodities will be used to fuel up "T3-POS", manufacture T3 items (not just ships... but modules, arrays, and so on... more on it later). Moons can become just useless rocks, or they can introduce wspace moongoo if the like it... couple it with wspace PI, sleepers salvage, wspace gas...and you have a unique indy chain that basically is the same you have in kspace, just with different mats.
Why don't we remove ores at all... or give wspace everything, included ice. Or add to the belts some wspace only ores, used in T3 manufactory. All could be good... just not half and half...
Why don't let pirates factions coming inside wh sometimes? they can build some new plexes... or just have roaming fleets (sized according to WH class) moving from planet to planet or moon, that players have to scan down...
Why not making some "sleepers officers spawn" with special loot?
Why not making sleepers loot table a little bit more exciting? (atm you already know what they will drop, and the only "exciting random part" is if/how many ribbons you will salvage)
For example introducing T3 modules... they can occasionally drop the modules, or the bpcs... the bpo of the same modules/ammo might drop from data sites... or just the bpc, if wanna keep those modules rare. Just make things more interesting...
Why not expand the T3-idea to other things? other ships (haulers, ore and gas miners, other classes of combat ships... as well as modules, ammo, weapons and rigs... and even better... T3 modular POS)
They don't even have to be unique, stats-wise... might be the same as other t2 stuff, just wspace-themed. Different look, different mats (from wspace), same values (to avoid balancing nightmares).

There can be tons of other ideas like these... the problem is IF CCP wanna actually change something in wspace and if they want, how much effort they wanna put on it.

PS. Sorry for the text wall... just it's long time I wanted to talk about some of those things.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#64 - 2014-02-22 19:42:10 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Dmitry Wizard wrote:
outposts

Do you really want to introduce docking games into wspace?


Let em dock. If it's destructible, they still die.

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

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dan skirata
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2014-02-22 19:58:15 UTC  |  Edited by: dan skirata
I agree it would be cool to have more T3/Sleeper themed ships and modules. It would add more interest for wormholes, and would be great content creation. I also think for destructible stations, no one should be bared access to dock, but the Corp that deploys it can charge whatever they wish for non corp/Alliance members. As I said earlier, all frontiers are colonized so it would be cool to see new ways in how wormhole space can be settled. (not permanent settlement, even nothing settled today is necessarily permanent)

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Bob Artis
Rolled Out
#66 - 2014-02-22 20:47:52 UTC
Alright well here is my stupid suggestion. Could we get more options for massing wormholes?

Seriously right now it's a math and estimation game when you want a wormhole gone. Throwing battleships in hot or cold and watching for reductions is fun and all but couldn't we just have a more specialized way to get it done?

If we could have a high slot module like a turret that can load mass rounds and fire at the wormholes to add mass to them I would be soooo happy. Hell I would even take a low/mid slot module where its sole purpose is to add mass to your ship. Have a 100m ship go out and turn on a whole rack of these things and he can come back at 500m mass.
Lajos Perseus
False Profits
#67 - 2014-02-22 20:49:40 UTC
If ccp puts stations in wh space I'll just leave and go to null because essentially that's what it will become.
Joshua Lorne
The Night Crew
#68 - 2014-02-22 20:55:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Joshua Lorne
The Cue wrote:
Joshua Lorne wrote:
such structures wouldn't be conflict drivers at all. They would be a waste. People who won't come out and fight, also won't come out to defend said structures. just more targets of boring structure grinding and padded killboards. Wouldn't make a difference.

Though I'm not sure I understand your post, so I might be off base

So what you're saying is, you wouldn't fly out of your POS shield to fight an opponent you have numerical superiority on and have had an hour or two to rile up your guys, plan your fleet comp, make bookmarks for pings if needed and what not? Because I'm pretty sure most people would, maybe you're doing a bit too much of that making ISK stuff. Not sure where you get structure grinding from either, pretty sure I said low EHP.


Now I'm really not sure what you are talking about. Sorry
We only blue ball a fight when we are the ones out numbered and out gunned.
Hell, when people jump our ratting fleets, we usually stay and fight.
What we don't do, is throw ships under the bus when we have 3-4 guys online and some 35+ man fleet is knocking at the door. And no low EHP structures will change that... Ever

Structures offer no insentive to come out and defend them, no insentive to fight. They'll make no difference.
It's a waste.

We don't need more structures for people to shoot at and pad their killmails with. (Aka, structure grinding) because that's the only purpose they would serve. For about a week, till people realized they're not worth anchoring.


As for trade hubs in W-space.
It's called HiSec
Go there

Wormholes do NOT need market access, or jump clone access or stations, or any other K-space comforts.

If you want to be comfortable in wormholes. Learn to scan.
Joshua Lorne
The Night Crew
#69 - 2014-02-22 21:20:02 UTC
On another note.
reading other peoples posts have givin me some suggestions

1. ALL sleeper combat sites in ALL wormholes have a random trigger in ALL waves.
2. Smallish (based on wormhole class) but random sleeper spawns at POCO's. So you have to scout and clear them before running PI. (Mostly small frigate spawns, so as not to just be farmed for isk. But warp scrambling little transport killing bastards)
3. Similar sleeper spawns at wormholes. Random chance of spawn.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#70 - 2014-02-22 21:25:56 UTC
WH stuff is about PVP and NOT about easy mode. Don't change that.

