These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

FOR THE FEDERATION !!!
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#201 - 2014-02-20 16:11:10 UTC
Anja Suorsa wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
...


Have I misread or missed important subtext in the post above, as I honestly do not see a great deal wrong with it? A mistake about our people’s willingness to sacrifice is the only issue I could take with it. That does not take away from the point; That the Caldari will not surrender their homeworld. I see nothing unduly hostile otherwise.

Maybe we should simply bomb Gallentean prime and occupy half of it, so gallenteans would finally understand our point of veiw, how do you think?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Cuci Cairi
#202 - 2014-02-20 16:24:32 UTC
Each militia show up to a club, free rounds for everyone. Whoever loses the poetry competition has to be the dancers for the night.
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#203 - 2014-02-20 16:25:53 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Though I can't speak his mind for him, I do believe that what Tuulinen-haan is saying is that the Federation actually has an excellent chance to end the fighting for a comparatively small cost. Relocating those that have no wish to become citizens of the State may cause some unrest, but what would ultimately be gained, a lasting peace, would be worth it. Arguments about removing these people from their "homeland" really are redundant at this point... As much as I'd rather not lean on it, the fact of the matter is, their forefathers have only the most shallow of roots there compared to an entire civilization and culture that was much more forcibly driven out in the name of the Federation.

Yes, it was a long time ago. Yes, I would be just as happy to shake hands and be done with it. But in the matter of ties to Caldari Prime, the simple end of the debate is; we were there first, and for far longer.

In closing, Miss Sythaeryn, I wish to extend a degree of appreciation for the open mindedness you've demonstrated, and to convey that my views here are not specific to only your question, but rather expressed more broadly on the matter at hand, in the confidence that you will consider and respond sensibly, unlike others I've 'debated' with in the recent past.


I completely understand WHY the view that uprooting a few Federation citizens that do not wish to join the State would be the most sensible solution. From the Caldari point of view, this DOES make the most sense, but I feel the need to explain why this is so intolerable to the Federation.

I'm reminded of my time aboard a colleague's Caldari class Battleship, a Raven. Marvelous ship design by the way. Inside, I saw a plaque that said the following, "All For the Good of Many." One thing I have learned about my Caldari friends, is they tend to place the needs of the many, before the needs of the few. There are good, logical reasons for doing this and I understand the position. I can see why you would think uprooting some people for the good of everything would be the wisest course of action.

And it's counter to what the Gallente stand for, individual freedom and liberty. By asking us to uproot Federation citizens, you are asking us to give up what we ARE and to trample all over the rights of our own people, to force them to give up something they have worked hard for, their very homes. What may seem a simple solution to you... is anathema to us.

Personally, I believe this is the entire root source of our entire conflict. Nevermind corrupt politicians on both sides, this is how we as a people are raised, and just as you would expect us to understand your point of view, it would help a tad if you understood ours rather than dismissing it as a simple fix to just trample all over our own people.

We are all colored by how we view the world Ms. Ishikari, and to truly gain peace and work together like I think the Caldari and the Gallente could... both sides need to work together to come to an understanding.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I'm suggesting the Federation attach an isk-value to the transgressions of the secret colonies and to their 'claim' on Caldari Prime based on the two-hundred years of settlement and levy it upon the CEP. The Corporations then divvy out that claim to the various Okusaiken who start paying it to the Federation in installments.

Part of that claim would include a resettlement figure for each of the Federal citizens currently on Caldari Prime who would have their expenses plus something paid. Those Federal Citizens who would wish to remain should have both guaranteed employment and citizenship with one of the Okusaiken PLUS the purchase of some voting stock - making them automatic citizens. In other words, they would gain franchise in the State equal to that which they were giving up in the Federation.

Such a sum would, no doubt, require a couple of generations to settle in full. Paying it off could conceivably keep the State occupied gainfully during that period.


Mr. Tuulinen... that's... a good start, though I'm not certain "guaranteed" employment is really what is being sought after in the case of people joining the State. We don't get "guaranteed" employment in the Federation after all. Ultimately, what they would fear from the State the most is their individual rights being smashed and a solution that keeps that in mind in some form would do worlds to help relations I think. I realize Federation people would need to give up some Federation ideals if they choose to join the State, but making that transition easier for them makes it easier for all involved I think.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#204 - 2014-02-20 16:26:21 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Anja Suorsa wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
...


Have I misread or missed important subtext in the post above, as I honestly do not see a great deal wrong with it? A mistake about our people’s willingness to sacrifice is the only issue I could take with it. That does not take away from the point; That the Caldari will not surrender their homeworld. I see nothing unduly hostile otherwise.

Maybe we should simply bomb Gallentean prime and occupy half of it, so gallenteans would finally understand our point of veiw, how do you think?
Screw it, blow up both planets and call it done. There's all the sacrifice we need for a couple generations.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Cuci Cairi
#205 - 2014-02-20 16:26:36 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Anja Suorsa wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
...


