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Player Owned Customs Offices: Math, Markets and Design Problems

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General Sauron
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2011-11-27 01:55:29 UTC
My opinion is that POCOs in low sec arent going to work due to the fact that they are too easily blown up, are rather expensive, and are too difficult to defend.

I am not sure how other people are going to handle the problem, but my solution is to have all my low sec planets make P2 and then just use the Command Center to launch the P2 into space. That is assuming that there isnt an Interbus CO or POCO in place and also assuming the tax rate isnt obscene if a POCO is in place.

If figure that if I plan on picking up P2 twice a day for two days every week or two, I should be able to move 2000 m3 of goods and not need a POCO and the hassle associated with it. its a bit of a hassle with hauling, but no POCO needed is that advantage.

I may consider making P3 instead in order to keep the volume down even further. Of course, this depends on whether the hauling is too much of a PITA.

I think that this is going to be a rather common work around for low sec. null sec, and WH space.
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries
#82 - 2011-11-27 04:57:20 UTC
It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. Will lowsec entities be interested in doing PI and defending it? Right now lowsec PI is less profitable than nullsec (including wormholes), however is easily raidable by the large alliances. I think PI will shift more heavily to wormhole and nullsec space, and away from lowsec for the most part.
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2011-11-27 06:29:54 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
Right now lowsec PI is less profitable than nullsec (including wormholes), however is easily raidable by the large alliances.


Lowsec PI should be less profitable than nullsec or WH. That's by design. But easily raidable? POCOs have reinforcement timers, so large alliances would have to send fleets to the systems not once, but twice in order to kill a structure than gives us no significant benefit (compared to a tech moon), no great killmail, no loot, etc. Plus they have a lot of HP so to reinforce them you'd want to use capitals or a really, really big high DPS fleet. A large alliance like mine has absolutely zero interest in sending capitals many regions away to kill some meaningless POCOs in lowsec. Our fleets are busy doing fun stuff like fleet fights in nullsec instead of randomly shooting lowsec PI structures.

If COs are killed in lowsec they are mostly going to be killed by other lowsec residents: I suggest you defend your turf.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Velicitia
XS Tech
#84 - 2011-11-27 13:41:35 UTC
pmchem wrote:
.... or a really, really big high DPS fleet.



Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...

fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy.

I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#85 - 2011-11-27 13:49:27 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...

fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy.

Yea, you just need 10-15 of these to reinforce or kill a POCO in 20 minutes.

On the other hand, that fleet can be countered by a well balanced t1 cruiser/destroyer/BC fleet. Fun fights.

Quote:
I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear".

I'm not sure what this means Big smile

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2011-11-27 18:02:40 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...

fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy.

Yea, you just need 10-15 of these to reinforce or kill a POCO in 20 minutes.

On the other hand, that fleet can be countered by a well balanced t1 cruiser/destroyer/BC fleet. Fun fights.

Quote:
I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear".

I'm not sure what this means Big smile



a good post by Jack.

If you just bring a pure tier 3 BC fleet and start shooting a POCO you leave yourself open to attack. While doing a very boring and distracting activity. Opportunity for more fights (thought it's likely fights will happen at the reinforcement timer exit, which is one of the goals of POCO design!)

and yeah all the carebear tears, so frustrating, especially since POCOs only show up in lowsec and nullsec. Everything in lowsec/nullsec should be player driven and have risk. CCP protected carebears in crucible by removing insurance payouts for deaths to CONCORD, therefore giving additional protection to the hordes of missing running bots (currently the most popular form of botting) from suicide ganks. POCOs have nothing to do with carebear activities.

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
tengen san
Triton-TC
#87 - 2011-11-27 20:13:29 UTC
pmchem wrote:
To anyone reading my thread, I have no idea what this tengen san guy is talking about. After Interbus COs were announced he still seemed to think all lowsec/nullsec COs were disappearing on patch day (they are not). He also wanted lowsec COs to be 0% tax for whatever reason, and of course POCOs have had that option since they were first announced.

I am guessing he's just a highsec guy with a bunch of alts doing PI in lowsec who doesn't actually want lowsec groups to be able to exert some control over their home turf. Who knows!



Not a guess, a presumption, wrong just as your presumptions on D514.

Pre-warned = Pre-armed!


pmchem wrote:

A large alliance like mine has absolutely zero interest in sending capitals many regions away to kill some meaningless POCOs in lowsec. Our fleets are busy doing fun stuff like fleet fights in nullsec instead of randomly shooting lowsec PI structures.


Lulling won’t take fare.
Problem, your alliance isn’t exactly well known for reliability ore trustworthiness. And who said they will or need to do the job themselves.

A. They hired out Mrechs on the Ice interdiction big time, just remember the advertisement.
B. Your alliance will be the financial sponsor for the H5-unholy uninon , are any plans up yet to include POCO’s in the deal?

Once the hulkageddon is over I make the fair assumption a new playground need to be found.

You have singlehanded set the record for the POCO taxation straight, let it be there, but don’t give out assurances you cannot hold, they only will be judged as deception.



Velicitia
XS Tech
#88 - 2011-11-27 20:40:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Jack Dant wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Tornado/Naga/Talos/Oracle...

fit for gank over tank... they will be an "easy" and "cheap" fleet that can throw out DPS like crazy.

Yea, you just need 10-15 of these to reinforce or kill a POCO in 20 minutes.

On the other hand, that fleet can be countered by a well balanced t1 cruiser/destroyer/BC fleet. Fun fights.

Quote:
I am becoming more and more convinced that CCP is doing things to start breaking up the "Great Wall of Carebear".

I'm not sure what this means Big smile



Yes, you're completely right with the first point in regards to they're stupid weak overall ... "Malcanis' Law" applies here, but essentially it gives nearly everyone the ability to do BS amounts of DPS without having a really expensive lossmail.

Think about it -- anyone running L3 missions has a pretty good set of skills for flying battlecruisers already (well, they should anyway). Train large guns up to level 3 or 4 (you were doing that anyway to get L4 missions, right?) and now you're a decent DPS platform and not getting "left out" of a fight because you can't fly a BS yet.

As for the great wall of carebear -- ask anyone in hisec about lowsec, and you'll pretty much get the same answer (don't go there, every gate has a gatecamp, you'll never get past that first jump). Now, obviously there are people who are so risk-averse that they will NEVER venture into lowsec, even with these new tools, but there are also the people who simply needed the right "incentives" if you will.

Let's say we have a gang of 5-7. We *could* fly BS, but we're better skilled with BC, and can more easily replace them.

Currently -- everyone has a BC, maybe one guy in a logi cruiser (T1)... Maybe someone in a BC has ganglinks and RR too.
Crucible -- replace 3 of the tier 1/2 BCs with tier 3 (still have the logi cruiser, and a BC with ganglinks/RR).

In both instances, let's say we run into a gatecamp with 2x BS. Both instances we're likely to DIAF, but at least now with the tier3 BC, we have a fighting chance of taking one of them with us...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#89 - 2011-11-27 21:02:56 UTC
Oh, I get it now, I think we are on the same page.

POCOs are relatively low-cost (and low income), they can be killed with low-cost fleets, and so can be defended with low-cost fleets. This lowers the barrier of entry for "meaningful" PVP. Which is great.

There's one big obstacle that keeps highseccers out of lowsec PVP, tho. The sec status losses.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#90 - 2011-11-27 23:26:51 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:

There's one big obstacle that keeps highseccers out of lowsec PVP, tho. The sec status losses.


Ahhahahahahaha...
No.

Hiseccers aren't in lowsec because they're neurotically risk-averse. If it were sec status, they'd be in FW.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Hainnz
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2011-11-28 08:48:13 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

Ahhahahahahaha...
No.

Hiseccers aren't in lowsec because they're neurotically risk-averse. If it were sec status, they'd be in FW.


Probably has more to do with many/most hi-sec players being soloers. It can be fun playing the rabbit in low-sec for a while though.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#92 - 2011-11-28 09:17:28 UTC
I see a fair amount of highsec types playing "anti-pirate" in lowsec, and some that go GCC a few times, then dissapear for a while running missions until their sec is positive again.

For that same reason the GCC when shooting a POCO will discourage highsec corps/alliances from shooting pirate offices.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Ulstan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#93 - 2011-11-28 17:32:28 UTC
I don't see big alliances rampaging through low sec specifically to kill POCO's. I'm sure they have much better things to do. POCO's take a long time to earn back their investment and are also vulnerable. They don't seem to me to be a particularly good way of earning ISK unless you are sure you can defend them easily.

The pirate corps that roam around in low sec will probably destroy a lot of POCO's (why not? They are already there) but I don't know if I see them or anyone else putting them back up once they are down.

POCO's really only work (they are a long term investment tool) if you already control the space they are in fairly well. There aren't a lot of groups doing this in low sec because low sec in general is not very profitable and POCO's by themselves are not going to change that.
Ulstan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#94 - 2011-11-28 17:35:41 UTC
I don't see big alliances rampaging through low sec specifically to kill POCO's. I'm sure they have much better things to do. POCO's take a long time to earn back their investment and are also vulnerable. They don't seem to me to be a particularly good way of earning ISK unless you are sure you can defend them easily.

The pirate corps that roam around in low sec will probably destroy a lot of POCO's (why not? They are already there) but I don't know if I see them or anyone else putting them back up once they are down.

POCO's really only work (they are a long term investment tool) if you already control the space they are in fairly well. There aren't a lot of groups doing this in low sec because low sec in general is not very profitable and POCO's by themselves are not going to change that.
Shayla Sh'inlux
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2011-11-28 23:09:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Shayla Sh'inlux
They won't be simple targets simply because I don't see people putting up POCO's in lowsec at all.

Lowsec PI will simply die out, similar to how everything else in lowsec simply doesn't exist: missions, mining, ratting, incursions and really anything that doesn't involve a Covert Ops cloak or feeling like a pro pirate when you gank an 3 month old guy in a Drake with your gang of 5 faction cruisers.

What will happen is WH corps will probably set up a few to fuel their PoS and make a bit extra on the side. Nulsec alliances will set a few up to keep their PoSes running. All the people doing ninja PI with 2/3 characters in WSpace or lowsec will just stop doing it or maybe more their operations to HiSec. It's just a complete illusion if anyone thinks people will setup POCOs for actual profit. Heck, I have never even SEEN a planet in lowsec that had more than 1 guy using it, let alone one worth putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax. There's a LOT more stuff that you can do in lowsec that is less effort, earns more and is less risk. Why would someone with any form of sanity want to put up POCOs in lowsec?

Prices on PI mats will go up like crazy and as a result t2/t3 production will become more expensive as a result of increased tower fuel costs. Eventually people will stop using their towers and revert back to public slots until a new market equilibrium is reached.

POCO's in lowsec are an insanely stupid idea. Rocket fuel @ 20k in two weeks. Robotics hitting 100k before the end of the year.
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2011-11-28 23:15:07 UTC
Just to note your last point about people that use PoS's will stop and use public slots, your so very wrong. People will keep using their PoS's to do what they normally do. People have planned and gotten ready everything they need to for the boost in fuel costs and I would hope have made plans accordingly.

As a side note, this WILL increase the costs of setting up a new PoS however due to the PI mats going up and people wanting to still make a profit. Just something to keep in mind.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#97 - 2011-11-28 23:22:25 UTC
Can you import goods to a planet that doesn't have a custom office? I realise you can fire rockets into space from your command centers, but does with work the other way?

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
pmchem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2011-11-29 00:12:50 UTC
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax.


someone here is really really bad at math

https://twitter.com/pmchem/ || http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/community-spotlight-garpa/ || Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#99 - 2011-11-29 00:27:05 UTC
pmchem wrote:
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:
putting a 100mil POCO on just to collect 2000 isk per day in tax.


someone here is really really bad at math


Someone Playing EVE is bad at math? Well, bend me over and call me a submissive, i believe I am shocked.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Velicitia
XS Tech
#100 - 2011-11-29 00:50:28 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
Can you import goods to a planet that doesn't have a custom office? I realise you can fire rockets into space from your command centers, but does with work the other way?



iirc, no

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia