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Battlecruiser and Battleship Buff

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2014-02-18 19:41:38 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

What I am suggesting are minor buffs not huge buffs.



perhaps u dnt appreciate how big a buff a BS hitting small things is. BS's do what they are meant to pretty well. they apply brute force to anything that doesnt move very much. if battleships could hit targets of all sizes for significant dps, why would you fly anything else? all dps boats will be BS's or go home.

Dnt expect BS's to be as versatile as cruisers. as the middle ground, cruisers are just very well rounded in mobility and brute force.

You realise an Ishtar can do 900 dps, which is 100 dps less than an Megathron and can pop a frig in one shot... plenty of ships in EVE that can do the DPS of a Mega.

Its been like that for a while and I"m not seeing fleets of Ishtar warping around taking over EVE.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2014-02-18 19:46:31 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

What I am suggesting are minor buffs not huge buffs.



perhaps u dnt appreciate how big a buff a BS hitting small things is. BS's do what they are meant to pretty well. they apply brute force to anything that doesnt move very much. if battleships could hit targets of all sizes for significant dps, why would you fly anything else? all dps boats will be BS's or go home.

Dnt expect BS's to be as versatile as cruisers. as the middle ground, cruisers are just very well rounded in mobility and brute force.

You realise an Ishtar can do 900 dps, which is 100 dps less than an Megathron and can pop a frig in one shot... plenty of ships in EVE that can do the DPS of a Mega.

Its been like that for a while and I"m not seeing fleets of Ishtar warping around taking over EVE.


This is also a shield fit damage Ishtar compared to an armor mega.


A shield Mega damage fit can do, IIRC, pushing 1300 maybe more, where an armor-tar, again IIRC, can draw DPS values as low as 500.


There are plenty of ships that can do 1000 DPS. Remove Capitals you remove about 1/3 of them. Remove T3 BC's you remove another quarter, as these ships were designed to do just that with crappy tank. Then that leaves you with BS and maybe a couple HAC's and combat BC's. However, those HAC's and combat BC's can't do 1000 DPS and still have 40k armor to play with, or however much shield(Bleck), and can't project their damage as far as a BS. They ARE more mobile, but they have to move to project that same DPS value.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2014-02-18 19:47:51 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Right... Filing Infinity Ziona into the 'has no clue what they're talking about, troll into the ground' category, right there with deadonstick and goldiiee.



I appreciate free speech as much as the next guy, but have a clue before speaking..... It's a simple request.

Oh an elitist. You're BS logi fleets are irrelevant. Logis are not battleships. You still haven't explained why you've only lost 2 BS while you've destroyed 153?

How is it they're so amazingly OP yet die so much?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#44 - 2014-02-18 19:57:37 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You realise an Ishtar can do 900 dps, which is 100 dps less than an Megathron.

A Mega can dish out quite a bit more than 1000 DPS.

Oh god.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-02-18 19:58:54 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Right... Filing Infinity Ziona into the 'has no clue what they're talking about, troll into the ground' category, right there with deadonstick and goldiiee.



I appreciate free speech as much as the next guy, but have a clue before speaking..... It's a simple request.

Oh an elitist. You're BS logi fleets are irrelevant. Logis are not battleships. You still haven't explained why you've only lost 2 BS while you've destroyed 153?

How is it they're so amazingly OP yet die so much?




That would venture into the realm of strategy, fleet comp, player skill(not mine specifically but my corp/alliance as compared to my opponents) quality of fits, fights chosen, and tbh, a fair bit of luck.

But I don't expect you to understand these things.

You seem to be under the impression that Rigs are relevant when discussing whether BS should be buffed or not, when they are not in any way relevant to the hulls as they are completely voluntary in what rigs(if any) you fit.


I am not an Elitist. I am a realist. And I've spent a long time learning. I've made plenty of stupid mistakes, lost many ships for stupid reasons.

I am glad to see you are using some of the tools available to you and researching. Good. Now Open up EFT or EveHq, or Pyfa, or w/e, and find me another ship(NOT a BS or capital) that can fit the same EHP, damage, projection, and cost efficiency as a Mega.

Ignore Sig radius/speed tank for now. Those are trade offs of choosing a heavy doctrine vs a light doctrine.


The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#46 - 2014-02-18 21:46:33 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

What I am suggesting are minor buffs not huge buffs.



perhaps u dnt appreciate how big a buff a BS hitting small things is. BS's do what they are meant to pretty well. they apply brute force to anything that doesnt move very much. if battleships could hit targets of all sizes for significant dps, why would you fly anything else? all dps boats will be BS's or go home.

Dnt expect BS's to be as versatile as cruisers. as the middle ground, cruisers are just very well rounded in mobility and brute force.

You realise an Ishtar can do 900 dps, which is 100 dps less than an Megathron and can pop a frig in one shot... plenty of ships in EVE that can do the DPS of a Mega.

Its been like that for a while and I"m not seeing fleets of Ishtar warping around taking over EVE.


depending on whether u go for the third armour plate or third mag stab its 1250 or 1380. and that ishtar cant tank as good as either. for sitting on someones face, mega's are pretty darn good.

dnt get me wrong, ishtars are decent and, while ur not seeing fleets of them, fleets of them are commonly used.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2014-02-18 22:18:26 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Right... Filing Infinity Ziona into the 'has no clue what they're talking about, troll into the ground' category, right there with deadonstick and goldiiee.



I appreciate free speech as much as the next guy, but have a clue before speaking..... It's a simple request.

Oh an elitist. You're BS logi fleets are irrelevant. Logis are not battleships. You still haven't explained why you've only lost 2 BS while you've destroyed 153?

How is it they're so amazingly OP yet die so much?




That would venture into the realm of strategy, fleet comp, player skill(not mine specifically but my corp/alliance as compared to my opponents) quality of fits, fights chosen, and tbh, a fair bit of luck.

But I don't expect you to understand these things.

You seem to be under the impression that Rigs are relevant when discussing whether BS should be buffed or not, when they are not in any way relevant to the hulls as they are completely voluntary in what rigs(if any) you fit.


I am not an Elitist. I am a realist. And I've spent a long time learning. I've made plenty of stupid mistakes, lost many ships for stupid reasons.

I am glad to see you are using some of the tools available to you and researching. Good. Now Open up EFT or EveHq, or Pyfa, or w/e, and find me another ship(NOT a BS or capital) that can fit the same EHP, damage, projection, and cost efficiency as a Mega.

Ignore Sig radius/speed tank for now. Those are trade offs of choosing a heavy doctrine vs a light doctrine.



All these Battleship experts who have never actually used Battleships....

You have no idea what you are talking about I'm sorry. I personally have used battleships from the moment I could get into one and only stopped when they were nerfed so bad they become a complete liability to solo in.

The reason if you'd admit, that you only have 2 BS losses and 153 kills is because you don't fly battleships. If you did you would know the limitations that they have. You don't because you don't fly battleships but you have seen them used in fleet fights, with tacklers (remove the barrier to tackling), with RR (remove the barrier of speed, agility, cap), with links, remote sebo, remote everything right).

You're argument is Battleships are fine because there are fleets of exceptional ships that make their deficiencies less noticable.

TL;DR

You're wrong.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#48 - 2014-02-18 22:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ellendras Silver
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Right... Filing Infinity Ziona into the 'has no clue what they're talking about, troll into the ground' category, right there with deadonstick and goldiiee.



I appreciate free speech as much as the next guy, but have a clue before speaking..... It's a simple request.

Oh an elitist. You're BS logi fleets are irrelevant. Logis are not battleships. You still haven't explained why you've only lost 2 BS while you've destroyed 153?

How is it they're so amazingly OP yet die so much?




That would venture into the realm of strategy, fleet comp, player skill(not mine specifically but my corp/alliance as compared to my opponents) quality of fits, fights chosen, and tbh, a fair bit of luck.

But I don't expect you to understand these things.

You seem to be under the impression that Rigs are relevant when discussing whether BS should be buffed or not, when they are not in any way relevant to the hulls as they are completely voluntary in what rigs(if any) you fit.


I am not an Elitist. I am a realist. And I've spent a long time learning. I've made plenty of stupid mistakes, lost many ships for stupid reasons.

I am glad to see you are using some of the tools available to you and researching. Good. Now Open up EFT or EveHq, or Pyfa, or w/e, and find me another ship(NOT a BS or capital) that can fit the same EHP, damage, projection, and cost efficiency as a Mega.

Ignore Sig radius/speed tank for now. Those are trade offs of choosing a heavy doctrine vs a light doctrine.



All these Battleship experts who have never actually used Battleships....

You have no idea what you are talking about I'm sorry. I personally have used battleships from the moment I could get into one and only stopped when they were nerfed so bad they become a complete liability to solo in.

The reason if you'd admit, that you only have 2 BS losses and 153 kills is because you don't fly battleships. If you did you would know the limitations that they have. You don't because you don't fly battleships but you have seen them used in fleet fights, with tacklers (remove the barrier to tackling), with RR (remove the barrier of speed, agility, cap), with links, remote sebo, remote everything right).

You're argument is Battleships are fine because there are fleets of exceptional ships that make their deficiencies less noticable.

TL;DR

You're wrong.



you mean like in real life, its also called support What? BS and bigger ships are just not used to PVP solo they can do PVE solo under the right circumstances, PVP is possible with support. but once tackled when solo your dead. it really doesn't matter if your in BS, carrier, super, dread or titan

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#49 - 2014-02-18 22:39:32 UTC
most of ur BS losses are from other battleships...

maybe BS's are fine. Maybe u suck at PvP?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-02-18 23:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Ellendras Silver wrote:

you mean like in real life, its also called support What? BS and bigger ships are just not used to PVP solo they can do PVE solo under the right circumstances, PVP is possible with support. but once tackled when solo your dead. it really doesn't matter if your in BS, carrier, super, dread or titan

Historically BS were some of the most dangerous solo ships. Unlike in EVE they were the fastest ships in the fleet, could slaughter frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers as well as battleships. It took an entire fleet to sink the Bismarck, the Tirpitz tied up the home fleet for most of the war just by existing. Battle of the River Plate the Graf Spee fought 3 cruisers, causing one to withdraw with damage.

Of course EVE is only based loosely on naval vessels so the point is pretty moot.

Regarding soloing in Battleships yes is very difficult, for the reasons I have outlined in this thread - scan resolution is horribly nerfed meaning you cannot force an engagement, this means the only time you will find combat is vs other battleships / perhaps a battlecruiser if you're lucky, but usually only against bait and overwhelming odds.

EHP is fine but warp speed and tracking are overnerfed. Which is why when you get tackled you're pretty much screwed. After moving to the Proteus which is virtually a battleship (150kEHP, 1k DPS) but with the bonuses of being a cruiser hull I have killed other Battleships by getting under their guns and taking virtually zero damage. That is not a situation where battleships should be. You should be able to do some damage vs a cruiser and higher not miss every shot.

EVE is a game that attracts lots of different playstyles and there is room in EVE for most ships to perform multiple roles. Battleships were both a difficult solo class, decent small gang ship and a fleet ship since the beginning of the game but subsequent nerfs have turned them into being useful only in the latter case. That does not make them fine, it makes them broken.



Daichi Yamato wrote:
most of ur BS losses are from other battleships...

maybe BS's are fine. Maybe u suck at PvP?

Possibly, I've never claimed to be a great PvP'r. However I believe only 2 of the losses I have posted were solo battleship vs battleship and both were T1 battleships vs T2 Golems before the torpedo nerf.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#51 - 2014-02-18 23:20:28 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:

you mean like in real life, its also called support What? BS and bigger ships are just not used to PVP solo they can do PVE solo under the right circumstances, PVP is possible with support. but once tackled when solo your dead. it really doesn't matter if your in BS, carrier, super, dread or titan

Historically BS were some of the most dangerous solo ships.


Historically we lived in a cave

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#52 - 2014-02-18 23:28:09 UTC
I think a slight buff to EHP is called for in the case of battleships as cruisers are now more powerful than ever, bc's are fairly well balanced but battleships are comparatively weak and are surprisingly vulnerable to medium weapons and above.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#53 - 2014-02-18 23:31:40 UTC
and the bismark was beaten by an aircraft that put a torpedo into its rudder...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#54 - 2014-02-18 23:33:57 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I think a slight buff to EHP is called for in the case of battleships as cruisers are now more powerful than ever, bc's are fairly well balanced but battleships are comparatively weak and are surprisingly vulnerable to medium weapons and above.


maybe... i definitely support the idea of bigger plates for BS+ and Xlarge armor repair module. this maybe enough if not a small EHP buff could be possible. but that is not going to help the OP as it will only buy you a little more time if tackled alone.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#55 - 2014-02-18 23:46:55 UTC
larger plates would be a big help to the tempest, but a seriously massive help to armour scorps. ones kinda good, the others really kinda scary good.

and if theres a 3200mm plate, ppl will want an x-large shield extender. would that make shield tanking things like a cane and vindi scary strong?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2014-02-18 23:49:04 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
and the bismark was beaten by an aircraft that put a torpedo into its rudder...

You skipped the part where the Bismark fought the battlecruiser Hood and the battleship Prince of Wales, blowing up the Hood and forcing the Prince of Wales to run away...

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-02-18 23:58:54 UTC
Actually Prince of Wales remained out of range and shadowed them until another ship could take over, and Hood took a lucky hit (Amazing how often that happened against BS/BC's). The armour plan for Hood should have been OK at the range of engagement. They did slow down the Bismarck/Prinz Eugen fleet long enough for the Ark Royals teeny tiny biplanes to hit with torpedoes...
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-02-19 00:16:36 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually Prince of Wales remained out of range and shadowed them until another ship could take over, and Hood took a lucky hit (Amazing how often that happened against BS/BC's). The armour plan for Hood should have been OK at the range of engagement. They did slow down the Bismarck/Prinz Eugen fleet long enough for the Ark Royals teeny tiny biplanes to hit with torpedoes...

No. From what I recall the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen were shadowed by two cruisers which remained out of range. The Hood and Prince of Wales engaged the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen. The Hood was sunk, the Prince of Wales was so damaged that it had to withdraw.

Bismarck then lost the shadowing cruisers somehow, can't remember exactly. There was a huge search and she was spotted heading in the direction of France and sunk.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2014-02-19 00:25:43 UTC
Of course the Bismark had medium and light weapons to complement its heavy guns.

It's a shame that Eve battleships do not have this ability to compensate for zero mobility.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#60 - 2014-02-19 00:28:28 UTC
Remember Drake masses? An EHP increase is going to make people consider them again even if HMLs aren't quite as good as they used to be. Someone will find a workaround. Not to mention it's going to get really hard for a lot of Cruisers to actually fight BCs due to the fact that there's going to be a MASSIVE survivability gulf between the two, with Cruisers getting the shortest possible end of the stick- Drake vs. Caracal, the latter's going into the dump because even if it is more mobile it's tough to fit, with HAMs it has issues tracking other cruisers, and RLMLs aren't usable anymore.

I can guarantee that this will kick the variety of what you see in space in the junk.