Any kind of station/hub/dressting room - NO
Any kind of passive harvestable anything - NO
Any kind of widget that screws with mass/time mechanics - NO

ISK balancing - sure
More ways to make more isk in c5/c6 - are you kidding me?

There is a definite pull to make wh space easier and safer and more k-spacier. Please resist that. We don't need more players in wh space - we need more good/fun players in wh space.

There is no module or mechanic that is going to make folks more or less risk averse. Anyone claiming that some new eve thinger (module, deployable, mechanic - whatever) will drive conflict is either dumb or has some self involved alterior motive. (example - moon goo in wh - it will have high value and just as PL stangled moon goo in null some one will strangle moon goo in wh space - [PRO HINT] the guys wanting moon goo in wh space are the ones that are pretty sure they can lock it down)

The only module that will drive conflict is the imaginary high slot CAN OPENER module that we've all dreamed of for years.

You can improve gameplay through mechanics and stuff, but you can't drive conflict or create content with a module. At the end of the day its you the players that do that.

When folks come up w/ a good idea - look at it with a cynical eye. Are they 1) lazy 2) bearish isk whores 3) lazy bearish isk whores 4) looking to make wh space more fun.
Doc Hollidai
V0LTA
OnlyFleets.
#71 - 2014-02-22 21:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Hollidai
Iteration on wspace intentions in multiple packages in order to deliver real content over the next several patch cycles.

Create more space (10ish systems?)
-new Wspace without moons
-inability to close/crit wormholes for bearing operations (lots of risk)
-multiple multiple statics
-statics auto-open
-structure that spawns wormhole to this space (4+ hour online time?, 2 hour stability, fueled by blue loot, very low mass)
-bearing which does not lend itself to current farming mechanics of c5/c6
-sleepers camp wormholes
-more ewar from sleepers
-sleepers drop bubbles
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#72 - 2014-02-22 21:49:02 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
I feel the best way to improve WH space is to have it grow in all areas of WH space. My personal opinion for growth in all areas to occur it must first occur in low class WH's. Growth in C1>4's will lead to players wanting to change their Wh class eventually and seek out C5/C6 life either on their own or with existing large corps.

lots of ideas

TL;DR - Not going to happen lazy asses.


I must say I agree with all of these +1
The Cue
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2014-02-22 22:05:20 UTC
Joshua Lorne wrote:
Now I'm really not sure what you are talking about. Sorry
We only blue ball a fight when we are the ones out numbered and out gunned.
Hell, when people jump our ratting fleets, we usually stay and fight.
What we don't do, is throw ships under the bus when we have 3-4 guys online and some 35+ man fleet is knocking at the door. And no low EHP structures will change that... Ever

Structures offer no insentive to come out and defend them, no insentive to fight. They'll make no difference.
It's a waste.

We don't need more structures for people to shoot at and pad their killmails with. (Aka, structure grinding) because that's the only purpose they would serve. For about a week, till people realized they're not worth anchoring.


Do you have language problems or something? Poor English? I'm not asking as an insult, I'm seriously asking, because I can't understand why you start off every post about how you don't understand me then completely construe it the wrong way.

I don't care about killmails. MTUs shouldn't have killmails, I am not sure why any of the anchorables do.

The concept is very simple, a way to create a short timer in a system. Maybe it's something I anchor in your system, and if the anchoring completes, your PI turns off for four hours. I don't really care about what you do to motivate people to anchor it, so long as it does get used. It has some kind of value to it, and it's got a 2ish hour timer on it. If you don't see how timers create conflict, I must ask if this is EVE you're playing, since timers are a significant conflict driver in EVE.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#74 - 2014-02-22 22:06:02 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:


You can improve gameplay through mechanics and stuff, but you can't drive conflict or create content with a module. At the end of the day its you the players that do that.


This x1000

No trolling please

Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-02-22 22:14:55 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
You can improve gameplay through mechanics and stuff, but you can't drive conflict or create content with a module. At the end of the day its you the players that do that.

This x1000

can we make this the official WH motto?

There is no Bob.

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Joshua Lorne
The Night Crew
#76 - 2014-02-22 23:13:58 UTC
The Cue wrote:


Do you have language problems or something? Poor English? I'm not asking as an insult, I'm seriously asking, because I can't understand why you start off every post about how you don't understand me then completely construe it the wrong way.

I don't care about killmails. MTUs shouldn't have killmails, I am not sure why any of the anchorables do.

The concept is very simple, a way to create a short timer in a system. Maybe it's something I anchor in your system, and if the anchoring completes, your PI turns off for four hours. I don't really care about what you do to motivate people to anchor it, so long as it does get used. It has some kind of value to it, and it's got a 2ish hour timer on it. If you don't see how timers create conflict, I must ask if this is EVE you're playing, since timers are a significant conflict driver in EVE.



I did totally misunderstand what you are saying. Thought you ment adding upgrade structures to system in hopes people would defend them. Didn't realize you ment downgrade structure your enemy anchors in hopes you'll try and take it out.

Thanks for clarifying.

Still not sure that would do anything however, people are not going to do PI or anything like that with hostiles in their home, so waiting out the timer of such structures would be a moot point.
No one's going to shed tears at not being able to do PI for 4 hours.

Best way to create conflict in wormholes is to scan down your chain and look for it.
Be creative with your bait.
They don't take it, move on to the next hole till you find someone who does.

You have a big fleet, roam hi class wormholes for another big fleet. You prolly won't find one in low class holes.

And stop b!tching that the 6 guys in the POS won't come out and engage your 40+ man fleet.



Joshua Lorne
The Night Crew
#77 - 2014-02-22 23:31:29 UTC
also

Have suggestion for POS mechanics.

Simply allow CEO and/or Directors to set Tab/CHA/SMA access to individual members instead of setting the roles group required to access.

So CEO and maybe directors could still access everything, but could set a tab in CHA so that a specific member only could access only regardless of roles. That way you assign tabs/SMA's ect. to people, and they don't have to worry about other members being able to access their stuff and stealing. Only themselves and the CEO and possibly directors could access their stuff.

If your CEO is stealing from his members, you have bigger problems then just corp thvery
Alundil
Rolled Out
#78 - 2014-02-22 23:41:37 UTC
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
dan skirata wrote:
Allna wrote:
dan skirata wrote:
A sort of trading post structure that can be anchored off a moon, allowing people to set up buy and sell orders in wormhole space. Every time someone comes into your system you don't have to kill themSmile It would add a more interesting economic lifestyle to wormhole space, and could possibly enable some wormholers to not visit HS as often for logistics.


I'm really confused about the highlighted/underlined part.


Assuming you are asking seriously, from my experiences so far in wormholes when someone enters the system you are in people either POS up or go on a hunt to find them and kill them. If people set up trading posts, there would be more of a reason to become more friendly with random people who appear in system.


Define... "friendly"


Friendly..... You know when you see some poor stranded pilot in your system and their hull is all shimmery as if it was frozen. So naturally in order to render aid you activate modules that output heat.... Like anti-matter and lasers.... In the spirit of assistance like the merchant marines of yore.

Or when their ship is floating listlessly in space as if they have lost all power to their propulsion devices. So in the same vein that the road service AAA might arrive and offer to jump start or tow the helpless vehicle. In the purest of intentions you offer to push them to safe berth using the only form of portable propulsion you have.... You know missiles....

Or when you see what looks like venting energy or atmospheric gases escaping from their hull. It's the good Samaritan in all of us that causes us to try and help patch the leak with some thing with some mass... Like projectiles...

Friendly like that right? It's not or fault that we still need some practice on the delivery mechanism... slowing the projectiles enough or removing the warhead from the missiles first, well those are just unfortunate accidents. But the good intentions were always there. Just need more practice.

I'm right behind you

Allna
Aim High
#79 - 2014-02-22 23:58:57 UTC
Bob Artis wrote:
Alright well here is my stupid suggestion. Could we get more options for massing wormholes?

Seriously right now it's a math and estimation game when you want a wormhole gone. Throwing battleships in hot or cold and watching for reductions is fun and all but couldn't we just have a more specialized way to get it done?

If we could have a high slot module like a turret that can load mass rounds and fire at the wormholes to add mass to them I would be soooo happy. Hell I would even take a low/mid slot module where its sole purpose is to add mass to your ship. Have a 100m ship go out and turn on a whole rack of these things and he can come back at 500m mass.


I also would like to see a more "scientific" approach to collapsing wormholes, it is a bit "clunky" right now, though not that big of an issue if you have enough people around.

Any mechanic introduced for wormhole collapsing without having to traverse the wormhole I would like to see it still cause you to be polarized after each "hit", assuming each "hit" causes the same mass addition it would have had you flown through and back in the ship you're flying.

The act of being vulnerable on the hole when trying to collapse it is a pretty critical piece of how w-space works that has been there all along and should stay.
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#80 - 2014-02-23 12:03:01 UTC
The Cue wrote:

If you don't see how timers create conflict, I must ask if this is EVE you're playing, since timers are a significant conflict driver in EVE.

Do you have langauge problems because you missed the entire point of his post:

Joshua Lorne wrote:

What we don't do, is throw ships under the bus when we have 3-4 guys online and some 35+ man fleet is knocking at the door. And no low EHP structures will change that... Ever

No amount of ******** crap is going to suddenly generate fights when you bring more logi than the other side has ships (shoutout to you, SSC)

If you get blueballed from blobbing horrendously all the time then learn to bait better or bring less autists

The best deployable structure to counter blueballing would be a massive space mirror to show people where the problem lies