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Balancing Feedback: New Tech2 modules

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Lek Arthie
Doomheim
#181 - 2011-11-24 16:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lek Arthie
Quote:
The point being that when you get the T2 ganglink requirements, all you need is cybernetics 5 to get 50% more effectiveness from the mindlink; there is already more than enough incentive to train those skills.


You think there are many people that have trained all those skills? There are not. Even in alliances there aren't many people. Dont forget that those skills are not enough. Yes they might be enough for small gangs but small gangs is not EVE's only gameplay. To be able to provide bonuses for a large fleet you need wing command/fleet command to train also. It's not so easy as you think. Still if your point is that T2 links have low skilll reqs, personally im fine if they add more skill reqs, like warefare specialist skill etc.

"Mandatory" is a personal opinion. The difference between the T1 and T2 is NOT very big. T1 links were already mandatory if you ask me. And even now any self-respecting fleet/gang should have one, regardless of size.
You just realized that links got better and you aare scared. Point is that T1 also give an advantage. Because CCP decided to put T2 links now and not from the start doesn't mean that T2 links are easy to train because link pilots already have the skills. Besides T2 links follow the same skill reqs as most T2 modules. They require level 5 on the skills of the T1 module.
T2 link should more likely give resistances of an officer module not a petty CN.....

Tbh im pretty sure you are here because some people ask for link boost and you just want to troll them...


Give more love to T2 links.
Sigras
Conglomo
#182 - 2011-11-24 21:00:53 UTC
they're 25% better . . . what more do you want? As a person who did train all of the leadership skills to 5 I think this T2 bonus is more than enough.
Crucis Cassiopeiae
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#183 - 2011-11-24 21:12:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Crucis Cassiopeiae
Sigras wrote:
they're 25% better . . . what more do you want? As a person who did train all of the leadership skills to 5 I think this T2 bonus is more than enough.


That with base bonus of 2% for T1, upgrade on T2 (2,5% bonus) is 14% boost...
That with base bonus of 3% for T1, upgrade on T2 (3,5% bonus) is around 10% (didn't calculate this accurate) boost...
That with base bonus of 4,5% for T1, upgrade on T2 (5% bonus) is 4% boost...


Math for the last case:

bornaa wrote:
if someone dont believe me
Here is math in 3 decimals which corresponds to the actual in game values:

Maximum Skills, Orca
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization (2%)
T1 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (4.5%)
T2 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (5%)


with T1 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.045 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.5821875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.5821875) = 23.732 km



with T2 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.646875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.646875) = 24.703 km

Vote Issler Dainze for CSM7! http://community.eveonline.com/council/voting/Vote.asp?c=470 
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2011-11-25 00:43:59 UTC
Sigras wrote:
they're 25% better . . . what more do you want? As a person who did train all of the leadership skills to 5 I think this T2 bonus is more than enough.


What I said in fewer words.
Sigras
Conglomo
#185 - 2011-11-25 01:38:00 UTC
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Sigras wrote:
they're 25% better . . . what more do you want? As a person who did train all of the leadership skills to 5 I think this T2 bonus is more than enough.


That with base bonus of 2% for T1, upgrade on T2 (2,5% bonus) is 14% boost...
That with base bonus of 3% for T1, upgrade on T2 (3,5% bonus) is around 10% (didn't calculate this accurate) boost...
That with base bonus of 4,5% for T1, upgrade on T2 (5% bonus) is 4% boost...


Math for the last case:

bornaa wrote:
if someone dont believe me
Here is math in 3 decimals which corresponds to the actual in game values:

Maximum Skills, Orca
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization (2%)
T1 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (4.5%)
T2 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (5%)


with T1 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.045 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.5821875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.5821875) = 23.732 km



with T2 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.646875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.646875) = 24.703 km


You do realize that youre talking about applied effect vs statistic effect?
You do realize that the T2 armor hardener only gets a 10% resist bonus over its T1 variant?

This is why I dislike EFT, because people look at the numbers and not the actual effects in game . . .
Allow me to try some math

Armor EM Hardener I - (50%)
Armor EM Hardener II - (55%)

with a T1 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 50% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 25%
Resist net effect = 75%

with a T2 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 55% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 27.5%
Resist net effect = 77.5%

So a T2 Armor EM Hardener only provides a 2.5% applied effect more than the T1 yet for some reason everyone uses T2 . . . I wonder why that is . . .
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#186 - 2011-11-25 05:17:44 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Sigras wrote:
they're 25% better . . . what more do you want? As a person who did train all of the leadership skills to 5 I think this T2 bonus is more than enough.


That with base bonus of 2% for T1, upgrade on T2 (2,5% bonus) is 14% boost...
That with base bonus of 3% for T1, upgrade on T2 (3,5% bonus) is around 10% (didn't calculate this accurate) boost...
That with base bonus of 4,5% for T1, upgrade on T2 (5% bonus) is 4% boost...


Math for the last case:

bornaa wrote:
if someone dont believe me
Here is math in 3 decimals which corresponds to the actual in game values:

Maximum Skills, Orca
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization (2%)
T1 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (4.5%)
T2 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (5%)


with T1 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.045 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.5821875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.5821875) = 23.732 km



with T2 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.646875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.646875) = 24.703 km


You do realize that youre talking about applied effect vs statistic effect?
You do realize that the T2 armor hardener only gets a 10% resist bonus over its T1 variant?

This is why I dislike EFT, because people look at the numbers and not the actual effects in game . . .
Allow me to try some math

Armor EM Hardener I - (50%)
Armor EM Hardener II - (55%)

with a T1 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 50% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 25%
Resist net effect = 75%

with a T2 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 55% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 27.5%
Resist net effect = 77.5%

So a T2 Armor EM Hardener only provides a 2.5% applied effect more than the T1 yet for some reason everyone uses T2 . . . I wonder why that is . . .



Becouse Tech 2 armor hardner's are not that costly compard to say Faction that is normaly the same and to the price of Complex and Commander.

So it's a nice cheap piece of gear that do's alittle more then tech 1.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#187 - 2011-11-25 09:15:52 UTC
but if you start from 0% resistance and not from 50% you will get that 55% bonus...
only then that calculation you can compare with gang links.

i love when ppl using stacking penalty mechanic to prove something completely different...
Sigras
Conglomo
#188 - 2011-11-26 06:38:27 UTC
Elanor Vega wrote:
but if you start from 0% resistance and not from 50% you will get that 55% bonus...
only then that calculation you can compare with gang links.

i love when ppl using stacking penalty mechanic to prove something completely different...

ok, i admit that I was being a bit reductio ad absurdum but you understand my point.

People kill for 1-2% thats why people train skills like advanced weapon upgrades to level 5 . . . if you dont think its worth it, dont train for it.

Also, it wasnt technically the stacking penalty I was using to skew my numbers but rather the way resists work because a stacking penalty specifically applies to multiple modules effecting the same stat.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2011-11-26 07:16:20 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Elanor Vega wrote:
but if you start from 0% resistance and not from 50% you will get that 55% bonus...
only then that calculation you can compare with gang links.

i love when ppl using stacking penalty mechanic to prove something completely different...

ok, i admit that I was being a bit reductio ad absurdum but you understand my point.

People kill for 1-2% thats why people train skills like advanced weapon upgrades to level 5 . . . if you dont think its worth it, dont train for it.

Also, it wasnt technically the stacking penalty I was using to skew my numbers but rather the way resists work because a stacking penalty specifically applies to multiple modules effecting the same stat.


Exactly. I don't think there is an understanding on the nature of multiplicative numbers. Even if you were to start with 99% base EM resistance, you will still take 10% less damage with the T2 hardener vs. the meta4.
Aessaya
Independent treasure hunters
#190 - 2011-11-26 07:28:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aessaya
Sigras wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Sigras wrote:
they're 25% better . . . what more do you want? As a person who did train all of the leadership skills to 5 I think this T2 bonus is more than enough.


