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Q Ship conversions for transport ships
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#21 - 2014-01-25 18:32:17 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Its called fitting slots. Lots of non-combat ships have them. Battle orca, battle rorqual, battle industrial, battle hulk, these concepts have existed and seen occasional use for years.

That's all well and good, but when you see a ship currently, you automatically know it has predictable limits.

These ship's designs have some flexibility, but ultimately they are pigeon holed quite easily.

To be fair... Q-ships had the same problem. They were originally "trade" ships and even with major modifications they could never match a real combat ship in a direct, all-out confrontation.

Not always true... The German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran went toe-to-toe with the HMAS Sydney, and came off slightly the better. Of course, in this context that means that the Kormoran was left burning and crippled, but she's driven the Sydney to retire; burning, sinking, and combat-incapable whilst the Kormoran remained combat-capable. Eventually, the Kormoran was abandoned as well - but she'd successfully decoyed and destroyed a much larger and more capable vessel.

When I said "direct, all-out confrontation" I was trying to imply that decoying didn't work (or wasn't a factor). Kormoran was only so successful because it fooled the enemy into getting too close and hit all the critical points too fast... yet was crippled itself from only a few half hazard shots from the Sydney (which proves my point).

The current "battle haulers" can more or less perform exactly the way Q-ships did. What I'm seeing here though are unreasonable expectations on what Q-ships could do... that a Q-ship can take on a cruiser pound for pound... when this just was simply not the case.

How did you Veterans start?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#22 - 2014-01-25 19:24:36 UTC
Senarian Tyme wrote:

Don't introduce a new pirate ship, but introdude a pirate rig which is limited to industrial ship hull types, and uses enough calibration points that only one can be fit. (after modification ship would have about 175 calibration and 2 rigs slots available.)

This rig would be more akin to a single use subsystem as it would do extensive overhauls to the hull nerfing cargo, adding PG, CPU, speed, agility and even fitting slots of various types (depending on which pirate rig type was utilized.)

The rigging itself could cost about the same as a standard Pirate cruiser.

This would result in the ship showing up as a basic transport yet, since the core hull is still the same. A tactical scanner would be required to identify the true nature of the ship. The modified ship would also not show up on the market but would natrually still be available on contracts.


This is the best solution to make more viable Q-Ships.

With that said, a lot of Eve consists in knowing what targets you can take in your ship and what situations you are going to get WTFBBQed. This situation is pretty well balanced right now. If I see an industrial on D-scan, I can attempt to engage it. I know there is the possibility that it is a Battle Nereus and he has a gang waiting next door or a cyno fitted. I take that risk when I go for the kill. Right now, most industrial ships are not fit for battle because they are not perceived to be that good. If every industrial could actually be a combat fit cruiser, then the odds of someone engaging are much lower.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

BogWopit
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#23 - 2014-01-26 11:10:05 UTC
Tech 3 industrials :) same basic hulls but can take the existing racial t3 subs, altering their ability / defence /offence. Kills quite a few birds that one. You get nullified transport for the 'we want nullified blockade runner' crew. You get an unknown quantity of a target which answers this post. And I'm sure there a butt load of other scenarios that subsystem ready indy's can be useful with.

B.
Orin Auscent
The Fifth Imperium
#24 - 2014-02-02 03:10:45 UTC
What might work better would be if you could convert some of the cargo space into drone bays and the like. it would allow you to deploy a force capable of giving you an edge.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#25 - 2014-02-02 05:27:31 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Its called fitting slots. Lots of non-combat ships have them. Battle orca, battle rorqual, battle industrial, battle hulk, these concepts have existed and seen occasional use for years.

That's all well and good, but when you see a ship currently, you automatically know it has predictable limits.

These ship's designs have some flexibility, but ultimately they are pigeon holed quite easily.

To be fair... Q-ships had the same problem. They were originally "trade" ships and even with major modifications they could never match a real combat ship in a direct, all-out confrontation.

Not always true... The German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran went toe-to-toe with the HMAS Sydney, and came off slightly the better. Of course, in this context that means that the Kormoran was left burning and crippled, but she's driven the Sydney to retire; burning, sinking, and combat-incapable whilst the Kormoran remained combat-capable. Eventually, the Kormoran was abandoned as well - but she'd successfully decoyed and destroyed a much larger and more capable vessel.

