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Warfare & Tactics

 
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Are Links Too Much?

Author
Yuri Antollare
Moira.
#21 - 2014-02-19 04:44:15 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Smook wrote:
I believe the below image fully encompasses the issues that some have with links.

http://imgur.com/tKcEfkY



That's cute....


However, I personally believe links are too much. An offgrid ship, often operating under the safety of a deathstar POS, should not boost the ability of a fleet to the level it does.

Move them on grid, and they are peachy.

Also, I highly recommend making Command Processors a Rig! That will go a long way in balancing out combat capable link ships.



Boosts are no more unfair than a person who can only fly a blaster atron fighting someone who is flying a dual web throax.

Dont dispair, aspire!


Yeah not really, in a game where a couple of % makes the difference, boosts don't 'lend you a hand' they completely break usual tactics and engagement profiles.

AB atron v LM condor, tought but with a decent atron pilot, slingshotting is a very strong possibility. However lend boosts to the condor and ... no, sorry, usual tactics available to 'good' pvpers break completely, try slingshotting someone staying at 30km doing 6km/s. Thats not an edge, thats 'pay for another account and break the game.'

I'm sure I need not go on with equivelant examples in the brawling/scram kite arena. People that leave links on for 1v1 T1 frigates are simply bads that likely suffered one too many humiliations early in their EvE days.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#22 - 2014-02-19 04:52:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Smook wrote:
I believe the below image fully encompasses the issues that some have with links.

http://imgur.com/tKcEfkY



That's cute....


However, I personally believe links are too much. An offgrid ship, often operating under the safety of a deathstar POS, should not boost the ability of a fleet to the level it does.

Move them on grid, and they are peachy.

Also, I highly recommend making Command Processors a Rig! That will go a long way in balancing out combat capable link ships.



Boosts are no more unfair than a person who can only fly a blaster atron fighting someone who is flying a dual web throax.

Dont dispair, aspire!


Yeah not really, in a game where a couple of % makes the difference, boosts don't 'lend you a hand' they completely break usual tactics and engagement profiles.

AB atron v LM condor, tought but with a decent atron pilot, slingshotting is a very strong possibility. However lend boosts to the condor and ... no, sorry, usual tactics available to 'good' pvpers break completely, try slingshotting someone staying at 30km doing 6km/s. Thats not an edge, thats 'pay for another account and break the game.'

I'm sure I need not go on with equivelant examples in the brawling/scram kite arena. People that leave links on for 1v1 T1 frigates are simply bads that likely suffered one too many humiliations early in their EvE days.


Armchair psychiatrist.

Only your perspective is broken, not the game. As often as i run into disgruntled pilots who fell into my web, i get pilots who i fell into their 'web' and used boosts to escape giving me props. Many of these pilots had boosts themselves and still deliver props for a fight well fought. Or they kill me.

I remember my vigilant dying to a 45 man battlecruiser hot-drop. You search for fair and balanced in a game that is and should be anything but.

EVE is not a 1v1 game. If that is the kind of fighting you value best you move to high sec and drop a can outside jita 4-4 or whatever the modern equivalent is.

Expecting an unarranged fair fight in low-sec is really the epitome of stupidity. You will not find one from me, nor do i expect one from anyone else.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#23 - 2014-02-19 05:06:50 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:




Armchair psychiatrist.

Only your perspective is broken, not the game. As often as i run into disgruntled pilots who fell into my web, i get pilots who i fell into their 'web' and used boosts to escape giving me props. Many of these pilots had boosts themselves and still deliver props for a fight well fought. Or they kill me.

I remember my vigilant dying to a 45 man battlecruiser hot-drop. You search for fair and balanced in a game that is and should be anything but.

EVE is not a 1v1 game. If that is the kind of fighting you value best you move to high sec and drop a can outside jita 4-4 or whatever the modern equivalent is.

Expecting an unarranged fair fight in low-sec is really the epitome of stupidity. You will not find one from me, nor do i expect one from anyone else.


This ^
ALUCARD 1208
Naga's Be Trippin
#24 - 2014-02-19 06:39:43 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:




Armchair psychiatrist.