Have I misread or missed important subtext in the post above, as I honestly do not see a great deal wrong with it? A mistake about our people’s willingness to sacrifice is the only issue I could take with it. That does not take away from the point; That the Caldari will not surrender their homeworld. I see nothing unduly hostile otherwise.

Maybe we should simply bomb Gallentean prime and occupy half of it, so gallenteans would finally understand our point of veiw, how do you think?


I've yet to meet a single Caldari that thinks like you, speaks highly of you, or holds the same "positions" as you. Any Gallente that feels threatened by you is showing their own gullibility.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#206 - 2014-02-20 16:35:16 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

I'm suggesting this less as an admission of wrongs that need to be redressed and more as a new sacrifice for the Caldari peoples that balances the one the Federation would need to make. Reciprocity.


I personally believe it would imply that the Federation had legal right over the corporate colonies founded by Caldari corporations and that the formation of the State was an unjustified action undertaken by, "Rebels and terrorists" as once claimed by men such as Luc Duvailer. What need for reparations in upholding and defending the freedom, independence, and autonomy of Caldari colonies against a government that sought to use violence and coercion to deny them?

Kurilaivonen|Concern
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#207 - 2014-02-20 16:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Hmm. Given that our stance has long been that we have, and have always had, a perfect right to self-determination, it seems hardly reasonable to me that we should then pay to retroactively buy that right.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#208 - 2014-02-20 16:57:07 UTC
The issue, Verin, as always is reciprocity. What I'm trying to do is bypass the discussion of who did what to whom and when and look at the situation right now. Again, setting aside the morality and the first causes, to simply balance the sacrifice the Federation would make against an equal one to be made by the Caldari.

There are only two other solutions. One is for one side to unilaterally abandon their claim in perpetuity (and actually mean it) and the other is to accept that Caldari Prime belongs to whoever can take and hold it - which is to accept that the State and Federation will be at war with each other until one finally destroys the other.

My blood revolts within me, as well. Say that the Federation had the right to seize the corporate colonies? Downplay the blockade, bombardment and exodus? Assign value to the claims of thieves and squatters? Forgive centuries of agression? But to say anything else is to come back to abandonment or war eternal.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#209 - 2014-02-20 17:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Option D: acquire remote wormhole generator technology, use it to move the homeworld into orbit around a star in State space.

Lest you think I'm being flippant, frankly I consider that scenario to be about equiprobable with the idea of either side throwing their hands up and saying "fine, keep it."

So I guess it's compromise or war. Which is the better for business depends on whose economic policies you most favour, I suppose. Maybe I've just taken a violent swerve to the Practical lately, but I think I can stomach the idea of grumbling violence lasting another five years better than I can the idea of buying what's rightfully ours.

Among other things, while the status quo may not be wonderful, it is at least not an unknown. And if it lasts for long enough... well, a lot can happen in five years, or ten, or fifty. Who knows where we'll be down the line? Just because we can't foresee an Option E doesn't mean one won't eventually arise.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#210 - 2014-02-20 17:25:37 UTC
Respectfully, Verin, it's probably easier to condone from a wormhole far away from the fighting.

They say that if fighting will bring victory, you should prepare to fight. What if it will not? I don't see the point in postphoning an actual decision over Caldari Prime, simply because you find the options distasteful.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#211 - 2014-02-20 17:26:17 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Option D: acquire remote wormhole generator technology, use it to move the homeworld into orbit around a star in State space.

Lest you think I'm being flippant, frankly I consider that scenario to be about equiprobable with the idea of either side throwing their hands up and saying "fine, keep it."

So I guess it's compromise or war. Which is the better for business depends on whose economic policies you most favour, I suppose. Maybe I've just taken a violent swerve to the Practical lately, but I think I can stomach the idea of grumbling violence lasting another five years better than I can the idea of buying what's rightfully ours.

Among other things, while the status quo may not be wonderful, it is at least not an unknown. And if it lasts for long enough... well, a lot can happen in five years, or ten, or fifty. Who knows where we'll be down the line? Just because we can't foresee an Option E doesn't mean one won't eventually arise.


This isn't my area of expertise I must admit... but wouldn't taking an entire planet off its orbital axis, and putting it someplace else and starting an orbit motion again cause havoc on the planets surface? This sounds... like a suicidal plan.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#212 - 2014-02-20 17:41:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Respectfully, Verin, it's probably easier to condone from a wormhole far away from the fighting.

They say that if fighting will bring victory, you should prepare to fight. What if it will not? I don't see the point in postphoning an actual decision over Caldari Prime, simply because you find the options distasteful.


One thing that living in a wormhole has taught me is that fighting is everywhere. It's a constant that we shall never be rid of, and the things that people are willing to kill for can be remarkably petty. Have you ever blown up an Industrial just because it was there, with no intention of making any kind of a profit from it? I haven't. But your average wormholer would think I'm strange for not.

I don't believe in violence without a cause. I believe that violence is a means to an end, and if the end's important enough... Principles, autonomy, justice and old wrongs that need righting? Forgive me, but I think we can endure a little more death before those cease to be important.

Those in the trenches become understandably weary - I sympathise. Not to diminish that effort, but I don't think that my perspective is any less valid than yours simply for being, admittedly, an aloof one.

Pontianak Sythaeryn wrote:
wouldn't taking an entire planet off its orbital axis, and putting it someplace else and starting an orbit motion again cause havoc on the planets surface? This sounds... like a suicidal plan.


Inertial stabilization technology is older than the warp drive. Admittedly, the power requirements would be immense but if we're fantasizing then so long as nothing in the fantasy actually contradicts the known laws of physics - and objects teleporting from A to B via wormhole and emerging unharmed is known technology - then most of the problems involved are technical and logistical hurdles, rather than impossibilities.

It was mostly just a fun suggestion. It's an interesting exercise in theoretical engineering, too. And you have to admit, it would rather convincingly solve the problem...

Although I suppose if you could move planets around via wormholes there's nothing stopping you from throwing one into a star, which would technically make such a tool a weapon of mass destruction. But then again, there are cheaper and easier ways to make a planet uninhabitable.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2014-02-20 18:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Pontianak Sythaeryn
Stitcher wrote:
It was mostly just a fun suggestion. It's an interesting exercise in theoretical engineering, too. And you have to admit, it would rather convincingly solve the problem...


I agree with you, from a theoretical standpoint you are probably right, this might be possible... but 1 mistake.... *whistles* Disaster.

I'm not entirely convinced it solves the problem though. There is still the subject I brought up with the Federation citizens on Caldari Prime to deal with.
Chora Borghese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#214 - 2014-02-20 18:20:29 UTC
Perhaps the solution involves the surrender of the system and all of it's resources by both sides of the conflict and the installment of a new neutral government.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#215 - 2014-02-20 18:59:17 UTC
Chora Borghese wrote:
Perhaps the solution involves the surrender of the system and all of it's resources by both sides of the conflict and the installment of a new neutral government.

Just let CONCORD have the whole system then?

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#216 - 2014-02-20 19:43:10 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Screw it, blow up both planets and call it done. There's all the sacrifice we need for a couple generations.

You'd better not have any funny ideas about OUR planet!
Such murderous and life-disregarding ideas should be disgusting even for such savages as gallenteans.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#217 - 2014-02-20 19:45:04 UTC
Cuci Cairi wrote:

I've yet to meet a single Caldari that thinks like you, speaks highly of you, or holds the same "positions" as you. Any Gallente that feels threatened by you is showing their own gullibility.

It is because you are a gallentean, darling.
What a jaijii like you could know about Caldari... pfft!

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#218 - 2014-02-20 20:08:31 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Cuci Cairi wrote:

I've yet to meet a single Caldari that thinks like you, speaks highly of you, or holds the same "positions" as you. Any Gallente that feels threatened by you is showing their own gullibility.

It is because you are a gallentean, darling.
What a jaijii like you could know about Caldari... pfft!


I'm beginning to feel that Lady Cairi is absolutely correct about you. You are a radicalized individual, a minor threat. You're fate will either be met by a Federation pilot, one of your own with wiser sense, or a mercenary with a higher purpose.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge
Pontianak Sythaeryn
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#219 - 2014-02-20 20:09:11 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
You'd better not have any funny ideas about OUR planet!
Such murderous and life-disregarding ideas should be disgusting even for such savages as gallenteans.


You aren't so good at detecting sarcasm, are you?
Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#220 - 2014-02-20 20:41:27 UTC
Where to begin...there is just so much wrong with seeing a member of the Federation getting their knickers are twisted up because an individual decided to go work for someone outside of the Federation. Heaven forbid we restrict our own citizens the freedom to make their own choices for themselves.

The hypocrisy of most self-proclaimed Federal loyalists astounds me. Do you know anything at all about the very Federation that you claim to be a member of? You claim to stand for freedom yet call another pilot a traitor. Take a long look in the mirror and consider what you are actually saying. So what if she wants to work with the Caldari or the Amarr, what is it to you? Are you so insecure in your own rights to freedom that you feel the need to take away another person's freedom to choose for themselves by labeling them traitor and villain? Perhaps you should turn your hate and vitriol towards the Black Eagles and even Roden if you have a problem with the security of your own freedom.

The ideals of the Federation was to elevate, acknowledge, and celebrate the ideals and cultures of everyone. What we have is a sad and twisted shadow of what we started out as, but we also have the ability to make those changes and turn the Federation back to those very ideals of freedom and celebration of the people that make up the Federation. We also have to accept that with that freedom comes the freedom for members to step away from the Federation and do so with support and understanding, not with guns and blockades. If we are truly about freedom, why should we force another people to remain if they are unhappy?

The sad thing is, I have seen more Caldari willing to stand up for another's personal freedom than I have seen from the Federation.

So, Mr. Ronin, before you call another Gallente a traitor for working with the 'enemy', take a good look at yourself and ask yourself who the traitor really is.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky