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New Dev Blog: CSM Special Summit -- Meeting minutes are out

First post First post
#81 - 2011-09-10 12:18:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Whole minutes = Meh ... nothing new. Still a lot of hubris coming from CCP.
Nothing learned from history.

CSM CCP Minutes wrote:
CCP responded that it had received reports regarding overheating and was taking active measures to follow up on those, although no concrete cases have been discovered.

Now, if I was to interpret the above, it tells me that CCP either NEVER anticipate or DISMISSES graphics issues that results in an increased number of graphic card failures when coding for Incarna. Well, let me point you back to 2007 just after the Trinity expansion where the default interval (aka not V-sync limited) stresses and kills graphics cards, especially when in station spin view. This problem isn't new nor will it go away by making light the issue and blaming customers hardware for it. Your Incarna team have learned virtually nothing from history and nothing from the industry where similar cases had taken place in other games (the one I can remember on top of my head is Brad Wardell's Galactic Civilizations).

CSM CCP Minutes wrote:
A lot of preparation material was created for the summit: literature on purchase behavior, virtual goods practice and industry reports, independent studies on monetization of web/online games and services done explicitly for CCP, etc. Furthermore, information from other industry-leading companies was added to the pool.

I see this as a defensive statement, laying it on really thickly that a "lot of brains and research" went into justifying the decisions that lead to the debacle. Akin to stating that you've got folks with PhDs from MIT (no offense intended to the persons). Now the simple question here is, did you do any work or estimates on the possible reactions from EVE players? YES or NO? If YES, there's no need to tip-toe around this issue with long winded explanations. If NO, well there you go, lots of brains and research - zero applied wisdom.

CSM CCP Minutes wrote:
As it does not take the future of EVE lightly, CCP stressed that EVE has been, and will continue to be, one of the company's core projects. CCP has been working on EVE for a very long time and would never, either as individuals or as a company, intentionally try to hurt EVE. Even changes to EVE that can be considered controversial are only taken after very careful consideration of the possible consequences and effects they might have on the game and its playerbase.

Sorry, the above statement has been untrue for the last .. say 2 years (till present day). I'm specifically talking about non-Incarna related stuffs. A lot of players are tired and fairly sick of these basic routine assurances. Forum feedback? Apathy. Test server feedback? Apathy. Game discussions? Apathy. Talk something about EVE? Apathy. You're already bleeding and When or if it becomes a torrent, any decisions you make will be subject to massive pressures - which MAY lead to massive fundamental mistakes with quick fixes under time constraints. This may snowball into issues, either short-term or long term .... and everything rolls back into a self-destructive circle.
#82 - 2011-09-10 20:18:15 UTC
Ok, so we got this PR fluff... I want 10 minutes of my life back. While intresting as a "compromise", it hardly more informative than average devblog on the issue. Thing is, not only it simply states CCP opinion on issues community was upset about (hardly any debate goin on), this stuff is also few months late - speaking of improved communication... funny thing: every time CCP says they will make communication better, it only gets worse. Even this excuse for a minutes appeared because of recent events, I bet.

Would be better if CCP wrote devblogs and CSM wrote minutes than CCP PR department writing everything.... come to think of it, if "chairman" is to be belived at all, it would be much more entertaning to get two unedited versions of minutes (one from CCP, one from CSM) and compare those Roll


Every single character used in this post is a work of fiction. Any similarities with real-world alphabet, or - god forbid - language is purely unintnetional!

FadeIN Fr0St
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2011-09-11 01:14:53 UTC
Greygal wrote:
Reading these minutes, I feel like the initially released joint statement was far more detailed, on-point, relevant, expressive, informative, and, to be honest, entertaining to read Big smile The initial joint statement, while its overall tone was very matter-of-fact, demonstrated to me the extent that the CSM pushed on CCP; it also demonstrated a certain amount of chagrin and honest confusion on the part of CCP.

In other words, between all the low-key wordage of the initial statement, you found that an open and honest communication occurred, with some consensus and understanding reached.

These minutes are overworked, banal to say the least.

Yet at least, they are now released. They are not what I expected, but they are released. For that, I commend the CSM and CCP both.

Time to move on to the next soap opera!


"All hail Wang ... the little fella in Command. When 'trouble' starts to spread, I'm sure he will rise to the occasion."

Azahni Vah'nos (Best reply ever)

Tors shibari party
No Holes Barred
#84 - 2011-09-11 07:52:53 UTC  |  Edited by: TorTorden
The only thing CCP managed to do with the NeX is make sure ccp is mentioned in game design classes the world over on HOW NOT TO IMPLEMENT micro transactions.
In Bacon We Trust
#85 - 2011-09-11 10:25:11 UTC
Just more hubris and obfuscation, this is what the PR department and the inept talking piece that the CSM is can come up with in 3 months of back and forth and the only confirmation is the ideology of new business is in full effect. Any semblance of transparency or honesty is void when the only voice CCP speaks with is one that belongs to shills, hacks, and analyst who would sell their grandmothers ice if they lived in an igloo.

The advantage of a bad memory is that one can enjoy the same good things for the first time several times.

One will rarely err if extreme actions be ascribed to vanity, ordinary actions to habit, and mean actions to fear.

El 1974
Green Visstick High
#86 - 2011-09-11 11:52:04 UTC
Nobody ever even mentioned FiS? Nobody even suggested part of the reason people didn't like Incarna, was that it showed CCP no longer cared about FiS?

Or was that part censored out?
White Snake Inc.
#87 - 2011-09-11 12:29:48 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Nobody ever even mentioned FiS? Nobody even suggested part of the reason people didn't like Incarna, was that it showed CCP no longer cared about FiS?

Or was that part censored out?

Albertica Bludgers' Union
#88 - 2011-09-11 23:59:08 UTC
Trebor Daehdoow wrote:
Glad this is out of the way. On to the next--100% self-inflicted in the face of overwhelming evidence and reasons to not go there--crisis!

Fixed that for ya, mate.


colera deldios
#89 - 2011-09-12 00:22:42 UTC
"The CSM GENERALLY agreed that from a purely technical standpoint, Incarna had GENERALLY been a very
successful expansion"

I think it was a massive disaster, followed by another massive disaster.


El 1974
Green Visstick High
#90 - 2011-09-12 07:14:59 UTC
colera deldios wrote:
"The CSM GENERALLY agreed that from a purely technical standpoint, Incarna had GENERALLY been a very
successful expansion"

I think it was a massive disaster, followed by another massive disaster.


It took much longer to implement than planned. It created new bugs which they still havent been able to fix. It overheated people's computers.
From a purely technical standpoint it wasn't a pure failure, but to claim it was 'very successfull' is nonsense. These guys are (should be) pro. Updates are supposed to go smoothly. If the CSM agreed, we need a new CSM.
If the CSM 'generally' agreed, that leaves room for people who didn't. I'd like to know who that was...
Jaxon Grylls
Institute of Archaeology
#91 - 2011-09-12 09:36:42 UTC
Bel Amar wrote:
Those minutes didn't really seem to say anything we didn't already know, and no new specifics seem to have been clarified further... Given the rather banal nature, I'm left even more confused as to why it took so long and caused so much back and forth between the CSM & CCP...

It's because they are banal and do not say anything substantive that they took so long. It looks like the CSM (mirabile dictu) tried to stand their ground on this one, I hate to think what we would have been dished up if they had not. Still, as I said elsewhere. it's so long in the past that it's all pretty academic now anyway.
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#92 - 2011-09-12 11:50:56 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Nobody ever even mentioned FiS? Nobody even suggested part of the reason people didn't like Incarna, was that it showed CCP no longer cared about FiS?

Or was that part censored out?

Wasn't censored out, that just wasn't the scope of that particular meeting. Going on about the one (or few) issue like a raging maniac doesn't accomplish much, we have to approach each meeting independantly and address the issues pertaining to the subject at hand.

FiS resource allocation is something we discussed at length (and keep doing so) with CCP Zulu, among others, but if you're having a meeting about, say, the New Player Experience and tutorial, that's what you talk about during that meeting.

I don't like InCarna taking away resources from Eve, but if I'm talking about InCarna proper, I can talk about its qualities and flaws constructively. And when that's done, I can still go on and request that none of the things I said would be necessary to improve it get allocated because I think something else (FiS) is more important.

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7

Canadian Forces Corp
United 4 Nations
#93 - 2011-09-12 20:34:41 UTC
Would it be possible in future to get stuff like this (applies to QENs too) in a format that works in the browser? I suppose there's a good reason to use PDF, but if you're linking it from the in-game news, and it's a content type that can reasonably be presented in-game (for instance, not video), it should work in-game.
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
#94 - 2011-09-13 09:46:05 UTC
Forgive my ignorance but in my career, every meeting I have attended where minutes are taken; a list of action points are also taken.

Now I'm not saying neither CCP nor the CSM didn't take any actions following this meeting, but it would make sense in future to have a condensed list of actions to be undertaken in the minutes before the next planned CSM meeting. This way progress can actually be tracked and monitored.

From what I read, much of the same stuff is discussed each CSM and nothing actually comes of it because actions aren't assigned to people as a result.

The Snowman
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2011-09-13 13:04:11 UTC
The NeX store wont really make sense until full 'Walking in stations' is realized.

At the moment, you cant really display your vanity items and since the whole point of a vanity item is to show-off, with no other people to show-off too, the demand for the products is very low, which gives the impression that store is a failure.

If the store was released AFTER walking in stations, then it would make a lot more sense and this whole story would be completely different.

For years people have begged for WiS, thinking it will be the best thing ever... seems that people no longer feel that for some reason, but I for one, still very much look forward to it and recognize that the store and the CQ are just a very small part of the beginning.

Thanks CSM and CCP for their perseverance for all the drama coming from the community. o/
Rote Kapelle
#96 - 2011-09-17 10:45:58 UTC
My prediction is that walking in stations is not going to happen this year...or next since they can't even render a single character in a small room without graphic cards overheating...Thanks CCP for giving us vanity items that we will never be able to "show off" instead of working on things that matter to the community.

CCP should just change their mission statement to "We don’t give a ****"
Lan Trobair
#97 - 2011-09-18 03:07:50 UTC
Thank you CSM for your collective voice. I love that you are sacrificing your time and energy for us players and monetary contributors. Your efforts are appreciated and vindicated.

Thank you CCP for your extraordinary game and interesting goals to the future of the game, but most importantly that you were willing to stop and listen instead of plowing ahead where other companies wouldn't have blinked.

I look forward to updates and further enjoyment of the game.