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Who do you think is seeding cheap PLEXes around Jita?
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Jori McKie
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2014-02-11 09:11:52 UTC
You all forget that there are entities out there with enormous ISK reserves, e.g. Somer Blink, CFC, PL, NC., even some single players have trillions in ISK.
Especially Somer Blink is/was heavily invested in PLEX, see the donation drive PHILIPPINES TYPHOON RELIEF. I can't remember how many PLEX Somer donated, the number in my head is 3000 PLEX.

Anyway, there are enough entities "playing" in the PLEX market with different interests.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar
Arec Bardwin
#22 - 2014-02-11 10:10:18 UTC
TheSmokingHertog wrote:

Maybe you should watch the youtube stream and hear out the reasoning of CCP and the way the CSM and CCP handled it. Also, do you know what happens to banking systems without a central bank? They spin out of control. When the goons found about the flaws in the FW mechanics, the market could not function properly. The player driven market has never been disturbed, just saved from disproportional imbalance, think rampant inflation. This inflation would put a lot of people out of business all over EVE. Would that spiral have head on, the EVE economy would have collapsed, collapsed hard. Possibly dragging the game-community with it, and subscriber ratings behind that.
Could be hugely entertaining in its own way Lol
Qalix
Long Jump.
#23 - 2014-02-12 16:02:16 UTC
CCP has interfered in teh PLEX market only once. They tell the CSM when they do it too.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#24 - 2014-02-13 22:00:27 UTC
Tarpedo wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
CCP's main interventions into the market are promoting PLEX discounts when prices are higher. The banned account sales are small beer in comparison.

I'm afraid that isn't all. I've seen attempt of PLEX to climb beyond 650mil in October - and it was suppressed by massive injections of cheap PLEXes around Jita. When PLEX tried to drop below 590mil after sales and Blink-gate - drop was stopped by multiple 100 PLEX buying orders above "actual" market price.



That could easily be Mynnna, who has stated that he has ~3 trillion in assets and a large amount of that in PLEX.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Tarpedo
Incursionista
#25 - 2014-02-13 22:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarpedo
There is only one reason I could imagine for these orders (besides market manipulations by devs): traps for ganking. But it won't work with orders created in 5 different systems at once - you'll need 5 fleets instead of 1.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
That could easily be Mynnna, who has stated that he has ~3 trillion in assets and a large amount of that in PLEX.

There is no reason for a person whose assets are in PLEX to hold its growth. And there is no reason for a person to buy PLEXes above market price when prices are falling. All of this is done *around* Jita so orders hang there for a long time and work as an anchor for people who are trying to create sell/buy orders. Prices may differ by as much as 3mill ISK which is unimaginable for normal market with its 0.01 ISK games.
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#26 - 2014-02-14 00:53:02 UTC
Well, this is a good time to speculate an increase in demand.

We're coming up on the 1 month anniversary of the Titanacolyspse that was pretty well broadcasted, and got alot of new people to join and older people to resubscribe.

The time up to and right after the 1 month anniversary will see more than usual people buying plex.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#27 - 2014-02-14 04:21:10 UTC
From CSM8 minutes regarding CCP intervention:

"Mynnna asked about PLEX price goals, and both Dr. EyjoG and Recurve confirmed that the goal with the PLEX market is to prevent dramatic changes, not to maintain any particular price. PLEX prices divided by number of subscriptions is a much flatter graph, indicating that increased account numbers drive a lot of demand."

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-02-16 21:10:10 UTC
Tarpedo wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
CCP's main interventions into the market are promoting PLEX discounts when prices are higher. The banned account sales are small beer in comparison.

I'm afraid that isn't all. I've seen attempt of PLEX to climb beyond 650mil in October - and it was suppressed by massive injections of cheap PLEXes around Jita. When PLEX tried to drop below 590mil after sales and Blink-gate - drop was stopped by multiple 100 PLEX buying orders above "actual" market price.


For sure it has to be CCP and not one/some clever trader/s with an interest to keep prices at a certain level.... that's way to unreasonable to consider... sure.

BOOH CCP.. BOOOH! Pirate
Marsan
#29 - 2014-02-18 04:09:39 UTC
Not to mention if CCP wants to influence the plex market they just have to increase real world prices or do a plex sale.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Claire Voyant
#30 - 2014-02-19 12:08:47 UTC
Tarpedo wrote:
There is only one reason I could imagine for these orders (besides market manipulations by devs): traps for ganking. But it won't work with orders created in 5 different systems at once - you'll need 5 fleets instead of 1.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
That could easily be Mynnna, who has stated that he has ~3 trillion in assets and a large amount of that in PLEX.