Only your perspective is broken, not the game. As often as i run into disgruntled pilots who fell into my web, i get pilots who i fell into their 'web' and used boosts to escape giving me props. Many of these pilots had boosts themselves and still deliver props for a fight well fought. Or they kill me.

I remember my vigilant dying to a 45 man battlecruiser hot-drop. You search for fair and balanced in a game that is and should be anything but.

EVE is not a 1v1 game. If that is the kind of fighting you value best you move to high sec and drop a can outside jita 4-4 or whatever the modern equivalent is.

Expecting an unarranged fair fight in low-sec is really the epitome of stupidity. You will not find one from me, nor do i expect one from anyone else.


This ^

+1
Smook
Fugutive Task Force
#25 - 2014-02-19 07:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Smook
X Gallentius wrote:
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked for personal attacks.


I am using anti-forum-lock links now. Yeah, that just happened.

Also how can you "personally attack" a character in a video game?

What's the next expansion to include? Restraining orders?

This post is satire. That is different than an attack. Funny sells.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#26 - 2014-02-19 08:27:02 UTC
Quote:


Armchair psychiatrist.

Only your perspective is broken, not the game. As often as i run into disgruntled pilots who fell into my web, i get pilots who i fell into their 'web' and used boosts to escape giving me props. Many of these pilots had boosts themselves and still deliver props for a fight well fought. Or they kill me.

I remember my vigilant dying to a 45 man battlecruiser hot-drop. You search for fair and balanced in a game that is and should be anything but.

EVE is not a 1v1 game. If that is the kind of fighting you value best you move to high sec and drop a can outside jita 4-4 or whatever the modern equivalent is.

Expecting an unarranged fair fight in low-sec is really the epitome of stupidity. You will not find one from me, nor do i expect one from anyone else.


What you are describing is a person using link to fight a person using links. Therefore perfectly balanced. sounds pretty much like a 1v1 to me, only with extra toons.

Links are a 'pay to win' mechanic. pure and simple. You get an in game advantage to buying (or plexing or whatever) multiple accounts to give your 'main' a huge advantage against any other 'comparable' opponent. The original concept of gang links was to give players who group together an advantage to do so. Not to allow 'leet' pvp'ers to ROFLMSTOMP over 'comparable' forces. The mechanics were put in place and to aid in social play but instead were abused by the players and CCP has decided to keep, and somewhat promote the gameplay style (sidekicks etc), as it gives them greater revenue.

That fact that a 45 man BC gang dropped on your vigilant had nothing to do with game mechanics supporting 'pay to win'

And blah blah blah about 'can't afford etc don't fly' and all that shiz once again get distorted by the use of links. People also then like to point out 'falcon alt!' but at least they had to commit them to the fight and if you know how to you could counter them with something other than 'buy your own alt' strategy.

Eve is not fair, nor should it be, but it does require balance. When that balance requires people to purchase (or plex or whatever) a second account to be competitive then the mechanics are broken.

And yes when I fly with the guys links are almost always up as it is expected within the FW area. GF are given and taken and ganks happen as well. However the game mechanics are broken and I will never have a second account for links etc.

Yes I will get my arse handed to me by linked pilots, whatever, but when I'm out solo etc it is true solo as I like a challenge. The perspective is not broken but it is twisted by peoples view on mechanical balance vs account balance.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Yuri Antollare
Moira.
#27 - 2014-02-19 08:40:49 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Smook wrote:
I believe the below image fully encompasses the issues that some have with links.

http://imgur.com/tKcEfkY



That's cute....


However, I personally believe links are too much. An offgrid ship, often operating under the safety of a deathstar POS, should not boost the ability of a fleet to the level it does.

Move them on grid, and they are peachy.

Also, I highly recommend making Command Processors a Rig! That will go a long way in balancing out combat capable link ships.



Boosts are no more unfair than a person who can only fly a blaster atron fighting someone who is flying a dual web throax.

Dont dispair, aspire!


Yeah not really, in a game where a couple of % makes the difference, boosts don't 'lend you a hand' they completely break usual tactics and engagement profiles.

AB atron v LM condor, tought but with a decent atron pilot, slingshotting is a very strong possibility. However lend boosts to the condor and ... no, sorry, usual tactics available to 'good' pvpers break completely, try slingshotting someone staying at 30km doing 6km/s. Thats not an edge, thats 'pay for another account and break the game.'

I'm sure I need not go on with equivelant examples in the brawling/scram kite arena. People that leave links on for 1v1 T1 frigates are simply bads that likely suffered one too many humiliations early in their EvE days.


Armchair psychiatrist.

Only your perspective is broken, not the game. As often as i run into disgruntled pilots who fell into my web, i get pilots who i fell into their 'web' and used boosts to escape giving me props. Many of these pilots had boosts themselves and still deliver props for a fight well fought. Or they kill me.

I remember my vigilant dying to a 45 man battlecruiser hot-drop. You search for fair and balanced in a game that is and should be anything but.

EVE is not a 1v1 game. If that is the kind of fighting you value best you move to high sec and drop a can outside jita 4-4 or whatever the modern equivalent is.

Expecting an unarranged fair fight in low-sec is really the epitome of stupidity. You will not find one from me, nor do i expect one from anyone else.


Literacy... ain't it a *****. Did I say get rid of links? Just passing comment on the type that are glued to them, bit defensive no?

Not sure about hi-sec seeing as I have over 100 solo kills in lowsec this month, turns out the types that need links by their side 24/7 are few and far between, probably best for the game.

I mean you can conflate this with the whole "eve is war argument" but for me eve isn't actually real life and is actually you know.... a game. I don't log on for ganks I look for fights, sure I'll kick someone in the balls in a streetfight with life in danger, not so much in a boxing ring.

The fact remains that if non-linked pvprs responded to linked pvpers in the 'hard core super sun tzu' manner, they simply wouldn't fight, = less pvp overall just so you can not put a T1 frig at risk. Cool.

Hell ask Ibanez what happens when all you do is bait/gank with links, people will try and force a gf out of you for a bit, but in the end you're just going to have to move on to a new area, and leave the people who log on for a challenge to their epic gameplay.

Its not that I expect you to change your gameplay, I'm just ever curious how people get to your stage short of being bashed around when they didn't have links.

See also 'what if everyone camped in counterstrike,' someones gotta make content, cause sure as hell the t1 maulus aint providing any.


Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#28 - 2014-02-19 08:54:51 UTC
Yuri wanna come join the fighter squadron? \o/

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#29 - 2014-02-19 09:09:35 UTC
Yuri Antollare wrote:


Hell ask Ibanez what happens when all you do is bait/gank with links, people will try and force a gf out of you for a bit, but in the end you're just going to have to move on to a new area, and leave the people who log on for a challenge to their epic gameplay.





Man you know my corp is small and have to fight outnumberd a lot of the time. The Gallente overshipping us and out numbering us in pvp is the one and only reason we trained link alts.

Many of your fellow Gals are using links and we are only evening it up and not running at an advantage a lot of the time.

You yourself have used Yun and Dustbuster73s links + a few others i am sure.

When we lived in Innia you kept making the choice to knowingly come into a home system where we had links and numbers in a certain tz. You guys even bought your own links in and still JUSTKomplained.


I solemnly apologize that you couldn't farm noobs for a few hours of each day without risk while we lived there.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#30 - 2014-02-19 09:26:55 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Yuri Antollare wrote:


Hell ask Ibanez what happens when all you do is bait/gank with links, people will try and force a gf out of you for a bit, but in the end you're just going to have to move on to a new area, and leave the people who log on for a challenge to their epic gameplay.





Man you know my corp is small and have to fight outnumberd a lot of the time. The Gallente overshipping us and out numbering us in pvp is the one and only reason we trained link alts.

Many of your fellow Gals are using links and we are only evening it up and not running at an advantage a lot of the time.

You yourself have used Yun and Dustbuster73s links + a few others i am sure.

When we lived in Innia you kept making the choice to knowingly come into a home system where we had links and numbers in a certain tz. You guys even bought your own links in and still JUSTKomplained.


I solemnly apologize that you couldn't farm noobs for a few hours of each day without risk while we lived there.


Yuri still makes a fair point. You learn who uses links and add their booster alts to your contact list. When you see them in local you can avoid them if you don't have your own links. (LOL. Here comes so and so with his Tengu and Loki alts. Time to hang out in the POS for a couple of minutes. Roll)
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#31 - 2014-02-19 10:05:41 UTC
Quote:


Yuri still makes a fair point. You learn who uses links and add their booster alts to your contact list. When you see them in local you can avoid them if you don't have your own links. (LOL. Here comes so and so with his Tengu and Loki alts. Time to hang out in the POS for a couple of minutes. Roll)


And anytime the answer to an issue is get another account and get your own you have a broken mechanic. There is only one reason mechanics such as these are still in game. They give CCP more revenue due to more accounts.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#32 - 2014-02-19 10:41:55 UTC
Yuri Antollare wrote:

Literacy... ain't it a *****. Did I say get rid of links? Just passing comment on the type that are glued to them, bit defensive no?

*... paragraphs of drivel ...*



Literacy error is not the correct category, even if i was accusing you of something you did not say. That would be a reading comprehension error.

Much like every single wierd strawman paragraph in your post lol.

You cant get irate when someone (who didnt) accuses you of saying something you didnt then follow it up with several arguments they didnt say. Well, not without looking a bit silly anyway lol.

You are suggesting that people who use boosts are bad. Im just correctly asserting that you are just another tedious uppity dude that thinks the way you play this game is the best.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-02-19 11:31:54 UTC
Issues I see with off-grid links:

- Gameplay-wise, they're just a very expensive deployable (ISK and SP). Put them someplace safe, activate, forget unitl you need to leave system; rinse & repeat.
- They are all alts. We have scout pilots, dps pilots, ewar pilots, logi pilots... and boosting alts

Apparently CCP will force boosters on-grid SoonTM. I think that would make things much more interesting, especially if the actual mechanic is some sort of 100-150km area of effect instead of 'on-grid' which is kind of vague (grid-fu anyone?).

As with all changes in game mechanics, I'm sure there will be both 'good' and 'bad' consquences (as always, largely depending on your point of view) but... at least you'll have to actually FLY the darn things!

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-02-19 12:05:31 UTC
JuricM wrote:
I'm hoping that application comes with his recon'yun partner!



There is nothing to see here, move along. Secretly moves arazu into position. Actually come have a second look Pirate

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IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#35 - 2014-02-19 12:12:50 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:


Yuri still makes a fair point. You learn who uses links and add their booster alts to your contact list. When you see them in local you can avoid them if you don't have your own links. (LOL. Here comes so and so with his Tengu and Loki alts. Time to hang out in the POS for a couple of minutes. Roll)



Yeah it is a fair point.

I admit Yuri is a brilliant pvper and does mostly solo - Maybe his game style is the victim us responding to the rest of Gal mil blobbing so often.

But as people will regularly bring in 2x+ the numbers - Smaller corps like mine will always have to use whatever tools are available to fight with.

You never know if more wt will come flooding in and not having links up will = certain defeat due to numbers/being overshipped/both.

I did ask Yuri to join us. He kinda should but he is resisting joining the dark side. Cry





Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2014-02-19 12:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Yun Kuai
IbanezLaney wrote:
Yuri Antollare wrote:


Hell ask Ibanez what happens when all you do is bait/gank with links, people will try and force a gf out of you for a bit, but in the end you're just going to have to move on to a new area, and leave the people who log on for a challenge to their epic gameplay.





Man you know my corp is small and have to fight outnumberd a lot of the time. The Gallente overshipping us and out numbering us in pvp is the one and only reason we trained link alts.

Many of your fellow Gals are using links and we are only evening it up and not running at an advantage a lot of the time.

You yourself have used Yun and Dustbuster73s links + a few others i am sure.

When we lived in Innia you kept making the choice to knowingly come into a home system where we had links and numbers in a certain tz. You guys even bought your own links in and still JUSTKomplained.


I solemnly apologize that you couldn't farm noobs for a few hours of each day without risk while we lived there.


You realize I brought my alt from nullsec and spent over 2 months training for links after they were constantly used in Innia and that is the only reason they were in Eha. In fact, I got bitched at for not keeping her in Eha more often since I would JC back to keep making ISK for myself.

Edit: what does everyone on here say. Adapt or die. Which is why I brought links to Eha because, in at least our timezone, 10 v 3 is hard without links. But in all honesty, it is crap to essentially be forced to bring links if someone else is using them and they need to be balanced, I..e read nerfed, more.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#37 - 2014-02-19 18:52:36 UTC

Crosi Wesdo wrote:

Dont dispair, aspire!


Unlike most players, I can use all combat links on this character without need of an alt (which I have plenty of). Access to links is not an issue for me or mine.

Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:


Boosts are no more unfair than a person who can only fly a blaster atron fighting someone who is flying a dual web throax.

Dont dispair, aspire!


Yeah not really, in a game where a couple of % makes the difference, boosts don't 'lend you a hand' they completely break usual tactics and engagement profiles.

AB atron v LM condor, tought but with a decent atron pilot, slingshotting is a very strong possibility. However lend boosts to the condor and ... no, sorry, usual tactics available to 'good' pvpers break completely, try slingshotting someone staying at 30km doing 6km/s. Thats not an edge, thats 'pay for another account and break the game.'

I'm sure I need not go on with equivelant examples in the brawling/scram kite arena. People that leave links on for 1v1 T1 frigates are simply bads that likely suffered one too many humiliations early in their EvE days.


Armchair psychiatrist.

Only your perspective is broken, not the game. As often as i run into disgruntled pilots who fell into my web, i get pilots who i fell into their 'web' and used boosts to escape giving me props. Many of these pilots had boosts themselves and still deliver props for a fight well fought. Or they kill me.

I remember my vigilant dying to a 45 man battlecruiser hot-drop. You search for fair and balanced in a game that is and should be anything but.

EVE is not a 1v1 game. If that is the kind of fighting you value best you move to high sec and drop a can outside jita 4-4 or whatever the modern equivalent is.

Expecting an unarranged fair fight in low-sec is really the epitome of stupidity. You will not find one from me, nor do i expect one from anyone else.


Tell, how is this not broken:

A Snake Set boosts your speed by 24%.
A Rapid Deployment Link boosts your speed by 26%, to every member in fleet.

A lg Crystal Set boosts your rep by 34%.
The the Rapid Repair Links increase your rep rate by 35%, to every member in fleet.

I could go on, but links simply trump the bonuses you get from skills and implants and faction modules. Truthfully though, I'm alright with their strength, as long as you hold up the mantra that "EvE is not a 1v1 game".

Put the ******* links on Grid, and bring them into the combat. If your ship is boosting your fleetmates to such a level, they absolutely need to be "at risk". I applaud CCP for moving them outside of a POS FF, but until they are on grid, they are broken.

Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#38 - 2014-02-19 18:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Nexxala
I really need to get the motivation to use links more often. These threads are quite entertaining. Don't think you will ever see them 100% required on grid. Best we can probably hope for is a slight nerf if they are boosting offgrid.

TBH I would be perfectly happy if they (along with any other "assisting" ship) were just added to the killmail if they get you.

nom nom

Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#39 - 2014-02-19 19:13:38 UTC
Crosi, Yuri, Ibanez all make fair points. I guess at the end of the day, it comes down to the ethos you come to believe in when playing this game.

Crosi and Ibanez's ethos is: "Eve is not fair. So deal with it" Or something to that effect

Yuri's : "I prefer a challenge" Or something to that effect.

Everything else in this thread reads something to the effect of, "Well, you guys started using links or blobbing us first. So we decided to bring links now to counter your links/blobbing"

Which begs the rhetorical question of, which came first? The blob to counter the links? Or the links to counter the blob?

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#40 - 2014-02-19 19:27:52 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:

Which begs the rhetorical question of, which came first? The blob to counter the links? Or the links to counter the blob?


The blob is irrelevant. Any and ALL game assets scale into blobs. Grouping up to win is a natural aspect of open-world PvP.

Links are broken when looked at independently of Blobs or "unfair" fights. Their risk & effort vs reward ratio is the issue, nothing else.

"but EvE is unfair": To be frank, this is untrue at the "game mechanics" level, and Irrelevant to a discussion about links. EvE mechanics effect everyone equally. You can bring any ship you want, you can bring as many friends as you want, but the general mechanics apply to everyone the exact same way. Links are simply a mechanic that is out of balance with the rest of EvE, and that is what I'm claiming needs addressing.