That with base bonus of 2% for T1, upgrade on T2 (2,5% bonus) is 14% boost...
That with base bonus of 3% for T1, upgrade on T2 (3,5% bonus) is around 10% (didn't calculate this accurate) boost...
That with base bonus of 4,5% for T1, upgrade on T2 (5% bonus) is 4% boost...


Math for the last case:

bornaa wrote:
if someone dont believe me
Here is math in 3 decimals which corresponds to the actual in game values:

Maximum Skills, Orca
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization (2%)
T1 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (4.5%)
T2 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (5%)


with T1 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.045 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.5821875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.5821875) = 23.732 km



with T2 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.646875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.646875) = 24.703 km


You do realize that youre talking about applied effect vs statistic effect?
You do realize that the T2 armor hardener only gets a 10% resist bonus over its T1 variant?

This is why I dislike EFT, because people look at the numbers and not the actual effects in game . . .
Allow me to try some math

Armor EM Hardener I - (50%)
Armor EM Hardener II - (55%)

with a T1 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 50% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 25%
Resist net effect = 75%

with a T2 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 55% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 27.5%
Resist net effect = 77.5%

So a T2 Armor EM Hardener only provides a 2.5% applied effect more than the T1 yet for some reason everyone uses T2 . . . I wonder why that is . . .


You, sir, fail at maths (at least, at EVE maths).
Yes, the net resistance in this case is 77.5% versus 75%, which is increase of 2.5 if you consider numeric values, however, resistance percentages do not work this way. You have to look at them as damage reduction, thus it's 22.5% damage versus 25%, which is (1-0.225/0.25)*100 = 0.1*100 = 10% (oh, suprise!).
The other thing is, if you apply a single resistance effect you will always get the same damage reduction in percentages, no matter what base resistance you had there. I will illustrate this by saying, that difference between 95% and 97.5% resistances is the same numeric value of 2.5, while this results in whopping 50% decrease in damage (from 5% to 2.5%).

I hope you understood what i was saying.

This also means that 25% increase in ganglink's base bonus will carry over to 25% increase of link's bonus after all skill, implant and hull bonuses (percentage bonuses are essentially multiplication, and the order in which you make the multiplication does not matter).

On the other hand, difference for t2 links vs t1 links is not 25% per se (well, it is 25% for those links that have 2% base).
We're looking at:
2 -> 2.5 = 2,5/2 = +25%
3 -> 3.5 = 3.5/3 = +16.6(6)%
4.5 -> 5 = 5/4.5 = +11.1(1)%

So, for the mining links in question the difference is: 0.646875 / 0.5821875 = 11.1(1)% (suprise?)

edit:
quick tip: when calculating percent difference we divide the new value by the old value, thus, comparing t2 module to t1 module we do (1 - [t2 mod eff.] / [t1 mod eff.]) * 100

Ah, you seek meaning? Then listen to the music, not the song.
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2011-11-26 08:35:35 UTC
Aessaya wrote:

You do realize that youre talking about applied effect vs statistic effect?
You do realize that the T2 armor hardener only gets a 10% resist bonus over its T1 variant?

This is why I dislike EFT, because people look at the numbers and not the actual effects in game . . .
Allow me to try some math

hmm do you rly expect from some high sec miners to use their brains? why are you so cruel to them?
they are the console kids of eve, they should not required to think as it hurts them
Sigras
Conglomo
#192 - 2011-11-26 09:31:09 UTC
Aessaya wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Sigras wrote:
they're 25% better . . . what more do you want? As a person who did train all of the leadership skills to 5 I think this T2 bonus is more than enough.


That with base bonus of 2% for T1, upgrade on T2 (2,5% bonus) is 14% boost...
That with base bonus of 3% for T1, upgrade on T2 (3,5% bonus) is around 10% (didn't calculate this accurate) boost...
That with base bonus of 4,5% for T1, upgrade on T2 (5% bonus) is 4% boost...


Math for the last case:

bornaa wrote:
if someone dont believe me
Here is math in 3 decimals which corresponds to the actual in game values:

Maximum Skills, Orca
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization (2%)
T1 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (4.5%)
T2 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (5%)


with T1 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.045 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.5821875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.5821875) = 23.732 km



with T2 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.646875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.646875) = 24.703 km


You do realize that youre talking about applied effect vs statistic effect?
You do realize that the T2 armor hardener only gets a 10% resist bonus over its T1 variant?

This is why I dislike EFT, because people look at the numbers and not the actual effects in game . . .
Allow me to try some math

Armor EM Hardener I - (50%)
Armor EM Hardener II - (55%)

with a T1 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 50% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 25%
Resist net effect = 75%

with a T2 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 55% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 27.5%
Resist net effect = 77.5%

So a T2 Armor EM Hardener only provides a 2.5% applied effect more than the T1 yet for some reason everyone uses T2 . . . I wonder why that is . . .


You, sir, fail at maths (at least, at EVE maths).
Yes, the net resistance in this case is 77.5% versus 75%, which is increase of 2.5 if you consider numeric values, however, resistance percentages do not work this way. You have to look at them as damage reduction, thus it's 22.5% damage versus 25%, which is (1-0.225/0.25)*100 = 0.1*100 = 10% (oh, suprise!).
The other thing is, if you apply a single resistance effect you will always get the same damage reduction in percentages, no matter what base resistance you had there. I will illustrate this by saying, that difference between 95% and 97.5% resistances is the same numeric value of 2.5, while this results in whopping 50% decrease in damage (from 5% to 2.5%).

I hope you understood what i was saying.

This also means that 25% increase in ganglink's base bonus will carry over to 25% increase of link's bonus after all skill, implant and hull bonuses (percentage bonuses are essentially multiplication, and the order in which you make the multiplication does not matter).

On the other hand, difference for t2 links vs t1 links is not 25% per se (well, it is 25% for those links that have 2% base).
We're looking at:
2 -> 2.5 = 2,5/2 = +25%
3 -> 3.5 = 3.5/3 = +16.6(6)%
4.5 -> 5 = 5/4.5 = +11.1(1)%

So, for the mining links in question the difference is: 0.646875 / 0.5821875 = 11.1(1)% (suprise?)

edit:
quick tip: when calculating percent difference we divide the new value by the old value, thus, comparing t2 module to t1 module we do (1 - [t2 mod eff.] / [t1 mod eff.]) * 100

#1 the original argument was whether or not the T2 modules got enough of a boost above their T1 counterpart - to whit, youve proven my point perfectly
#2 my original argument was reductio ad absurdum as i previously stated . . . I even made it easy and linked it for you
Sigras
Conglomo
#193 - 2011-11-26 09:34:01 UTC
Aessaya wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Crucis Cassiopeiae wrote:
Sigras wrote:
they're 25% better . . . what more do you want? As a person who did train all of the leadership skills to 5 I think this T2 bonus is more than enough.


That with base bonus of 2% for T1, upgrade on T2 (2,5% bonus) is 14% boost...
That with base bonus of 3% for T1, upgrade on T2 (3,5% bonus) is around 10% (didn't calculate this accurate) boost...
That with base bonus of 4,5% for T1, upgrade on T2 (5% bonus) is 4% boost...


Math for the last case:

bornaa wrote:
if someone dont believe me
Here is math in 3 decimals which corresponds to the actual in game values:

Maximum Skills, Orca
Mining Foreman Link - Laser Optimization (2%)
T1 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (4.5%)
T2 Mining Foreman Link - Mining Laser Field Enhancement (5%)


with T1 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.045 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.5821875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.5821875) = 23.732 km



with T2 gang links:

Range Link Bonus = 0.05 * 5 * (1 + 5 * 0.10) * (1 + 5 * 0.03) * (1 + 0.50) = 0.646875

Maximum Laser Range = 15 km * (1 + 0.646875) = 24.703 km


You do realize that youre talking about applied effect vs statistic effect?
You do realize that the T2 armor hardener only gets a 10% resist bonus over its T1 variant?

This is why I dislike EFT, because people look at the numbers and not the actual effects in game . . .
Allow me to try some math

Armor EM Hardener I - (50%)
Armor EM Hardener II - (55%)

with a T1 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 50% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 25%
Resist net effect = 75%

with a T2 Hardener on an Omen
Base EM Resist = 50%
EM hole to be filled = 50% * 55% module bonus
Applied effect from the module = 27.5%
Resist net effect = 77.5%

So a T2 Armor EM Hardener only provides a 2.5% applied effect more than the T1 yet for some reason everyone uses T2 . . . I wonder why that is . . .


You, sir, fail at maths (at least, at EVE maths).
Yes, the net resistance in this case is 77.5% versus 75%, which is increase of 2.5 if you consider numeric values, however, resistance percentages do not work this way. You have to look at them as damage reduction, thus it's 22.5% damage versus 25%, which is (1-0.225/0.25)*100 = 0.1*100 = 10% (oh, suprise!).
The other thing is, if you apply a single resistance effect you will always get the same damage reduction in percentages, no matter what base resistance you had there. I will illustrate this by saying, that difference between 95% and 97.5% resistances is the same numeric value of 2.5, while this results in whopping 50% decrease in damage (from 5% to 2.5%).

I hope you understood what i was saying.

This also means that 25% increase in ganglink's base bonus will carry over to 25% increase of link's bonus after all skill, implant and hull bonuses (percentage bonuses are essentially multiplication, and the order in which you make the multiplication does not matter).

On the other hand, difference for t2 links vs t1 links is not 25% per se (well, it is 25% for those links that have 2% base).
We're looking at:
2 -> 2.5 = 2,5/2 = +25%
3 -> 3.5 = 3.5/3 = +16.6(6)%
4.5 -> 5 = 5/4.5 = +11.1(1)%

So, for the mining links in question the difference is: 0.646875 / 0.5821875 = 11.1(1)% (suprise?)

edit:
quick tip: when calculating percent difference we divide the new value by the old value, thus, comparing t2 module to t1 module we do (1 - [t2 mod eff.] / [t1 mod eff.]) * 100

#1. the original argument was whether or not the T2 mods got enough of a boost over their T1 counterparts . . . thank you for proving that the modules that got the least boost still got more of a boost than normal hardeners
#2 my argument was reductio ad absurdum. . . look it up some time cause the forums wont let me link it; its right on wikipedia, im sure you can find it.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#194 - 2011-11-28 00:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
Switch the gang percentage bonus of the T3 and the fleet command ship.

Don't allow gang links to be turned on while inside a POS shield.
Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
#195 - 2011-11-28 00:52:01 UTC
I support the *on-grid only* gang links lobby (and add that the modules should not be deactivating at warp in that case :D

-
mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#196 - 2011-11-29 00:05:12 UTC
Triage T2, why not remove the inability to deploy fighters?
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2011-11-30 09:31:24 UTC
I Support ongrid link and online while warp
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2011-11-30 16:49:28 UTC
i dont like on grid bonus idea at all. defenders should have the upper hand and what you propose takes some of that advantage away from them.

online while warp would be bad as well. you could appoint one guy in fleet to just sit there and warp from bookmark to bookmark. he could fit then fit a paper thin tank, all nanos in the lows, low friction nozzles in the rigs and 6+ command links just because it will never be caught.

removing the capability to become unscannable in a ECCM fit command or T3 was a good change but these will be unreasonable
Vanturien
Calmarr Connection
#199 - 2011-12-03 12:59:25 UTC
It seems the T2 Expanded Probe Launcher has the same attributes as the T1.
Shouldn't it have a shorter cycle time?
Sigras
Conglomo
#200 - 2011-12-04 03:22:21 UTC
it gets a +5% strength bonus . . .