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Tiericide - Blockade Runner and Deep Space Transport
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Meyr
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
OnlyFleets.
#21 - 2014-01-11 05:00:40 UTC
I am disposable wrote:
Meyr wrote:
I am disposable wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Just had a potentially interesting idea pop into my head. What if a Medium MJD was introduced and could be fit on the transports rather than bubble immunity or warp strength?


I don't think they'd even need to introduce a new module. They could simply bonus the hull like they've done with Stealth Bombers ability to fit Torpedo Launchers. Personally, I'd like to see them rework the DST entirely, shift the cargo capacity upward, and use them to fill the gap between T1 Industrials and true Freighters.


Orca already fills that role.


With the minor exception that absolutely NO ONE who hasn't suffered from either a mental meltdown or an autopilot bug takes an Orca INTO lowsec for cargo moving, unless it's under massive fleet protection, and scouted six ways from Udaema.

Blockade Runners & DST's give those who dwell in wormholes, lowsec, and, to a lesser extent, nullsec, the ability to move materials back and forth with only a small amount of assistance required, and with a fair chance at success.

Only someone who is completely ignorant of how lowsec works would ever consider such a massively idiotic proposal as using an Orca for this purpose. It's too slow, has only slightly more agility than a Titan, and accelerates into warp barely faster than my Thanny, although I could be wrong about that - it may actually be slower, I haven't flown my Orca in a while.

Moving cargo throughout lowsec and nullsec are what Transport-class ships are all about.

The Orca is a mining support vessel that can also be used to move Industrial-sized cargos in hisec.

Huge difference.


Do you actually read posts before responding to them?


"Orca already fills that role."

Yup. Got it. Still not a valid response, considering the purpose of Transports..
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#22 - 2014-01-11 05:17:28 UTC
I am disposable wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Callic Veratar wrote:
Just had a potentially interesting idea pop into my head. What if a Medium MJD was introduced and could be fit on the transports rather than bubble immunity or warp strength?


I don't think they'd even need to introduce a new module. They could simply bonus the hull like they've done with Stealth Bombers ability to fit Torpedo Launchers. Personally, I'd like to see them rework the DST entirely, shift the cargo capacity upward, and use them to fill the gap between T1 Industrials and true Freighters.


Orca already fills that role.


And it shouldn't have to. It's suboptimal, and the only reason people do it at all is because of the total cargo space available between the actual hold and the fleet hangar. A more useful solution would be to rebalance a hauler to actually bridge that gap, instead of expecting people to use a mining support ship in that role.
Laxyr
Chamsin Freight Logistics
#23 - 2014-02-20 17:55:41 UTC
The active repair bonus for BRs is absolutely useless. My Prowler only has about 2k shields and a shieldbooster would buy me a few more seconds to look at my ship while it's being ripped to pieces. Anyone competent enough to catch a blockaderunner is competent enough to kill it - shieldboosted or not. I think the intended purpose of that bonus was to increase survivability but it doesn't really fit in with the tactics employed by blockade runners. If survivability of blockade runners was to be buffed it should happen by an increase in mobility or stealth (as in signature radius, can't get more stealthy than a cov ops cloak obviously).

So what I would like to see is a boost that goes towards mobility or stealth like*:

- MWD/AB Bonus of some description or
- signature radius reduction 'bonus' or
- some kind of ECM burst strenght/duration bonus as a last hope nullsec defense


I can't think of any other nice-to-have bonuses for blockaderunners from the top of my head. I'm sure there's somebody who has a better proposal.


*Note: that's what I would like to have. I'm not saying that blockade runners need any of those or that it would do much good. I just feel pretty much anything would be better than a shield boost bonus on a ship that is not supposed to take any damage.

As for Deep Space Transports yeah well, I have two of them and haven't used them in years. Not for their intended purpose of lowsec hauling anyway. I think immunity to nontargeted warpdisruption, as mentioned by others before me, would be a great start. I think the problem lies a bit in the role definition aswell. If they are intended to be used without fleetsupport then you don't really need them. That's what BRs are for. If they were intended for use with fleets then you might aswell use a freighter or an Orca. I think there are few cases where you would mobilize some form of protection for a cargo that is too large for a BR and small enough for a DST.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on this subject: What else are DSTs used for or intended to be used for? Personally I used them for hauling stuff short distances in friendly 0.0 where any old tech 1 hauler would have done.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#24 - 2014-02-20 18:23:50 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:
And I think you're missing the part of that which included the tech 2 ships being re-balanced into lines of their own.

"Lines of their own". Do you mean tiers, are should the thread start with "Lineicide" instead? If you mean tiers, I must say that I was not aware of that Tech 2 ships of their own class were in tiers. CCP labelled the rebalancing of Tech 2 ships as merely the Tech 2 ship rebalance, associated with but not a part of tiericide.


Indies unfortunately WERE put in tiers of there own; you had the smaller courier-type ships (itty 1, 2, etc. sigil, wreathe) being sidelined by having fewer slots and that translated over to their t2 counterparts. Look at the fitting flexibility of the Prowler or Prorator compared to their current t1 class counterparts. The fittings are a joke; the prowler alone is absolutely awful in this regard.

Here's what I think should happen:
1. Blockade runners should, instead of getting a basic tank bonus, get agility, cargo capacity, sig radius reduction, and cloak CPU reduction across the board.

2. Deep space transports should get active and passive resist bonuses along their respective class lines (ex. gallente & min get active tanking, cal and amarr get resists).

3. Deep space transports get bonuses of 10% cargo capacity per level (two 5% bonuses roll into one), respective passive or active tank bonus, and +1 warp strength per level.

Give deep space transports and their class equivalents a higher base cargo hold so they can fit over 50k m3 (respond also with higher mineral costs and hull HP, mini-freighter like) and you have a good rebalance.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#25 - 2014-02-20 18:26:46 UTC
Laxyr wrote:

As for Deep Space Transports yeah well, I have two of them and haven't used them in years. Not for their intended purpose of lowsec hauling anyway. I think immunity to nontargeted warpdisruption, as mentioned by others before me, would be a great start. I think the problem lies a bit in the role definition aswell. If they are intended to be used without fleetsupport then you don't really need them. That's what BRs are for. If they were intended for use with fleets then you might aswell use a freighter or an Orca. I think there are few cases where you would mobilize some form of protection for a cargo that is too large for a BR and small enough for a DST.
Maybe someone can enlighten me on this subject: What else are DSTs used for or intended to be used for? Personally I used them for hauling stuff short distances in friendly 0.0 where any old tech 1 hauler would have done.


I think you hit the nail on the head with that part of your comment.

The issue is that DST's role is ill defined/or not specialized enough that you wouldn't simply use an orca/rorqual/carrier/Freighter/JumpFreighter in its place. Sure I can get an impel to like 100K ehp but WHO CARES. It is slow as molasses, can't avoid gates except in null, can't warp cloaked and gets a useless active tank bonus.

Ideally they'd be removed from the game as they don't offer any advantage over the logical progression which oddly enough has been taken over by the Orca and Rorqual from the ORE faction. In-fact during the re-balance for the haulers it was suggested to just get rid of racial haulers and have a few ORE variants put in place to keep up with its industrial meta.

That would largely solve the issues people face...but in terms of in-game continuity it represents a creeping of overlapping hulls and pointless competition that would lead to the deletion of racial haulers anyhow.

In-order to specialize a hauler like this it needs some advantage that plays to its role.

So for Deep-Space (null sec/w-space) you need something that lets it haul large quantities in a similarly secure fashion to a blockade runner...which is designed for small quantity hauling.

So one question is cargo hold size:
Orca has (base): 30K cargo, 40K ships and 50K specialized Ore hold (total capacity: 80K ore and 40K ships)

should probably be greater than an Orca (but no ship bay or ability to fit links) or offensive modules or carry fit ships.

So 150K m3 cargo at transports 5 seems reasonable and being a significant fraction the size of a JF makes it much more ideal for W-space and carrying bulky things like POS fuel blocks, P4 level PI etc.

Its EHP should also be similar to that of the Exhumers - trending above of 100K ehp. The Bustard and Mastodon should compete for having truly massive passive recharge shield tanks (with the Bustard coming out ahead, but the Mastodon having more speed and a smaller signature to start). Their buffer shouldn't be as large ar the Occator and Impel, but their recharge should be enough to resist a moderate gank (600-800dps passive).

They should be slow but maybe a bonus to fit an MJD instead of being immune to bubbles altogether. Also throw out warpe core stability bonus. Its cute but little use when tackled by a HIC or DIC. For which also the ramp up time should be shortened by half (3 or 4 secs at most) but a doubling of the cool-down to something like 6 minutes so there is a cost to using it and it cannot be spammed.

yay ideas!
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-02-20 18:35:09 UTC
Felsusguy wrote:
Justin Cody wrote:
And I think you're missing the part of that which included the tech 2 ships being re-balanced into lines of their own.

"Lines of their own". Do you mean tiers, are should the thread start with "Lineicide" instead? If you mean tiers, I must say that I was not aware of that Tech 2 ships of their own class were in tiers. CCP labelled the rebalancing of Tech 2 ships as merely the Tech 2 ship rebalance, associated with but not a part of tiericide.


Indies unfortunately WERE put in tiers of there own; you had the smaller courier-type ships (itty 1, 2, etc. sigil, wreathe) being sidelined by having fewer slots and that translated over to their t2 counterparts. Look at the fitting flexibility of the Prowler or Prorator compared to their current t1 class counterparts. The fittings are a joke; the prowler alone is absolutely awful in this regard.

Here's what I think should happen:
1. Blockade runners should, instead of getting a basic tank bonus, get agility, cargo capacity, sig radius reduction, and cloak CPU reduction across the board.

2. Deep space transports should get active and passive resist bonuses along their respective class lines (ex. gallente & min get active tanking, cal and amarr get resists).

3. Deep space transports get bonuses of 10% cargo capacity per level (two 5% bonuses roll into one), respective passive or active tank bonus, and +1 warp strength per level. Bubble immunity might also be a good idea, but make it so they can't fit cyno fields.

4. Another t2 line should be introduced, I think. I would like to see them add "Assault Transports" into the game, which function in heavy pvp situations. They'd be tanked similarly to the DST, but would have two combat bonuses, one tank bonus, and one cargo capacity bonus. Best example of this would be a t2 version of the Hodor (hoarder, sorry) which in addition to its ammo bay capacity bonus, would get some nice bonuses to missiles (4 launcher hardpoint, 1 utility high). 4 weapon slots and 1 utility high would be a good metric to go for with them, as I think having ships in medium to larger fleets that would be dedicated supply would not only be very useful, it'd add a fun aspect to the game (i.e. REAL battle badgers!).
They could fill a wide variety of roles, from a lowsec solo runner that can defend itself, to mining ops where industrialists can balance profit with security.

Give deep space transports and their class equivalents a higher base cargo hold so they can fit over 50k m3 (respond also with higher mineral costs and hull HP, mini-freighter like) and you have a good rebalance.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-02-20 20:58:41 UTC
One time bump to fix forum.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-02-20 21:11:32 UTC
I think the first thing they should change on deep space transports is high mass. They all have around +50% more mass than the tech 1 counterparts.

They still need some kind of other buff, but a mass reduction really is needed.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#29 - 2014-02-20 23:32:26 UTC
DSTs definitely need some work more ehp more cargo
but idk if a ship that can haul 30k or more with the ability to fit a properly sized mwd and a cloak should have bubble immunity

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#30 - 2014-02-20 23:50:01 UTC
After the Iteron line rebalance, this is more important then ever. A Nereus can be fit all at the same time to have better tank, more cargo, faster align and faster warp in comparison to the Viator. And it is 1/10 the price after fitting. It doesnt have cov ops cloak, mwd+cloak trick mostly negates that. The Viator does have only about 75-80% signature radius after all that and can fit a cov cyno. For me to consider ever training and using a Viator it would have to do much better. immuntiy to non targeted interdiction is a good start, along with more cargo and lower sig. Just in order to fit its role as a blockade runner it would need all these things.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#31 - 2014-02-21 04:21:59 UTC
crazy proposition:

-as someone stated, keep blockade runners as the stealthy and agile cloaked hauler, give it more agility bonuses or make them inmune to bubbles

-leave the tanking bonuses to the DSTs and adjust them to the current racial tanking doctrines (minmatar activer shield, caldari passive shield, gallente active armor, amarr buffer armor)

-change the +2 warp strength for something more ambitious, add an experimental jump drive. the DST would be the bulkier version which uses a jump device in order to avoid gatecamps....while the blockade runner can just get away undercovered, the jumpdrive used by the DSTs would be similar to those of black ops...
Itago Gemulus
Station Spinners United
#32 - 2014-02-21 16:26:18 UTC
I think DST should get around same stats as current JF, not all at once but MAX cargo in that range and max EHP in the same range. That way you can choose what you want/need.
Pashino
Venice Academy
#33 - 2014-03-21 15:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pashino
BR's seem fine to me

DST's about useless, separate the cargo bay from the low slots and increase it a bit. Add more passive resists.

Then, remove the +2 warp and instead add a pair of DST-only modules - 1 for +2 warp, other for bubble immunity. The operator can have only one installed at a given time but when one pops thru a gate, campers will not be sure which is active.

as long as the cargo bay get separated from the low slots, just drop those to 1 only - could be a single stab or dmg control.
KiithSoban
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#34 - 2014-03-21 15:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: KiithSoban
I support:

removing +2 warp core str on the DST and adding bubble immunity, provided warp core stabs stay in the game.

removing all bonuses from the transports that is not geared for either buffer tanking or agility/warp speed. Weapon bonuses would b for the lolz only. Edit: bonuses for that area of effect ECM would b ok.

removing cargo scan immunity from the BR and giving it to the DST.

adding at least two high slots to all BRs. They need a spare slot for either a core probe launcher, or a covert cyno.

I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)  See CSM "reasonable things"
Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#35 - 2014-03-21 17:00:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alistair Cononach
In my opinion:

Blockade Runner = Cov Ops-a-like Small-Hold Cloaky Hauler.

Pretty much what it is now.

Deep Space Transport = Battleship-like-tank Massive Hold Hauler.

Give the DST's a Battleship-like Armor/Shield pool, with appropriate low/mid slot layout.

Give two or three high-slots, and enough grid to fit weapons (unbonused) or Neuts.

So....

if you want to move small amounts safely, use the Blackade Runner.

If you want to move huge (but sub-freighter) amounts, and stand up a little if pointed, use the DST.

Two hauklers, one stealthy but easily killed, one hard as a rock, but slow and not stealthy.

Done and Done.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#36 - 2014-03-21 17:59:46 UTC
This topic comes up about once a week. I suppose I'll paste in my standard response.
Ines Tegator wrote:

The problem with this or other ideas about making DST into dangerous-space haulers is that it's impossible.

Well, not impossible per-se. You could make them completely immune to capture, but that's just stupid. The problem is, there is no way to balance a gate-camp passing ship other then giving it the ability to not get caught. No amount of tank, or warp stabilization, or even bubble immunity will make running a camp viable. Tank can easily be overwhelmed by a gang, stabilization by multiple tacklers/HIC, bubble immunity by a single interceptor. Sure, these things might get you past a lone sabre pilot or a really stupid camp, but strategies that rely on the incompetence of your opponents are never a good idea.

These ideas have all been suggested before, and some of them even tried before. None of them have worked. The rest are completely op.

The only way to make them work is give them very fast align and cloaking. We already have those in the form of blockade runners. These are so effective at their job that they have to be limited to 10k in cargo to maintain balance. I don't think this part needs to change.

The only place for DST to go is into a new role entirely, such as the mini-freighter (say, 100k cargo).

Overhaul Dscan!
Justin Cody
War Firm
#37 - 2014-03-21 19:03:03 UTC
I am glad to see people still discussing this
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#38 - 2014-03-21 19:24:36 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
[quote=Felsusguy][quote=Justin Cody]Here's what I think should happen:
1. Blockade runners should, instead of getting a basic tank bonus, get agility, cargo capacity, sig radius reduction, and cloak CPU reduction across the board.

2. Deep space transports should get active and passive resist bonuses along their respective class lines (ex. gallente & min get active tanking, cal and amarr get resists).

3. Deep space transports get bonuses of 10% cargo capacity per level (two 5% bonuses roll into one), respective passive or active tank bonus, and +1 warp strength per level. Bubble immunity might also be a good idea, but make it so they can't fit cyno fields.


1 - I reckon they ought to get a MWD bloom bonus per level somewhere in there

2 - I think amarr and caldari ought to get bonus to HP rather than resist (nothing to say all 4 couldn't get a bonus to resist)

3 - heeeeeeerrrrrrrrrr, not sure about the cargo cap per level.... though I agree they need more cargo..... and I think they should have bubble immunity, and I don't see why they couldn't have cyno's...... since you can fit a cyno to a 'ceptor (apparently).....

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#39 - 2014-03-21 19:37:51 UTC
DST should be able to use the Target Breaker

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide
Pashino
Venice Academy
#40 - 2014-03-22 11:27:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Pashino
Come to think of it, adding Bubble Immunity to DST's while keeping the inherent +2 warp stab should be fine, and not OP. Anyone claiming that adding warp bubble immunity makes the class uncatchable is just QQing. Those ships align slower than pigs in mud and gate camps can still readily take them down by either bumping or good amount of firepower up front. That most gate camps nowadays aren't set to handle that scenario well is no biggie, they can adapt if anticipating a DST to come along, and change/adaptation is a good thing in this game.

I also support moving the cloaked cargo feature from the BR to the DST.