There is no reason for a person whose assets are in PLEX to hold its growth. And there is no reason for a person to buy PLEXes above market price when prices are falling. All of this is done *around* Jita so orders hang there for a long time and work as an anchor for people who are trying to create sell/buy orders. Prices may differ by as much as 3mill ISK which is unimaginable for normal market with its 0.01 ISK games.

Maybe it's the people in Jita with their 0.01 isk games that are the ones that need to be explained.
If I list my PLEX order in Jita I will most likely get covered by a 0.01er in minutes. If I list it next door, it stays visible.
Some people actually use PLEX instead of just trading them, and the PLEX don't need to be in Jita to be used.
And heck, everytime I go to Jita I wake up next door anyways.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#31 - 2014-02-19 13:24:58 UTC
Tarpedo wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:
CCP have admitted that they interfere with the PLEX market though.
It seems my suspicion was correct and there is no free market for PLEX - just like it happens in actual economy with money printed to bailout banks.

Could be interesting to know - how exactly CCP calculated optimal PLEX price ~620mil ISK? Why isn't 300 or 1500mil?
They are only interesting in balancing out sharp risses and falls in PLEX prices. You should thank them really, since without this, the market for PLEX would be destroyed pretty quickly. It's the hazard of importing real currency into in-game items. The same is with real life. They don't just "print money" (loosely using that term) to bailout banks because they feel like being nice to the banks. They do it because the damage to the economy from a collapsed financial institution would far outweigh the damage from thoughtfully adjusting the economy. In the same way, PLEX market crashes would trash the economy pretty quickly.

And PLEX prices used to be a lot lower. They are ticking up over time as demand increases.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Julius Rigel
#32 - 2014-02-19 16:19:07 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
They are only interesting in balancing out sharp risses and falls in PLEX prices.
Well, they shouldn't. That's my opinion.

Lucas Kell wrote:
You should thank them really, since without this, the market for PLEX would be destroyed pretty quickly.
1) Why do you think the market would be destroyed? They stopped using shuttles to regulate the trit price years ago, and the mineral market hasn't been destroyed.

2) If indeed the PLEX market went haywire as a result of deregulation, that's what the PLEX market should be like. Again, in my opinion. Feel free to disagree with me, you're allowed to be wrong.

Lucas Kell wrote:
It's the hazard of importing real currency into in-game items.
Hey, I'm all for hazard. That's why I play EVE, and not any other MMO where the hazard can be turned off. Bring on the hazard. Pile it on, baby!

Lucas Kell wrote:
The same is with real life. They don't just "print money" (loosely using that term) to bailout banks because they feel like being nice to the banks. They do it because the damage to the economy from a collapsed financial institution would far outweigh the damage from thoughtfully adjusting the economy.
They are also wrong, but that's a different discussion.

Lucas Kell wrote:
And PLEX prices used to be a lot lower. They are ticking up over time as demand increases.
Demand is higher, supply is also higher. Do you have some evidence to the contrary?

Do YOU like to undock?
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#33 - 2014-02-20 21:10:37 UTC
One time bump to fix forum.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#34 - 2014-02-27 17:20:47 UTC
Julius Rigel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
It's the hazard of importing real currency into in-game items.
Hey, I'm all for hazard. That's why I play EVE, and not any other MMO where the hazard can be turned off. Bring on the hazard. Pile it on, baby!
Well I'm not for hazard when that hazard is with CCPs bottom line. If the plex market crashed, purchases for sale would drop (who's going to pay $15 for 50m isk for example) and so CCP would hemorrhage profit. Since plex purchases can't be restricted (like in game isk/item generation which can only be done at a maximum rate) they have to regulate the price to prevent large transactions for swaying the market too much. It would only take one good peak of the plex price to cause enough people to buy plex for sales to flood the market.

Julius Rigel wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
And PLEX prices used to be a lot lower. They are ticking up over time as demand increases.
Demand is higher, supply is also higher. Do you have some evidence to the contrary?
I never stated supply didn't increase, but the price increase is likely due to more demand since there's more uses for plex now.

the real long and short of it though is that CCP can regulate whatever the hell they want, and when it's directly affecting their income, it's no surprise it's being done since they are a business and income is generally important. Either you need to accept it or find the door.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#35 - 2014-02-27 18:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: mechtech
Julius Rigel wrote:
It would only take one good peak of the plex price to cause enough people to buy plex for sales to flood the market.


No way, that's just not a realistic scenario. The only time CCP has used PLEX manipulation is when there was a huge manipulation attempt that spiked the market up hundreds of mil. This no doubt caused many people to go out and buy plex, but in actuality the bandwagon effect was even stronger than the increased supply. This is expected in Eve. We bandwagon, and we bandwagon hard. Eventually CCP stepped in and dropped thousands of PLEX into the market, the bandwagoners dumped their stock, and presumably the original manipulators dumped their insanely large stack of PLEX. All of that wasn't even enough to crash the PLEX market.

There are just too many players (like me) that will drop billions into any real drop in PLEX price just to increase their stack size. Because we all really know, it's going nowhere but up over the long term.

CCP is concerned only with rapid spikes of PLEX that players don't see coming, causing account lapses and a quick jolt of subscriber drops.

Julius Rigel wrote:

the real long and short of it though is that CCP can regulate whatever the hell they want, and when it's directly affecting their income, it's no surprise it's being done since they are a business and income is generally important. Either you need to accept it or find the door.


That may be, but the only confirmed time that CCP have manipulated PLEX is was both a very obvious market move and extremely well disclosed on CCP's end (fanfest panel on it). Given that, I think it's a stretch to imagine CCP dropping clandestine stacks of PLEX around over long periods of time. Either way, I would hope the CSM would confirm if any further CCP interventions were made. I think we as players (after all, many of us are traders who pay our monthly fee mainly to play the market)
Julius Rigel
#36 - 2014-03-01 10:48:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
CCP can regulate whatever the hell they want, and when it's directly affecting their income, it's no surprise it's being done since they are a business and income is generally important.
Yes, CCP can do whatever they want. I agree. Yes, I agree with your reasoning as to why they might regulate the PLEX market. It makes sense. I also agree that this is probably what CCP should be doing with their product, as a company. Their goal is making money.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Either you need to accept it or find the door.
It's not a question of accepting or not accepting. I'm not going to stop playing just because the game isn't my idea of perfect. But I'm also not going to stop having an opinion just because it's "close enough". You can cut with a slightly dull blade, but that doesn't mean you should never consider the possibility of sharpening it.

I just pointed out that my goal as a player, and as not a member of CCP, the company trying to make money, my goal is not for them to make money, but to enjoy the game. I get enjoyment from the idea of the market being unregulated. To that end, regulation of the market does not contribute to my personal enjoyment. Whether or not the PLEX market would crash if they stopped manipulating it is a relevant issue to CCP, whose goal it is to make money, but crash or no crash has no effect on my goal of enjoying the game - I would have equal amounts of fun from either scenario; if the market crashes, that is an exciting, player-driven event in the game. If the market doesn't crash, that is also an exciting, player-driven event.

Now, if you want to consider CCP's continued well-being as a factor in my net enjoyment (CCP makes money, CCP spends money on keeping Tranquility online, I get to keep logging in every day), then yes, you are correct, the well-being of the market is relevant to my long-term ability to play the game, and enjoyment thereof. In that case we come back to my opinion: I don't think the PLEX market would crash. I think the price of PLEX is just going to go on its merry way, following inflation and the seasonal changes in volume and liquidity.

mechtech wrote:
...
Holy ***, fix your quotes, man! I didn't say any of that stuff!

Do YOU like to undock?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#37 - 2014-03-01 15:21:18 UTC
The proof is in the pudding. Look at a bar chart for signs of ECB intervention... there aren't any as of now.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Riyria Twinpeaks
Perkone
Caldari State
#38 - 2014-03-02 19:20:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Riyria Twinpeaks
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. What I understood:

case 1:
PLEX price rises. Eventually some (or a lot) of PLEX sales happen for isk amounts in the lower range of the current PLEX prices.

case 2:
PLEX price falls. Eventually some (or a lot) of PLEX buy orders appear, buying plex for a higher price than the other buy orders.

Here's what I don't get: Assuming the prices in case 1 are higher than in case 2, which I will, since in case 1 the prices were rising for a while and in case 2 they were falling, I don't see anything which warrants to think of a conspiracy here.

Someone, or more likely several people, are rich, and they buy PLEX in times when they're cheap (of course for the then highest buy price. Else people wouldn't sell to them, doh!) and sells PLEX in times when they're expensive.

Can someone please tell a newbie like I am what I am missing here?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#39 - 2014-03-03 02:15:17 UTC
Riyria Twinpeaks wrote:

Can someone please tell a newbie like I am what I am missing here?


You are missing how many in EvE wear tin foil hats! They see covert manouvres and conspiracy everywhere!

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
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