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Mining can be very profitable.

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Victor Andall
#41 - 2014-02-19 07:34:08 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Victor Andall wrote:
I'd love to see all the pvp'ers and whatnot take extended breaks from ganking and gatecamping so they can mine for a new Dramiel because no one does it full time for them.


Not all pvpers gank or gate camp (but there's no problem with either of those things either).

I don't personally have anything against mining or miners and if that was all it was, movements like the Code wouldn't exist.

The act of mining or being a miner in itself isn't a problem. However, it's the style of play that people choose when they want to be AFK, when they think they should be able to just play alone and without interaction with others, that bots are used for to generate ISK, etc.

It's not the act of mining, it's just that mining as a profession attracts the wrong styles of play (wrong here meaning - bots, AFK play and expecting to be able to play without interacting with anyone else at all - they are wrong ways to play and/or wrong expectations, even in a sandpit).


I was just listing the most common types of PVP'er that antagonizes miners.

While I'm against any type of AFK play, I disagree on solo play being less legitimate than group play. Because it does come with its drawbacks. Unassisted mining will always yield less profit, just like turning a profit from solo PVE requires more time, etc.

I was refering to a particular incident in my post. I remember a new player, green as grass, coming to the forums and telling us about his first hours of experience with the game, about wanting to pursue mining as a career because he felt it was the exact amount of stress he was willing to put up with (he didn't know about the dark side of mining, I bet) and that he wanted to get into industry further down along the line. No mention about liking it because he could be away from his PC or anything like that.

Literally the first reply was that he should cancel his subscription like everyone else playing EVE wrong. So I'm feeling that even outside of botting and afk play there is a toxic attitude towards miners and mining as a profession.

I just undocked for the first time and someone challenged me to a duel. Wat do?

19.08.2014 - Dinsdale gets slammed by CCP Falcon. Never forget.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-02-19 08:44:58 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Buncha wanabe Scientologists.
Ignore them. I'm not code compliant either... there's no need. I can only wish them luck with ganking my mining fleet..... xD

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2014-02-19 08:49:49 UTC
Victor Andall wrote:
So I'm feeling that even outside of botting and afk play there is a toxic attitude towards miners and mining as a profession.

Rightfully so. We can only wish that some day mining as a 'profession' gets either changed or abolished completely, as it's killing the game with every new player who wrongly gets told that it's a good way of making money and playing the game.

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#44 - 2014-02-19 09:00:09 UTC
Victor Andall wrote:
Literally the first reply was that he should cancel his subscription like everyone else playing EVE wrong. So I'm feeling that even outside of botting and afk play there is a toxic attitude towards miners and mining as a profession.


I'm not going into why people feel the need for such an attitude towards another group. Already did that in another post. Keep in mind that you're in GD and people who like mining will not be posting. You will not get a proper view of the EVE player's attitude towards mining based on this forum.

I mine. Not as much as I shoot at peeps, but over the years I managed to build several Orca's and freighters. Getting the high-end stuff out of WH and nullrenter space was a bit time-consuming, but very doable. Buying the ships would have been cheaper and faster. But if my life was about efficiency, I would not be playing a videogame.

First time somebody wanted me to pay for a miningpermit I agreed. I distracted the money from the POS-permit they were due that month. So this time they only owned me 1,48 bill. They didn't pay. Which meant they provided me and other EVE players with content and something to do for 2 evenings.

Do whatever you want man! What do you think these "anti-miners" are doing?
Salvos Rhoska
#45 - 2014-02-19 10:37:40 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


But hey, it's on the internet so we get used to it because we can't stop it anyway even if we tried.


Nor should we even attempt to stop it.

This because just the same as someone can talk about how they like something and why, other people can also talk about how they dont like that same thing and why.

I dont understand people who try to to suppress people with a negative opinion, on the false premise that they are somehow "repressing" the other person who likes it. Not only is it hypocritical, its actually these people who are repressing opinions.

Just cos you like something and say so, doesnt preclude other people from not liking it and saying so. Get what I mean?
Its a kind of social fasiscm increasingly prevalent online, and pretty immoral.

I dont like mining. Especially solo afk mining. I think its a silly way to play the game.
That doesnt mean I dont like the PEOPLE that do so, just their choice of activity.
Thats a very important distinction, but people nonetheless take it personally as if I was somehow, with my opinion, to which I am entitled, repressing them personally, when I am infact not.

One frequent (incomprehensible to me) reply, is "you should be grateful to miners for doing what they do, since they provide the materials for the ingame economy".

What? Seriously? I should be grateful to people who stare at rocks in their game time? Implying somehow they are martyrs and sacrificing their game time in this tedious task? I should be grateful to a person who means nothing to me, is a complete stranger to me, whos activities profit me in no way at all, and whom makes choices that I personally do not find appealling?

Mine all you want. Its your gametime, you do with it what you want. But same as in everything else in life, online or off, that doesnt make you somehow special or exempt from the critique or opinions of other people.

That is what people need to learn to "deal with". Other peoples negative opinions are not something to be censored, or which are deliterious to online existence. They are conducive to it, and stem from the same root of relative freedom of choice and expression,nas does your own choice to mine, and to say that you like to.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#46 - 2014-02-19 10:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
Victor Andall wrote:
So hey, while we're sort of on the topic, could someone shed some light on a topic for me?

I get the disdain for mining. I really do. I did it during the tutorials and found it to be absolutely soul crushing. But it works for some so whatever.

What I don't get is the general disdain for miners. I see a lot of posts among the lines of "you're playing EVE wrong" and whatnot and I don't understand the sentiment. Sure, it's a boring profession but it's literally what fuels every single other profession out there.

I'd love to see all the pvp'ers and whatnot take extended breaks from ganking and gatecamping so they can mine for a new Dramiel because no one does it full time for them.


It's not miners that draw the ire of the community. It is anyone who wants the game mechanics changed to benefit their game, and their game only.

There are posts from people all over these forums about the broken mechanics of:

Ganking
Gate camping
MTU
Drones
etc,

Rather than use the existing mechanics, too often people and especially, it seems, miners tend to whine and cry so much that it puts everyone else off. It would be one thing if they came here with a well reasoned concern and I suppose, at least from where they are sitting, they see it as a well reasoned concern. But most of us know how to leverage the existing mechanics to our advantage and do that as opposed to bitching on the forums about "broken" mechanics.

Furthermore, it is not often at all that a miner comes to the forum and defends the status quo. So what we generally get here are the ones who lobby for changes every day. The human mind tends to generalize after a while and while I am sure that not every miner sees a need for change in game mechanics, the majority of the ones that come here do.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Cheng Musana
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-02-19 11:07:30 UTC
You call mining in highsec "profitable"? Well not if you compare it with everything else in eve. The only thing to mine which gives decent ISK/H is gas.
Rhatar Khurin
Doomheim
#48 - 2014-02-19 11:10:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhatar Khurin
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I should be grateful to people who stare at rocks in their game time, they are martyrs and sacrificing their game time in this tedious task.


Thanks, that means a lot to me.
Le Ngoc Han
Aegis Eidolon
#49 - 2014-02-19 12:33:48 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I do hope you didn't post that with your main.



So come gank me. I'm mining in my second retriever ever, and I gave the first one away. I could use some excitement out in this belt x.,x

A guy in a destroyer was flying about trying to get me to take a can set right in front of me. I wish I had my procurer set up, as I was going to see if I could kill a destroyer with a fit barge. Problem is I didn't have a procurer, so I fit a venture but he was gone by then.


If you mine 24 hours a day (23.5 actually) you will not need to be ganked. You will be banned by CCP.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#50 - 2014-02-19 14:21:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
Hal Morsh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I do hope you didn't post that with your main.



So come gank me. I'm mining in my second retriever ever, and I gave the first one away. I could use some excitement out in this belt x.,x

A guy in a destroyer was flying about trying to get me to take a can set right in front of me. I wish I had my procurer set up, as I was going to see if I could kill a destroyer with a fit barge. Problem is I didn't have a procurer, so I fit a venture but he was gone by then.


as a miner its generally a bad idea to attack people who want to be attacked.

Relevant example of bad decision making below (representing a single engagement where the miners decided to fight back):

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=21784533

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#51 - 2014-02-19 14:37:56 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
I haven't really seen any recent threads so I decided to point this out. I also needed to occupy myself while mining, and since I was going to do this anyways I figured the forums should know for anyone who hasn't thought about it.

Mining yield is pretty good if you think about it.

Just in my retriever with "some" skills I can get a little over 3k M3 in ore every 3 minutes, now while people can definately make over 500k isk per cycle I'm just going to use that as a base number here and do the math for you.

(My math is probably very inefficient but I know it's correct)

500,000 / 3 = 166,666 This is to bring the number down to per minute.
166,666 X 60 = 9,999,960 So I pretty much make 10 mill an hour without boosts or maxed skills.
10,000,000 X 24 = 240,000,000 A day if you mined the full 24 hours. I rounded to 10 mill.

What are plex's worth now, 650 mill? So that would be 65 hours total of mining To earn one plex. So around 2 and a half days lets say as I don't have max skills to compare to.

30 days in a month divided by 2.5 = 12 plex's in total per month. So how much are these people multiboxing and botting making? It's got to be huge, but who is ever on the full 24 hours. Let alone with down times. So lets say 10 plex's for the hell of it.

I saw a guy with 20 accounts. So that is 100 plexes or 65 billion a month with my skills if I had 20 exact clones of my account botting. Or 3.25 billion for one person Quite high indeed, and even in realistic amounts of time it's still easily achievable to plex the accounts and profit, in turn driving up the prices even more due to even higher demand. You are only limited by the amount of ores available really. Of course this wouldn't be an issue if it weren't for bots. Although the only one true bot I met in game has been robbed of his ore many times and had a few ships destroyed, so there is a way of course to combat them and profit meanwhile..


I know that people do use mining as a semi afk activity like I do, to do other things while still earning some isk in game for when they can actually pay attention. It also helps the corp in my case.


Hi-sec mining is pretty horrible ISK/hr. You can make several times as much doing level 4 missions.

Hi-sec mining for PLEX isn't worth it unless you live in Botswana or something. 60 hours to make $15 is 25c per hour.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#52 - 2014-02-19 15:07:01 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
I know that people do use mining as a semi afk activity like I do, to do other things while still earning some isk in game for when they can actually pay attention. It also helps the corp in my case.


Don't confusing "very profitable" with "worth doing." Obviously there are some cases where, for a given player and that player's circumstances and desires, mining can be a worthwhile activity. However, to call it "very profitable" is bordering on the absurd.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Eram Fidard
Doomheim
#53 - 2014-02-19 16:35:33 UTC
Miners are capable of math?

I thought the very fact that they engage in mining proved the exact opposite? Or at least that they don't value their time at all.

Poster is not to be held responsible for damages to keyboards and/or noses caused by hot beverages.
Rhatar Khurin
Doomheim
#54 - 2014-02-19 16:50:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhatar Khurin
Mackinaw holds 35000 m3 ore

It takes 120 seconds (with Orca) to mine 4280 m3 ore, that's 981.3 seconds to fill the Mackinaw.

That's 3.66 filled holds an hour. At say 5.5 million a full hold (about average) that is 20,130,000 an hour.

That's fairly decent money imo. Sure doing level 4's often nets you more cash (mainly from lucky loot drops or missions with tons of high bounties) but it's not to be sneezed at.

EDIT:
Hulk + Orca = 24 mill p/h (with come gank me fit)
2 x Mackinaw (no orca) 28 mill p/h
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#55 - 2014-02-19 17:06:17 UTC
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I do hope you didn't post that with your main.



So come gank me. I'm mining in my second retriever ever, and I gave the first one away. I could use some excitement out in this belt x.,x

A guy in a destroyer was flying about trying to get me to take a can set right in front of me. I wish I had my procurer set up, as I was going to see if I could kill a destroyer with a fit barge. Problem is I didn't have a procurer, so I fit a venture but he was gone by then.


as a miner its generally a bad idea to attack people who want to be attacked.

Relevant example of bad decision making below (representing a single engagement where the miners decided to fight back):

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=21784533



I always make horrible decisions to fight back. Even in a megathron when I don't have large guns around. That ended pretty badly. I intended to be bait for that one but there was no backup around :(

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Silent Arthie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2014-02-21 15:29:11 UTC
I'm a poor student, so I am one of those high sec miners who mindlessly mines away Plex each month. It's easy for me to AFK mine while I finish school work or study, since it's essentially passive income for me. Coming to this game from WoW, I told myself that there would be no way I'd end up mining for more than 5 minutes because I found gathering professions in WoW to be God-awful boring. To be honest, I don't mind being a mining only person right now. I'm just getting my skills up enough so I can comfortably do level 4 missions and then I'll likely stop mining. Mining really isn't the most boring thing you can possibly do. I mean, people sit there and level skills up from 1 to 99 in Runescape, and that is DEFINITIELY

Mining isn't the worst money if you can get into a dedicated mining spot. I have a mission that is in a GIGANTIC asteroid field. I only mine about 25 million ISK worth there a day, but I'm assuming there's at least 100-200m ISK worth in that field.
Rhatar Khurin
Doomheim
#57 - 2014-02-21 15:57:38 UTC
Silent Arthie wrote:

Mining isn't the worst money if you can get into a dedicated mining spot. I have a mission that is in a GIGANTIC asteroid field. I only mine about 25 million ISK worth there a day, but I'm assuming there's at least 100-200m ISK worth in that field.


Most decent (high sec) asteroid belts hold about 120 mill worth of ore. but mining missions is a fairly safe idea.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#58 - 2014-02-21 19:00:37 UTC
Meh. Honestly, mining is excellent isk/EFFORT. Yeah it's poor in terms of isk/hour, but during that hour I might only invest 5 minutes of clicking and glancing at my screeen. The other 55 minutes can be spent watching Youtube or reading a book.

If I make 20m isk per hour, in reality I make 240m per hour of effort (20m isk * 60min / 5min of clicking).

240m isk per hour of effort is an excellent ratio. Feel sorry for the lvl 4 scrub who only makes 60m per hour of effort (retargeting rats, looting, salvaging, changing ammo etc).
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-02-21 19:51:38 UTC
"When He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, "Come." I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice from among the four living beings say, "A loaf of wheat bread or three loaves of barley will cost a day's pay. And don't waste the olive oil and wine."

Revelation 6:5-6

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Dave Stark
#60 - 2014-02-21 19:54:32 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
I haven't really seen any recent threads so I decided to point this out. I also needed to occupy myself while mining, and since I was going to do this anyways I figured the forums should know for anyone who hasn't thought about it.

Mining yield is pretty good if you think about it.


i did more than think about it, i did the maths.

it isn't, you're objectively wrong.