When I said "direct, all-out confrontation" I was trying to imply that decoying didn't work (or wasn't a factor). Kormoran was only so successful because it fooled the enemy into getting too close and hit all the critical points too fast... yet was crippled itself from only a few half hazard shots from the Sydney (which proves my point).

The current "battle haulers" can more or less perform exactly the way Q-ships did. What I'm seeing here though are unreasonable expectations on what Q-ships could do... that a Q-ship can take on a cruiser pound for pound... when this just was simply not the case.


I don't think people are wanting to see badgers taking out cruisers left and right. Just for them to be faster and slightly stronger for the loss of storage capability, adn the ability to surpise people.

Also since Eve doesnt model "critical points" that a sneaky can hit. The argument that existing transports are "like" real Qships is laughable. A real Qship could possibly have sank a battleship in a single hit with a good lucky torpedo strike, or more likely left the BS crippled for allied aircraft or ships to finish off. In Eve, even fully battlefit transports can only kill especially stupid frigate pilots.

The goal of what this guy wants as I can tell is frigate dps, below cruiser tank and speed. For the loss of cargo. The guns wouldn't get any bonuses because transport ships just have cargo bonuses. No bonus tank, no bonus speed. It would get a couple extra guns (maybe missiles) when the rig is attached and converts the ship. And a bit more tank. But have storage matching a cruiser (maybe slightly better). Stupid unprepared frigates and cruisers could attack it, and possibly be beaten off depending on how overconfident they were. Thing would still get eaten by anyone how knew what they were doing, or brought more than 1 person.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-02-02 12:13:18 UTC
Batlleships had multiple defenses against torpedoes, a Q-ship would never have been able to sink one. If I remember correctly they were a WWI idea to counter submarines (which would save torpedoes by surfacing and shooting 'defenceless' merchantmen) and also to act against other unarmed merchantmen. They were never intended and could never stand against a combat vessel in a toe-to-toe fight.

In game terms a Q-Ship would need rigs or some such that would remove cargo space in place of extra guns...the structural integrity of the Q-Ship wouldn't really be any better though as the construction of a hauler wouldn't lend itself to such. A few of them together would be able to take down much larger vessels if they got the first few hits in maybe...but then existing haulers fitted for combat can do so already...

A Q-Ship catching an attacker in scram and web to dictate range could be interesting though.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#27 - 2014-02-02 18:13:20 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
They were never intended and could never stand against a combat vessel in a toe-to-toe fight.


As was pointed out earlier, there were instances where they did in fact, stand toe to toe against a combat ship and win.



I do liek the idea of an escort class ship that looks like another ship type. Maybe have the module be passive, but has to have a bpc loaded in it to simulate a certain class of ship.
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#28 - 2014-02-02 18:30:37 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Batlleships had multiple defenses against torpedoes, a Q-ship would never have been able to sink one. If I remember correctly they were a WWI idea to counter submarines (which would save torpedoes by surfacing and shooting 'defenceless' merchantmen) and also to act against other unarmed merchantmen. They were never intended and could never stand against a combat vessel in a toe-to-toe fight.

In game terms a Q-Ship would need rigs or some such that would remove cargo space in place of extra guns...the structural integrity of the Q-Ship wouldn't really be any better though as the construction of a hauler wouldn't lend itself to such. A few of them together would be able to take down much larger vessels if they got the first few hits in maybe...but then existing haulers fitted for combat can do so already...

A Q-Ship catching an attacker in scram and web to dictate range could be interesting though.


Battleships did have armor bulges below teh surface to detonate torpedoes away from the primary armor plating, and they worked quite well, but not perfectly. The Indianapolis is a pretty good example, taken down with only 2 torpedoes. To defeat the armor bulges you have to remember many switched to magnetically triggered torps that would detonate under the target ship rather tan against the side.

And no they were never intended to stand against dedicated combat ships. They were used to add AA fire to convoys (kill frigs/drones), threaten surface dwelling subs (cloakies). And in the case of a specific few, they were used as unassuming looking transports used to attack enemy transports and the like.
Mistress Rose
Defensores Fidei
#29 - 2014-02-03 04:07:53 UTC
Really like this idea....have always been fascinated with the German commerce raiders. A very lively discussion and great ideas all around.

I liberally peppered this thread with "likes"

/mr
Orin Auscent
The Fifth Imperium
#30 - 2014-02-04 08:10:07 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Batlleships had multiple defenses against torpedoes, a Q-ship would never have been able to sink one. If I remember correctly they were a WWI idea to counter submarines (which would save torpedoes by surfacing and shooting 'defenceless' merchantmen) and also to act against other unarmed merchantmen. They were never intended and could never stand against a combat vessel in a toe-to-toe fight.

In game terms a Q-Ship would need rigs or some such that would remove cargo space in place of extra guns...the structural integrity of the Q-Ship wouldn't really be any better though as the construction of a hauler wouldn't lend itself to such. A few of them together would be able to take down much larger vessels if they got the first few hits in maybe...but then existing haulers fitted for combat can do so already...

A Q-Ship catching an attacker in scram and web to dictate range could be interesting though.


that would be interesting. being able to dictate the terms of an engagement would be a great advantage.

also a Q-ship in eve would have to be designed completely different from Q-ships in real life. in eve they would have to be versatile and adaptable to be able to stand a chance against raiders.

as for armor and being able to stand up to combat ships in a straight up fight. no that would not be what you would have them set out to do. unless of course they were operating in consort with other ships, either combat vessels or converted transports. the way they would have to be set up would be a large increase in firepower to stand up for themselves and a large tank to be able to hold for a small amount of time. it would not be for long engagements instead it would be about delivering the largest punch in the shortest amount of time and hoping to either destroy the attacker outright or to cripple him long enough for reinforcements to warp in to destroy him.
Trii Seo
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2014-02-04 10:13:44 UTC
Q-Ship in 3 easy steps!

Step 1: Get an industrial. Tayra/Bestower are actually good for this!
Step 2: FIT! Grab a Cynosural Field Generator I, fit as much as tank as you can. Top up with a web and a point!
Step 3: Get some friends with either a blops or a titan.

All done! You have your genuine Q-Ship! Let's see the faces of those pirates when they get waaaay more than they bargained for ;)

Proud pilot of the Imperium

Arek'Jaalan: Heliograph
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-02-04 10:19:02 UTC
In Eve terms a sneaky Q-Ship (supported by combat vessels) could be one with web, scram, as many neuts as it has turrets and as much armour tank as it'll take...
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2014-02-16 01:39:56 UTC
I think we should use the available 'INVENTION' system and have the result show up on the overveiw as the ship it was originally, but ALWAYS 'de-convert' back to that original if it is ever put on the market for sell.

Use the invention system for converting mining vessels, industrials, and freighters; but NOT command industrials or jump freighters

The large cargo/ore holds of these ships could be converted to extra reactor (more energy) , stronger fittings (more slots fitting the faction's particular style), larger drone bays with more bandwidth (fighter bays for the freighters), and/or enhanced shields.

They should NOT effect armor or structure, since the conversions are avoiding any physical changes which may alter the ship's appearance or movement (would be a 'dead give-away' to see a super-tanker using hydro-foils that is wasn't your normal hauler). Thus, it wouldn't be a completely battle-worthy vessel.

With mining vessels, the high slots would still be capable of using mining lasers to fill the greatly-reduced ore holds (for the purpose of convincing would-be attackers the target is actually a mining vessel), but this would block the Q-ship from using that particular high slot for a weapon.

Note Q-ships should NEVER be capable of taking on a dedicated warship of the same size without a surprise factor; but should be able to hold its own or seriously effect a smaller warship, especially when it surprises the opponent.

For this purpose, I think the 'Rapid Fire' missile launcher/direct-firing weapon would be particularly fitting weapon for use on a Q-ship.

Maybe each faction should include bonuses for their prefered style on the Q-ships converted fron their industrials and freighters
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#34 - 2014-02-16 02:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Don't forget Merchant Raiders. Like the idea, though. +1

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2014-02-21 03:54:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aalysia Valkeiper
I just thought of another aspect by which a raider/ganker could identify a q-ship... the pilot's history.

If Q-ships were to be enacted (in any form), gankers would quickly learn to leave 'helpless' industrials and mining ships with experianced pilots alone.

The ganker would see the 'target' ship on his overveiw. If he suspected the ship was a Q-ship, he could call up the pilot's history.

Seeing a Venture or mining barge being pilotted by a character with 7 years and numerous wars in his file is likely to convince the ganker to leave that 'target' alone or get help. Neither action is likely to help the 'target' if it is an actual Q-ship.

The time taken to check the pilot's history could be a great help to an actual miner or industrial... making the ganker's challenge that much greater.

I suggest CCP enact a protocol which enables a player to hide his character's history, his name, and/or even his photo. How to activate this precaution should be included into the tutorials and the importance of the action stressed to new players.
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2014-02-22 01:12:19 UTC
as an alternative, CCP could enact a method of masking the pilot of a ship on the overveiw, the screen, the target display, or any other display of the ship. This would mean the pilot would show in 'local chat', but would not be attributed to any particular ship.


Of course, this would be the choice of the pilot flying the ship, not the person trying to target it.

I imagine seeing a seven year veteran character is in system (but hiding which ship he/she is flying) could make many a ganker hesitate to attack a mining barge whom they can't ID the pilot... if Q-ships were available.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#37 - 2014-02-22 02:19:02 UTC
Gentlement. I give you:

[Procurer, Bait]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II

Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Warp Scrambler II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Strip Miner I

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5

60k EHP, 122 DPS, 2.8s lock time on a Taranis, dual web and 42.8 passive tank! All this can be yours for a mere 20 million ISK!

Also, it can mine*.

*-for deception purposes only, of course.

Overhaul Dscan!
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2014-02-22 03:36:18 UTC
I must ask (since I don't know so much about the Procurer), is that excellent example as one can fit a procurer now?

I note the ship does very well as a tank (the procurer's main differance from the other miners), but it's ONLY offensive ability is the five drones.

The main purpose of this discussion is to produce a Q-ship which has the ability to turn the tables on a frigate or destroyer raider or ganker, should the Q-ship get surprise.

To do its duty, the Q-ship needs to be indistinquishable from the miner or industrial it is based on (which you fit does wonderfully), it needs to have a good tank (again, very well done by your fit), and it needs a strong 'first strike'.

Five light drones (even type II Hobgoblins) does not fullfill that high 'Alpha'.

Q-ships don't need good mobility or agility (and won't get such unless it's based on a quick miner or industrial), but they do need some hefty firepower as a first strike.

They do not need to sustain that firepower, which is why the 'rapid-fire' weapons with long reloads are almost ready-made for the purpose.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#39 - 2014-02-22 04:07:24 UTC
I see what you're looking for, I was just providing the best currently existing option for it.

The key is the dual webs, which should keep any most any frigate in range long enough for the drones to work. A small neut would be mega helpful in this by disabling the target's afterbruner, if you're willing to give up some of your camouflage. The sheer shock of a miner fighting will give you some time as well, as they probably won't notice they have a fight on their hands until they have significant damage already. There's room for variation in the fit, but the basic idea will be the same.

A master of ambush combat it's not- but it makes a great lure for a gang and can ruin most solo frigates' day.

Overhaul Dscan!
Aalysia Valkeiper
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#40 - 2014-02-23 00:38:33 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
I see what you're looking for, I was just providing the best currently existing option for it.

A master of ambush combat it's not- but it makes a great lure for a gang and can ruin most solo frigates' day.



I admit I'm not very experianced, but most of the gankers I've seen are using destroyers, not frigates. I've seen catalysts, coercers, and thrashers, mostly, but I don't remember seeing any frigates.

Your fit would probably do wonderful for immobilizing a ganker in a catalyst or coercer long enough for team mates to warp in and handle it; but that is not the point of our discussion.

According to our discussion, a Q-ship needs to be able to handle the frigate or destroyer ganker ALONE after baiting him into range.

When I say 'handle', I mean make the ganker hesitate to attack another industrial or miner. After all, we're talking about players with the mentality of finding and ganking targets that have no chance of fighting or escaping... not exactly a mature mentality, there.