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[Proposal] New Limited (Ltd.) Companies
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Jasmine Panzer
Ciaba Ventures
#1 - 2014-02-15 13:18:07 UTC
I'm a passionate reader of all 'carebear vs. tough guys' discussion.

Though mostly a strong supporter of the 'tough guy' side, I believe the 'carebear apologists' raise a few valid points. Namely, (1) the need to give new players more ways to 'ease into' the game's difficulty and (2) the opportunity to extend the player base, if it can be done without compromising the ruthless and complex gameplay we all love.

My proposal: introduce Limited Companies. Natural new player progression would be:

. NPC Corp
. Limited Company (Ltd.)
. Corporation (Inc.)

All ingame player 'corps' would be either one or the other, with the abbreviation always shown after the corp name. Thus we'd have corps like 'Friendly Newbie's Corner, Ltd.' and 'Goonwaffe, Inc.'.

This is how it could work:

NCP Corps remain as they are, but with a very significant increase in taxes - like up to 40-50% or so. Also, add additional high taxes to all buying and selling done by NPC Corp members.

Limited Companies (Ltds) have lower taxes than NPC Corps but still high - like 20-30% or so. Also all buying and selling will be similarly taxed. I don't mean player taxes here, but game taxes - ISK sinks. The Company may also choose to tax its members to fund itself, but that would be on top of the default game tax.

Limited Companies cannot own POS nor claim sovreignty. The may form alliances only with other Ltds.

Players in Ltds have their crimewatch safety permanently set to green. No 'yellow' or 'red' actions allowed.

Everything else remains the same as current player corporations.

So what's the advantage of an Ltd? There are two:

1) Ltds cannot declare war or be war dec'd
2) Players in Ltds cannot shoot eachother freely (so no awoxing)

Corporations (Incs) remain exactly the same as they are today.

Players may freely move between NPC Corps, Ltds and Incs, but: if they drop from an Inc (to run from a wardec, for example) they get a one week cooldown before being able to join another Inc. Yes this would also nerf 'serial awoxing' but I think it's only fair: if recruiting somebody is not to be taken lightly, so should joining a corp.


All this means:

a) if you are a new player or a casual player you stay in an Ltd in highsec. You can mine or PVE all you want. You can enjoy the game alone or - better - with like-minded friends without risking wardecs or awoxing. Sure, your ISK is nerfed but your player experience is not - you still get to do all the game activities you want except pirating and space/structure ownership. Obviously you still can be suicide ganked or bumped or scammed - you're never 100% safe in EVE.

b) if you don't want any nerfs to your ISK or POS/sovreignity you join an Inc., fully accepting all the risks that come with it. And hopefully not whining about it anymore! :) Also, the current 'pirates that hide in NPC corps' will probably have to take some additional risks too, which I'm sure they don't mind at all.


Advantages for 'carebears':
- A bit more safety from the more experienced/high SP players
- The ability to form a 'carefree' group without having to triple-check new recruits
- For aspiring CEOs, the opportunity to develop their 'soft skills' (group management, keeping everybody engaged, etc.) without having to also worry about more experienced players giving you a hard time. They can then 'upgrade' to leading an Inc when they feel they're ready for the up-scale risk/reward.

Advantages for the 'tough guys':
- Nobody will accuse you of 'griefing newbies' anymore! And let's face it, all tears are nice but true helpless newbie tears aren't that tasty - better to focus on the guys that think they're so good at this game but really are not... Twisted
- I'd expect many more players joining Incs because of the ISK 'greed', so: many more wardecs! Just think about Incursion runners for example... either they stop making ridiculous money or they put their shiny ships to good PVP use!

It would be like the often proposed 'nerf highsec to the ground', only better imho: highsec is nerfed only if you don't want to engage in pvp combat. On the other hand if you are willing to risk something, highsec becomes a high risk/high reward player interaction heaven!

At the same time, we could bring more people into the game who:
- don't imbalance the economy because their ISK is nerfed
- can always be ganked, bumped, scammed and interacted with in all ways except the current two ways that are honestly difficult for a true newbie to defend against (war decs and awoxing)
- have a strong incentive (ISK) to gradually become less carebear and more badass EVE player


If I got this right, I'm pretty sure both 'tough guys' and 'real newbies' could support the idea. I also suspect professional carebears' (meaning: risk-adverse experienced players 99% focussed on ISK-making) will probably not. As a way to make this more viable avoiding 'carebear riots' Big smile, CCP could introduce the NPC and Ltd nerfs gradually, like 20% taxes initially, 30% after 3 months or so etc., to give ISK-makers time to better adapt and also have fun manipulating the economic side of things (which I also consider a great form of PVP interaction).


Two final words:

1) Apologies if this has been suggested before, I did do some searching but maybe missed it
2) I'm sure I also missed a ton of possible drawbacks and loopholes... if you like the general concept, any ideas to tweak or improve it would be greatly appreciated
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#2 - 2014-02-18 14:17:43 UTC
This would enable gazillions of risk-averse carebears to join wardec-immune corps, rat, mission, mine, manufacture and trade to their hearts' content (thus affecting the rest of the game) and only have to worry about being ganked or awoxed. Yeah, gonna say this is a terrible idea.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-02-18 14:25:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Benny Ohu
admiral root wrote:
This would enable gazillions of risk-averse carebears to join wardec-immune corps, rat, mission, mine, manufacture and trade to their hearts' content (thus affecting the rest of the game) and only have to worry about being ganked or awoxed. Yeah, gonna say this is a terrible idea.

the concept's not bad i reckon. OP's suggesting creating an actual meaningful downside to being in npc or limited corp. and a limited corp'd just be a chatroom and a logo which i have no problem with

... but the safety shouldn't be stuck on green (the safety IS the idiotproof switch, you don't need to idiotproof it again)

other problems are that mined ore should be taxed somehow and 40-50% is way too high a tax

e: oh except the problem that market taxes are bypassed by alts in full corps but w/e i like the concept if not the execution
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-02-18 14:26:35 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
(the safety IS the idiotproof switch, you don't need to idiotproof it again)


you haven't met many carebears, have you benny?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2014-02-18 20:52:31 UTC

Problems with this proposal:

1.) Safety switch set permanently to green. So, by joining an LTD, characters are unable to commit a suspect or criminal action. Frankly, there is no good reason to discourage players from doing these actions.

2.) Cannot be wardecced. Players in highsec may mine, manufacture, mission, and haul items around. I believe that their operations should absolutely be hinder-able by player actions (Suicide ganking, wardecs, etc). You need some real drawbacks if you're going to have more wardec immune corps. Frankly, we first need taxes to be set for refining, sales, bounties, LPs, and S&I lines for all corps. Then, simply set NPC corp taxes to 10-20%, and let player corps set their own taxes. After that, we don't need Ltd's...

3.) Nothing deployed in space: If you can't wardec the corp, they shouldn't be able to deploy any objects in space (for corp). POS are the obvious, but no POCO's, no Anchorable cans or bubbles, etc. They can launch items for individuals, but not for ohters.

4.) Why? At the end of the day, I don't see the need for this half-step. Have people gimped in NPC corps, and let them take the step into player corps as they desire. It isn't hard to do a background check on an applicant, and it isn't unreasonable to expect corps to do such a thing. I see no reason to create these risk-free institutions.

Jasmine Panzer
Ciaba Ventures
#6 - 2014-02-19 00:36:20 UTC
Thanks to all for your feedback.

First, I'd like to further clarify my main objective, which is to make highsec a MORE 'dangerous' place, with more player conflict.

The whole LTD idea is to address what, in my opinion, is the only reasonable objection to this plan: that it would be a bit too difficult for the new players.

Almost all arguments for the opposite, i.e. 'make highsec safer', fall into just two categories:

1) people should have the 'right' to carebear in peace if they so wish
2) the game is still too hard for newbies

Sadly, I often hear and read argument #2 (which is reasonable) used as an excuse to support argument #1, which imho is bullshit and would destroy what makes EVE such an outstanding game.

So I tried to come up with a reasonable solution to argument #2: Limited Companies! Good for newbros, bad (I hope) for 'veteran carebears' (because of the severe nerf to ISK).


Now I'll try to address the points you all made.
Jasmine Panzer
Ciaba Ventures
#7 - 2014-02-19 00:42:40 UTC
admiral root wrote:
This would enable gazillions of risk-averse carebears to join wardec-immune corps, rat, mission, mine, manufacture and trade to their hearts' content (thus affecting the rest of the game) and only have to worry about being ganked or awoxed. Yeah, gonna say this is a terrible idea.


Yes, you may be right and that would be a terrible outcome!

But how many carebears do you know that would be willing to give up 30% or more of their income? Carebearing is all about isk! Again, just think of incursion runners for a moment.

Also: they are already doing that! By staying in npc corps or evading wardecs, with no significant downside. In my scenario, the downside for 'hiding' would be a SEVERE hit to isk.
Jasmine Panzer
Ciaba Ventures
#8 - 2014-02-19 00:53:33 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:


... but the safety shouldn't be stuck on green (the safety IS the idiotproof switch, you don't need to idiotproof it again)

other problems are that mined ore should be taxed somehow and 40-50% is way too high a tax

e: oh except the problem that market taxes are bypassed by alts in full corps but w/e i like the concept if not the execution


Safety being green was an idea to make Ltds unusuable by 'carebeary pirates'. It wasnt meant as idiotproofing.

No need to tax mined ore if you heavily tax the SALE of the ore! Twisted And 50% is reasonable for the protection you get! Just think of civilian modules: they're starter gear, they're functional and yes they're terrible compared to the 'real stuff'. So are Ltds: they work, ok to start out, but SHOULD be a terrible option for experienced players!

And yes you're right some further mechanic would be needed to not bypass the taxes. For example disabling direct trade and heavily taxing contracts, unless they're intra-ltd.
Jasmine Panzer
Ciaba Ventures
#9 - 2014-02-19 01:16:30 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Problems with this proposal:

1.) Safety switch set permanently to green. So, by joining an LTD, characters are unable to commit a suspect or criminal action. Frankly, there is no good reason to discourage players from doing these actions.

2.) Cannot be wardecced. Players in highsec may mine, manufacture, mission, and haul items around. I believe that their operations should absolutely be hinder-able by player actions (Suicide ganking, wardecs, etc). You need some real drawbacks if you're going to have more wardec immune corps. Frankly, we first need taxes to be set for refining, sales, bounties, LPs, and S&I lines for all corps. Then, simply set NPC corp taxes to 10-20%, and let player corps set their own taxes. After that, we don't need Ltd's...

3.) Nothing deployed in space: If you can't wardec the corp, they shouldn't be able to deploy any objects in space (for corp). POS are the obvious, but no POCO's, no Anchorable cans or bubbles, etc. They can launch items for individuals, but not for ohters.

4.) Why? At the end of the day, I don't see the need for this half-step. Have people gimped in NPC corps, and let them take the step into player corps as they desire. It isn't hard to do a background check on an applicant, and it isn't unreasonable to expect corps to do such a thing. I see no reason to create these risk-free institutions.




1) see my reply to Benny: ltds should be unusable by pirates/gankers

2) see my reply to Benny: taxing all forms of asset sale or transfer should do the trick and it's more simple! Got millions of lps? Good luck selling the lp store items! But If there still are loopholes, then yes tax everything! Thats my point too.

3) 100% agree, pos was an example. Yes, surely also pocos and all

4) Personally I would agree with you. But many people seem to be opposed to nerfing npc corps. Hell, even among current CSM some are discussing removing non-consensual wardecs, for example! You're all for a more dangerous highsec, I am too, many are not. The Ltd idea is an attempt to find a common ground.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2014-02-19 17:57:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
1.) I understand why you want to prevent "suicide gankers" from hiding in your non-wardeccable institutes. However, setting up a institutes that prevent players from engaging in ship to ship combat outside of extreme circumstances is simply not acceptable. We want players to attempt ship PvP from time to time, and your new entity almost forbids it. NO WAY.

2.) Expanding the streams taxable by a corp offers more interesting corp management possibilities. And taxing NPC corps 10-20% on their income streams is generally enough to get players into Player corps. Those that don't want to deal with wardecs or potential AWOXing can pay the NPC corp tax and deal with it. I really don't see the need for your Ltds.

4.) To be frank, I'm not certain we need to increase the bounty tax on non-wardeccable corps more. We simply need to add similar taxes to all revenue streams and deny them the ability to use any anchorable object that cannot be immediately legally attacked.

To be frank, wardecs are easily avoidable. So creating non-wardeccable corps doesn't accomplish much other than create bonafide safe havens beyond NPC corps. Why? Your proposal does NOTHING to make a vulnerable highsec population.

Look at it this way, Why do people stay in their corps when they are wardecced? Dropping corp takes no time. Hell, disbanding a corp and reforming it is trivial. So why do people stay in a corp and actually fight?

The answer is generally to defend assets in space. As such, to have a more "violent" highsec, we need players to put more vulnerable assets in space. There needs to be concrete benefits to putting these vulnerable assets in space, and any changes to the game should encourage players to utilize these assets.

Look at T2 Production. To actually participate in this level of production, you need access to copy slots. The limited number of copy slots available in highsec has resulted in 30-60 day queues on every line. This results in any serious highsec producer to operate a POS. These are nice, vulnerable assets, often with half a billion in potential loot for anyone coming along wanting to attack it. This is a GOOD thing.

Look at Manufacturing. There are more manufacturing lines in the Forge Region than in all the nullsec stations combined. The point, unlike Copy and ME Research lines, MFG lines are abundantly available in highsec. Furthermore, utilizing these lines costs 333 isk / hr. A POS uses 10, 20, or 40 fuel blocks an hour for a Small, Medium, or Large POS, with an operating expense of roughly 150,000 - 600,000 isk / hr. You would need to run between 500-2000 lines on the POS in order to justify using the POS just for MFG. A POS will never have that many lines, not to mention having lines at the POS is extraordinarily dangerous. With ME, PE, Copying, and invention activities, the potentially valuable BPO's you utilize are almost always safely stored in a corporate office in System (which is an additional cost). With MFG jobs, you have to put the build materials in the POS, which makes them vulnerable to attack. Essentially, while in highsec you can use a POS to manufacture, there is rarely a good reason to. This is a BAD thing.

Look at Refining. In nullsec, it is very difficult to get perfect refine, even with excellent skills and implants. In Highsec, it is trivially easy. And while you can refine with a POS, the process is not instantaneous, nor low waste, making it incomparable to highsec station refining.

The solution to making highsec more dangerous, is not to create more "safe havens", but to simply encourage people to take risks. Have them want to utilize structures that increase their bottom line, while being vulnerable to attack via wardec and require some level of defense.

Things that should be done:

For Miners:
  • Reduce Station Refining: Turn station refining into a line-job, and reduce refining to 90% yield when NOT refining in a POS-like structure. Increase POS refining arrays to have the best yield.
  • Hidden Belts: Create a POS Asteroid Scanning Array. Access it, and it creates an expedition entry (in system ideally) for you to warp to and mine some newly spawned asteroids.

    • For Manufacturers:
  • Increase MFG, PE, ME, and Copying line costs from 333 isk/hr to 33,300 isk / hr. Then manufacturing in a POS is cheaper than manufacturing in a Station. Yes, this means you'll have to pay 50k isk more for that 200mm autocannon II, or an extra million on your t2 cruisers. Industrialists will simply pass on the cost to all end users. But it makes using a POS make more sense.

    • For Haulers:
  • Create Dynamic Concord Timers: A mechanic that potentially increases the concord response time when in a Corp.

    • For Traders:
  • Initiate a corporate tax on sell orders, with the NPC tax rate of 10-20%.

    • For Missioners:
  • An in-space agent, allowing them to move away from mission hubs?

    • Now, all highsec players will benefit from being in a player corp. Structures give them a reason to defend themselves from an aggressive wardec! They can still dodge wars if they desire, or they can utilize mercenaries and allies to defend themselves. The result is more content, more conflict, and a better game.

    Your Ltds, which preventing players from utilizing these tools results in less reasons for players to fight. Do you not see why limiting utilization of these items as terrible for the game?
    Jasmine Panzer
    Ciaba Ventures
    #11 - 2014-02-20 01:33:48 UTC
    These are actually all great ideas!

    I do hope someone in CSM will present them to CCP.

    Only thing I'm not convinced is the dynamic concord mechanic. I read your post. I like the NPC corp nerf, but not sure about the corp sec status mechanic. How about making it even more nasty: if you want a faster concord, you pay for it!

    Still a Corp decision. You get, say 3-4 levels of protection, like ship insurance. Basic is free, others cost more up to say 50-100 mil per player per week. Yeah I know thats high but many people can afford that so it would be a kind of status symbol!

    About my Ltd idea, yeah maybe you guys are right. But I still think inexperienced dudes could use some kind of 'starter mode' group mechanic. Even if, in the end, its just a reserved chat channel and a common name of sorts (while still 'technically' being treated as in an npc corp).
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #12 - 2014-02-20 08:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
    NPC corps are by their very nature, limited corps. You cannot awox (without punishment) and you cannot own sov. So this is really not needed and goes against player driven content.

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.