These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Separate the four empires with low security space.

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1181 - 2014-02-18 12:07:38 UTC
Dav Varan wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


What are you saying ?, you want to stop solo movments of everything except for interceptor between empires ?
STFU.



That isn't remotely what I said Mr.Strawman.
How did you even come anywhere close to that?

I dont think it is to much to ask for a billion isk ship that takes 30 seconds to enter warp to need an escourt ship or two, considering that already there are tons of people who use webifiers to move faster in hi-sec.



You don't know what your saying is the problem.
By that I mean you are no considering the consequences of what you are proposing.

You are right when you say there is an unwritten rule don't travel solo through low sec in freighters.
That also applies to a lot of ship classes anything larger than frig is almost ceratin to get caught at some point.

Now that unwritten rule is fine with the current low sec distributiuon.

But you want to combine don't travel alone through low sec rule with a sec distribution that surrounds each empire with low sec.


The unwritten rule Don't travel solo in low sec becomes Don't travel solo between empires.

Travel between empires should never require multiple clients or a planned corp operation.
Thats unacceptable game design.

Confining high sec gamers to a single empire is no fun for them.

While I have no issue with low sec between empire it would need to be balanced with changes making low sec travel between empires less risky for larger ship classes than it would be today.


The unwritten rule should become
Its risky to travel between empires in a large ship
not
Don't travel between empires in a large ship ( because you die )


I think Dav makes a reasonable point here. Freighters are somewhat vulnerable.

The answer might be that in order to get a freighter through low sec, you would need a chain of scouts, each equipped with a web.

This is of course, for someone who's never done it, a logistical nightmare and does not support the free movement of goods between empires.

But of course for those who make the effort, the rewards could be large...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1182 - 2014-02-18 12:10:09 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:
Commander Ted wrote:
Dav Varan wrote:


What are you saying ?, you want to stop solo movments of everything except for interceptor between empires ?
STFU.



That isn't remotely what I said Mr.Strawman.
How did you even come anywhere close to that?

I dont think it is to much to ask for a billion isk ship that takes 30 seconds to enter warp to need an escourt ship or two, considering that already there are tons of people who use webifiers to move faster in hi-sec.



You don't know what your saying is the problem.
By that I mean you are no considering the consequences of what you are proposing.

You are right when you say there is an unwritten rule don't travel solo through low sec in freighters.
That also applies to a lot of ship classes anything larger than frig is almost ceratin to get caught at some point.

Now that unwritten rule is fine with the current low sec distributiuon.

But you want to combine don't travel alone through low sec rule with a sec distribution that surrounds each empire with low sec.


The unwritten rule Don't travel solo in low sec becomes Don't travel solo between empires.

Travel between empires should never require multiple clients or a planned corp operation.
Thats unacceptable game design.

Confining high sec gamers to a single empire is no fun for them.

While I have no issue with low sec between empire it would need to be balanced with changes making low sec travel between empires less risky for larger ship classes than it would be today.


The unwritten rule should become
Its risky to travel between empires in a large ship
not
Don't travel between empires in a large ship ( because you die )


I think Dav makes a reasonable point here. Freighters are somewhat vulnerable.

The answer might be that in order to get a freighter through low sec, you would need a chain of scouts, each equipped with a web.

This is of course, for someone who's never done it, a logistical nightmare and does not support the free movement of goods between empires.

But of course for those who make the effort, the rewards could be large...

No they just stop using freighters and use jump freighters to safe POS and then warp to high sec gate.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1183 - 2014-02-18 12:15:35 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
IoNiAn Beldrulf wrote:
I really hope CCP is not thinking of developing this into the game. Veteran players are not the only players of the game, and newbies want to roam in safety until they are ready to start losing all of their ISKies and start the chain reaction of lose isk, buy more plex, lose isk, buy more plex, lose isk, buy more plex. I say buy more plex because it is too hard to make ISK in game that will cover all of the bills generated from playing PVP. Unless your a veteran player with tons of SP and you buy a shiny ship and never lose it. Now you want to make it even easier for newbies to lose their stuff. Come On... Are You Serious?


Again, nobody is taking high sec away. This will, however, generate more of a reason to go into low sec. Currently there's basically nothing in low sec worth making the trip for. With an update like this you would have a reason to go through it at some point.

Only in uncatchable frigs, inties and covert ops ships. Which would be completely pointless. You would end up with 95% of people hanging around Jita and the rest a complete wasteland.


I don't agree here.

Looking at this empirically, without recourse to supposition and uninformed opinion, we do actually see cruisers, battlecruisers, some battleships in low sec today - even though the rewards are not there.

I have personally guided a fleet of orcas through low sec for fun. We made it, despite meeting a small gate camp.

Now and again, one of our wormhole-closing orcas gets stuck on the wrong side of a wormhole when it closes, and then we have to get it back to empire and then back into w-space. This is almost invariably through low sec at some point.

In fact, at present, almost everywhere other than mission hubs and trade hubs *is* a wasteland. Giving people an incentive (profit) to travel through dangerous space will I think actually encourage them to do it. The natural acquisitiveness of human beings (some call it greed) is a very powerful behavioural driver.

People are bright and good at solving problems. We have solved the problem of moving slow ships though dangerous space. So will others.

Interesting, varied gameplay will ensue. There will be a reason not to AFK, your heart rate will go up, and you'll feel a great sense of satisfaction when it goes right.

This is the eve I live in - because I choose to live in lawless space. It's a good Eve.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1184 - 2014-02-18 12:20:39 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
But of course for those who make the effort, the rewards could be large...

No they just stop using freighters and use jump freighters to safe POS and then warp to high sec gate.


There you go - you've just solved the problem - you're on your way to becoming an Eve trillionaire already!

Once you have your trains of jump freighters jumping effortlessly through low sec making excess profits, you'll want to start protecting your market share...

... You might start unsung your profits to invest in pvp fleets to 'discourage' other haulers from doing the same thing....

... and thus eve's economy becomes even more fascinating, with militias supporting trade organisations, trade organisations keeping a militia - they way it should be.

Separate the empires, create trade disparities - this is the foundation of the fun game Eve could be.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1185 - 2014-02-18 12:22:32 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
But of course for those who make the effort, the rewards could be large...

No they just stop using freighters and use jump freighters to safe POS and then warp to high sec gate.


There you go - you've just solved the problem - you're on your way to becoming an Eve trillionaire already!

Once you have your trains of jump freighters jumping effortlessly through low sec making excess profits, you'll want to start protecting your market share...

... You might start unsung your profits to invest in pvp fleets to 'discourage' other haulers from doing the same thing....

... and thus eve's economy becomes even more fascinating, with militias supporting trade organisations, trade organisations keeping a militia - they way it should be.

Separate the empires, create trade disparities - this is the foundation of the fun game Eve could be.

What's the point since it won't accomplish anything except the same thing that already happening, avoidance of pvp in low.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1186 - 2014-02-18 12:28:20 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
But of course for those who make the effort, the rewards could be large...

No they just stop using freighters and use jump freighters to safe POS and then warp to high sec gate.


There you go - you've just solved the problem - you're on your way to becoming an Eve trillionaire already!

Once you have your trains of jump freighters jumping effortlessly through low sec making excess profits, you'll want to start protecting your market share...

... You might start unsung your profits to invest in pvp fleets to 'discourage' other haulers from doing the same thing....

... and thus eve's economy becomes even more fascinating, with militias supporting trade organisations, trade organisations keeping a militia - they way it should be.

Separate the empires, create trade disparities - this is the foundation of the fun game Eve could be.

What's the point since it won't accomplish anything except the same thing that already happening, avoidance of pvp in low.


Well I think you've missed the part where other trade organisations may want to discourage you, so will start to learn your shipping lines' timings and routes. Then they will seek to engage your jump freighters which, although difficult to catch, are not impossible.

If they trap 2 or 3 of them in a station, you have a pretty strong incentive to free them.

This may require a degree of muscle, timing, luck or all three, depending on how incentivised your opponents are.

I think it's reasonable to put the empires far enough apart to require 2 jumps to get between them. Nothing rewarding should be without some risk. Savvy players should be rewarded as it gives them an incentive to stay savvy, and an incentive for less experienced players to learn.

Otherwise, why bother?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1187 - 2014-02-18 12:31:57 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
But of course for those who make the effort, the rewards could be large...

No they just stop using freighters and use jump freighters to safe POS and then warp to high sec gate.


There you go - you've just solved the problem - you're on your way to becoming an Eve trillionaire already!

Once you have your trains of jump freighters jumping effortlessly through low sec making excess profits, you'll want to start protecting your market share...

... You might start unsung your profits to invest in pvp fleets to 'discourage' other haulers from doing the same thing....

... and thus eve's economy becomes even more fascinating, with militias supporting trade organisations, trade organisations keeping a militia - they way it should be.

Separate the empires, create trade disparities - this is the foundation of the fun game Eve could be.

What's the point since it won't accomplish anything except the same thing that already happening, avoidance of pvp in low.


Well I think you've missed the part where other trade organisations may want to discourage you, so will start to learn your shipping lines' timings and routes. Then they will seek to engage your jump freighters which, although difficult to catch, are not impossible.

If they trap 2 or 3 of them in a station, you have a pretty strong incentive to free them.

This may require a degree of muscle, timing, luck or all three, depending on how incentivised your opponents are.

I think it's reasonable to put the empires far enough apart to require 2 jumps to get between them. Nothing rewarding should be without some risk. Savvy players should be rewarded as it gives them an incentive to stay savvy, and an incentive for less experienced players to learn.

Otherwise, why bother?

You realise that Jump freighters can jump right next to an armed POS in low, then to another POS, then warp to a high sec gate and there's no possible way to interdict them. There won't be any shipping lines.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1188 - 2014-02-18 12:52:03 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You realise that Jump freighters can jump right next to an armed POS in low, then to another POS, then warp to a high sec gate and there's no possible way to interdict them. There won't be any shipping lines.


If it is truly the case that it is impossible to catch a jump freighter no matter what, then:

a) there is no reasonable argument from trade pilots not to separate the empires with low sec, since they can just train up for a jump freighter.

b) if we wanted to create some peril for jump freighters we could simply ensure that there are no intermediary stations in the second jump system*. This is entirely possible since gate travel is not limited by distance, whereas jumps are.

* In this scenario, an organised fleet could ensure that the JF is trapped in low sec, at least until the freighting corp were able to light another cyno in the destination system. I'm not saying it would be easy, but then neither is killing a titan - but it does happen.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1189 - 2014-02-18 12:59:10 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You realise that Jump freighters can jump right next to an armed POS in low, then to another POS, then warp to a high sec gate and there's no possible way to interdict them. There won't be any shipping lines.


If it is truly the case that it is impossible to catch a jump freighter no matter what, then:

a) there is no reasonable argument from trade pilots not to separate the empires with low sec, since they can just train up for a jump freighter.

b) if we wanted to create some peril for jump freighters we could simply ensure that there are no intermediary stations in the second jump system*. This is entirely possible since gate travel is not limited by distance, whereas jumps are.

* In this scenario, an organised fleet could ensure that the JF is trapped in low sec, at least until the freighting corp were able to light another cyno in the destination system. I'm not saying it would be easy, but then neither is killing a titan - but it does happen.

They'll simply just jump them to POS, which is much safer. You'll likely just be buffing huge alliances / corps since they have the ability to wipe out smaller corporations POS and put their own up for logistics. So that'd end up being bye bye for small corporation solo freighter pilots and another monopoly for the big guys.

Well it currently is virtually impossible to catch them with the current mechanics. You'd have to make a really stupid mistake with your cyno alt to get caught before you could get inside the safety of the POS or station. You can undock in Jita and jump straight off the dock straight to a dock or POS.

Its like that because the alliances are virtually in charge of development in EVE as they control the majority of the CSM.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1190 - 2014-02-18 13:04:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You realise that Jump freighters can jump right next to an armed POS in low, then to another POS, then warp to a high sec gate and there's no possible way to interdict them. There won't be any shipping lines.


If it is truly the case that it is impossible to catch a jump freighter no matter what, then:

a) there is no reasonable argument from trade pilots not to separate the empires with low sec, since they can just train up for a jump freighter.

b) if we wanted to create some peril for jump freighters we could simply ensure that there are no intermediary stations in the second jump system*. This is entirely possible since gate travel is not limited by distance, whereas jumps are.

* In this scenario, an organised fleet could ensure that the JF is trapped in low sec, at least until the freighting corp were able to light another cyno in the destination system. I'm not saying it would be easy, but then neither is killing a titan - but it does happen.

They'll simply just jump them to POS, which is much safer. You'll likely just be buffing huge alliances / corps since they have the ability to wipe out smaller corporations POS and put their own up for logistics. So that'd end up being bye bye for small corporation solo freighter pilots and another monopoly for the big guys.

Well it currently is virtually impossible to catch them with the current mechanics. You'd have to make a really stupid mistake with your cyno alt to get caught before you could get inside the safety of the POS or station. You can undock in Jita and jump straight off the dock straight to a dock or POS.

Its like that because the alliances are virtually in charge of development in EVE as they control the majority of the CSM.


Thank you for the explanation of jump mechanics.

I'm unfortunately forced to disagree with you that jump freighters cannot be killed, here is some evidence:
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21965851

Jump freighters were conceived in Eve before there was a CSM.

The CSM was created in response to a growing disconnect between the player base and the management of CCP. Flawed as it may be, it is a great deal better than the Autocracy we suffered previously.

EDIT: and some more evidence - http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21890086
and some more - http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21770140
... I could go on...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1191 - 2014-02-18 13:38:51 UTC
They can only be killed if you mess up. Warp to the wrong gate, get a bad cyno position and get bumped off station etc. They are rarely killed in reality.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1192 - 2014-02-18 17:08:48 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
They can only be killed if you mess up. Warp to the wrong gate, get a bad cyno position and get bumped off station etc. They are rarely killed in reality.


OK, so this is movement from the position of "Jump Freighters cannot be killed".

We agree that Jump Freighters can be killed (seemly by very few people if you look at the low sec killmails on eve-kill). We agree that it's not easy, that it's a specialist job...

...and this feeds into my argument I think. With low sec separating trade areas, there will be excess profits on the table for those willing to take a (controlled) risk.

This means that more people will have the incentive to take a risk and work together. We have established that all you need is two cyno ships and a jump freighter - 3 toons. This is hardly looking like a monopoly controlled by mega-corps.

In this brave new Eve, you too would be able to play the part of Han Solo, transporting goods that no-one else will carry for huge profit. No doubt Mr Solo would also take an escort and some scouts if he had the opportunity...

It's better gameplay is it not? Can you really say that you enjoy 15 jumps of high sec in a freighter? As a way to entertain yourself in the modern age I can't think of a less fun way, can you?



Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Udonor
Doomheim
#1193 - 2014-02-19 11:50:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
Whenever you beg for chokepoints you are really describing the formula for a BORING gate camp manned by a handful of ships rather than an adventurous pirate fleet situation. The idea is a scam to put power and PROFITS in the hands of a select few -- absolute control of trade to whoever holds the choke point. Fewer pirates - not more.

Far worse than null sec gate camps - because at least null sec gate camps have null sec threats to their back.

Bold roaming pirate fleets gambling on the odds actually would mean several alternate routes exist. Thus the caravan might escape encounters or fall to someone else's pirate fleet.

Really the current hi sec situation is great for small pirate attacks as CONCORD guards them against preemptive attacks by suspicious escorts. You can hang around openly and take your time to get organized. The only minor difficulty is that you need an extra pilot in sacrificial rookie ship (or industrial for really large items) to flip the loot can before your cargo ship guy grabs the loot. Once you learn to operate smoothly in hi sec you are ready to join bigger groups hitting juicy convoys in null and wh space. Speed and coordination.


And really No change is needed to game mechanics to choke down trade until every Jita module is worth billions. As you point out CONCORD does not deal with pirates until AFTER they strike. So a sufficient supply of new destroyers and dedicated pilots in Uedema and elsewhere could kill every industrial trying to get to Jita.

The reason a trade embargo does not happen now is BOREDOM and that a large number of pilots would lead to secondary destruction of loot and dilute profits. BURN JITA campaigns do that plus more....but only until boredom mounts and the number of replacements ship run out. If you can counter BOREDOM there really is no reason that replacements ships cannot be sustained (meta 0 can work in numbers).
Ayana Mayuko
Mayuko Sisters' Trading Enterprises Ltd.
#1194 - 2014-02-19 14:20:22 UTC
To the people above talking about JFs being too hard to kill (too many posts to pick one to quote), JFs die on heavily armed POSes all the time. Theres this wonderful ship called a supercarrier which is immune to all forms of EWAR (including POS warp distuptors) and just yolos in and blaps the JF, it happens all the time. Sure, not a lot of people have a supercarrier but for those who do, content is created!

Then you, the JF pilot, decide you want to bait this super and kill it, so you bring HICs and there, more content is created! This carries on and escalations happens and so on and so forth. Basically, at the end of the day, content which wouldn't have happened before does happen due to this change (or at least, more often, since JFs do die even with current lowsec distributions).

The fact that JFs wouldn't be able to 100% risk free avoid a lowsec between the empires is good for the game - JFs would probably be the easiest method but by far the most costly and most damaging if you die, as it should be. There would be no method of completely eliminating the risk (short of being very good at picking spots for station cynos) which would only serve to further increase prices between region-specific or faction-specific items in the different regions which then goes back in to making your risky JF jump that bit more profitable and hence the motivation to actually brave lowsec.
Markku Laaksonen
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1195 - 2014-02-19 15:20:55 UTC
That damn Dev post gets me every time.

"Oh, a Dev has something to say about this, huh? ... Well ****."

DUST 514 Recruit Code - https://dust514.com/recruit/zluCyb/

EVE Buddy Invite - https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=047203f1-4124-42a1-b36f-39ca8ae5d6e2&action=buddy
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1196 - 2014-02-19 15:37:48 UTC
Can't help but think this would isolate all newer players or lone wolf types into the empire space they start out in. And when a player is skilled enough they will simply haul stuff in a blockade runner or some such instead.. Wouldn't this separation simply hand all the best hauling profits straight to the corps big enough to support their freighters?

I still don't understand the antagonism towards hi-sec. All areas in eve server (or at least should) a purpose. Hi-sec is relatively stable for business to thrive and produce stuff, low-sec provides for stuff being blown up. Lots. Null-sec and WH's provide Sov warfare. What I would rather see would be true exploration regions where nobody can set up Sov control and a pilot with wits can make serious isk by themselves or in a fleet. Hopefully the new space regions accessed with the player built gates will provide this, but all must have access one way or another.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1197 - 2014-02-19 16:59:08 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Can't help but think this would isolate all newer players or lone wolf types into the empire space they start out in. And when a player is skilled enough they will simply haul stuff in a blockade runner or some such instead.. Wouldn't this separation simply hand all the best hauling profits straight to the corps big enough to support their freighters?

I still don't understand the antagonism towards hi-sec. All areas in eve server (or at least should) a purpose. Hi-sec is relatively stable for business to thrive and produce stuff, low-sec provides for stuff being blown up. Lots. Null-sec and WH's provide Sov warfare. What I would rather see would be true exploration regions where nobody can set up Sov control and a pilot with wits can make serious isk by themselves or in a fleet. Hopefully the new space regions accessed with the player built gates will provide this, but all must have access one way or another.


It's probably important to point out that most freighters are bought by individuals. Once you figure out how, Isk is not so hard to come by in eve.

People who invest time in their eve skills benefit by being rewarded with bigger profits and opportunities, which us probably as it should be, otherwise people would not invest time and the game would not be so rich.

Additionally, "big corps" don't hand out expensive assets to players as a rule, since the threat of theft is high and there is no law against theft, or indeed any recourse whatsoever in eve. Most JFs and freighters are privately owned I can assure you.

Eve is a social game. If you want to get the most out of it, you need to get social and form or join a corp - and then invest in it. This is also desirable.

So with lowsec separating hisec empires, we are saying that investing in eve skills and your social network will bring better rewards. Savvy soloers will also enjoy excess profits.

I am struggling to understand what would be undesirable about this. Human beings like to strive to be better. We can't all be born at the top. Eve is the epitome of an egalitarian society where anyone can get ahead.

Separate the empires. People will cope, adapt and thrive. People who never leave hisec won't actually notice the difference. In-empire hauling will continue to be a low skill activity, intra-empire hauling will become a specialist skill.

This is good isn't it?

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Sunai Karvinoinas
#1198 - 2014-02-19 17:04:22 UTC
Why I cannot rate down the always stupid and everlasting stuff like this. :(
I don't know whether it's reasonable to participate in the eternal "war of threads" between pirates and carebears. Probably not.

I'm a pure highsec indstrialist and hauler with one of my active chars.
If you'd divide the empire factions with lowsec space I will haul within a smaller part of the universe only. Some stuf I'd try to contract for courier.
I'd need several jump clones spread out to the other high sec areas of different factions.

I would rather leave the game than carrying goods through lowsec or truesec space finally. I enjoy the game, because it's NOT a PvP only game. EvE became much more than a stupid pewpew game. The former game definition by CCP needs an overhaul instead of the highsec worlds.

I cannot buy an escort service by contract yet. Why? Why I cannot hire some online fighters for a fast job?
I want not wait for corp members to have time for escorting some boring hauler jobs. Casual players are lonesome riders often.

Finally prices for goods will rise, which are not available everywhere. Else the market may not take bigger notice of a division in parts.

Maybe I understand pirates wish for something new to shoot. But this is not the wish for fight between some guys who are equal to each other but the search for easy unarmed victims only. So far: keep whining. And keep spamming this annoying thread. I'm out here.

If there are some more reasonable ideas about more smooth and floating borders between high and lowsec space, they will roared down to the same war as always. No need to participate for me again. It's time wasting only.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1199 - 2014-02-19 17:20:23 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

It's probably important to point out that most freighters are bought by individuals. Once you figure out how, Isk is not so hard to come by in eve.

People who invest time in their eve skills benefit by being rewarded with bigger profits and opportunities, which us probably as it should be, otherwise people would not invest time and the game would not be so rich.

Additionally, "big corps" don't hand out expensive assets to players as a rule, since the threat of theft is high and there is no law against theft, or indeed any recourse whatsoever in eve. Most JFs and freighters are privately owned I can assure you.

Eve is a social game. If you want to get the most out of it, you need to get social and form or join a corp - and then invest in it. This is also desirable.

So with lowsec separating hisec empires, we are saying that investing in eve skills and your social network will bring better rewards. Savvy soloers will also enjoy excess profits.

I am struggling to understand what would be undesirable about this. Human beings like to strive to be better. We can't all be born at the top. Eve is the epitome of an egalitarian society where anyone can get ahead.

Separate the empires. People will cope, adapt and thrive. People who never leave hisec won't actually notice the difference. In-empire hauling will continue to be a low skill activity, intra-empire hauling will become a specialist skill.

This is good isn't it?



I can see your thinking but still think this would increase the separation between the empires and benefit only the larger groups. It would be too easy for large corps to choke the trade routes to all but themselves (and allies). This would not encourage people to leave hi-sec at all but further entrench them I feel.

Hi-sec serves a purpose and needs to be freely navigable to do so, as you say greater profits are available from low/null but individuals must choose to make that jump, not be forced to do so.

Enticements and inducements to run into low would be better than creating low-sec buffer zones. I regularly jump into low and have great fun running through in a crappy nereus. Is it nerve-wracking? Hell yes...Is it fun? Damn right...Do I care if I lose a crappy loot fitted t1 hauler? nope. We need ways to show people that it's fun to do things differently, but even then if manufacturing in hi-sec is their thing good luck to them. It should always be a choice to enter low-sec space.

All I could see happening would be blockade runners hauling goods the 2 jumps from area to area, pretty much limiting the inter-regional trade ti high isk density goods or bulk goods carried by corps big enough to mount a defensible convoy

A different take on this... Hi-Sec folks tend to include the PvE people who would be interested in better storyline development etc. Some kind of storyline development that drew them into low-sec by jumping in through empire dropped cynos and such would be more likely to draw them in to run missions. If the mission site was effectively safe until completion, but you were on your own to make your way out afterwards then I think this would likely draw more people in and provide better hunting opportunities for the low-sec folks too.

The higher level the mission, the further into low you are dropped so a lvl II mission would drop you 2 jumps in, lvl II 3 jumps in, lvl IV 4 jumps in. You want all the loot and salvage? Better bring a corpmate to help carry it. You'd also better be ready to fight your way out...

These kind of missions could easily be linked to story developments in futre and even live events setup.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1200 - 2014-02-19 18:12:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:


I can see your thinking but still think this would increase the separation between the empires and benefit only the larger groups. It would be too easy for large corps to choke the trade routes to all but themselves (and allies). This would not encourage people to leave hi-sec at all but further entrench them I feel.

Hi-sec serves a purpose and needs to be freely navigable to do so, as you say greater profits are available from low/null but individuals must choose to make that jump, not be forced to do so.

Enticements and inducements to run into low would be better than creating low-sec buffer zones. I regularly jump into low and have great fun running through in a crappy nereus. Is it nerve-wracking? Hell yes...Is it fun? Damn right...Do I care if I lose a crappy loot fitted t1 hauler? nope. We need ways to show people that it's fun to do things differently, but even then if manufacturing in hi-sec is their thing good luck to them. It should always be a choice to enter low-sec space.

All I could see happening would be blockade runners hauling goods the 2 jumps from area to area, pretty much limiting the inter-regional trade ti high isk density goods or bulk goods carried by corps big enough to mount a defensible convoy

A different take on this... Hi-Sec folks tend to include the PvE people who would be interested in better storyline development etc. Some kind of storyline development that drew them into low-sec by jumping in through empire dropped cynos and such would be more likely to draw them in to run missions. If the mission site was effectively safe until completion, but you were on your own to make your way out afterwards then I think this would likely draw more people in and provide better hunting opportunities for the low-sec folks too.

The higher level the mission, the further into low you are dropped so a lvl II mission would drop you 2 jumps in, lvl II 3 jumps in, lvl IV 4 jumps in. You want all the loot and salvage? Better bring a corpmate to help carry it. You'd also better be ready to fight your way out...

These kind of missions could easily be linked to story developments in futre and even live events setup.


You say you think this and feel that. I understand the feelings but in truth improvements to human society don't happen through thoughts and feelings, they happen through rigorous examination of the facts and the testing of hypotheses (thoughts) against experimental data (facts). I am of course thinking of such things and the eradication of Polio, Smallpox, malnutrition and so on..

So lets look at some facts.

We do have storyline missions that draw you into lowsec. We do have level 5 missions, which are exclusively in lowsec. These things exist. They may be a bit rubbish and in need of improvement, I'll grant you that. But they are there.

Another fact is that lowsec dwellers don't need to be given opportunities - they are the kind of people who find them. This trait is common to successful people in real life. While some accept the staus-quo and/or moan about their weight, poverty, race, gender or whatever; others get off their bums and make stuff happen. Behold the lowsec priate/explorer/FW pilot.

My view is that hisec is full of people who would like some adventure, but need a reason. This is how you get otherwise intelligent young men to fight in a bloody dangerous war - you give them a cause.

At the moment, there is no cause. Hisec is full of people not realising their potential. Trolling around from jita to Osmon, earning isk to bling up ships which hisec pirates then blow up for fun, profit and tears!

I have to be completely honest with you - I have lost more ships in hisec than in low, null and w-space put together. Hisec makes you lazy and passive, but it's actually very dangerous if you are carrying anything of value, or even just meet someone who likes ganking people. You cannot take preemptive action against pirates - you are entirely at their mercy.

It might be surprising to read this, but this is how the pirates, griefers and trolls see it. In lowsec they really have to work hard for their kills - because people shoot back first!

There is another theme to your post - this idea of "big corps" gate-camping choke points. First of all, "big corps" have better things to do than hunting low value targets for more than a short time. They have plex's to buy and pvp ships to replace. They need to make money. You only make money by going after high value targets. High value targets make money by avoiding trouble. The OP is proposing multiple lowsec routes between regions - i.e. no choke points. There will always be a way round.

I have further proposed that there could be one, long highsec route between regions. Something quite boringly long like 20 or 30 jumps. Then if you really, really want to avoid lowsec you can do it, but the extra money will be made by managing risks through the lowsec routes. This then does give what we agree people need - incentive.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".