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FOR THE FEDERATION !!!

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2014-02-18 08:13:17 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:
Those who are subjects to Corporate-Slavism are in most cases highly unlikely to realize the predicament of their situation. I suppose one who is thoroughly ingrained within the Corporate State system could live a fairly meaningful, if not blissfully ignorant existence for the most part.

The problem however is in the risk of this ideology spreading, planet by planet, system by system. Only the individual freedom which a just society can bring, can truly break the chains.

For now, I believe that we can all agree to disagree.


We can certainly agree that you're wrong, if you like?

Since your argument appears to be predicated on the theory that anyone who knows less than you is ignorant and anyone who knows more than you is blinded by the system, further discussion seems fruitless.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Temba Ronin
#42 - 2014-02-18 08:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Temba Ronin
Noden save your breath, you are arguing valid points about how a corporate state makes virtual slaves of the average citizens of the New Eden Cluster with billionaire Capsuleer corporatists. All of us are beneficiaries of corporate culture so do not be surprised if most capsuleers can not see beyond their own benefit.

When those of us who no longer need fear death are routinely spending more in a single sub-capital ship purchase then most baseliners will ever earn in their entire single lifetime, it is not a shock that many capsuleers are no longer even aware that they are not at all representative of the culture they choose to fight for in the militia or verbally defend here in IGS.

Some of us remember, the value of liberty, freedom, and democracy for the vast baseliner populace of the New Eden Cluster. We are truly fortunate to be Gallente. I salute your decision to personally stand and fight the avowed enemies of liberty, freedom, and democracy.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#43 - 2014-02-18 14:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Scherezad
Double post, my apologies.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#44 - 2014-02-18 14:59:18 UTC
I personally rather think that such casual use of the term 'slave' is insuling to those who actually are so and wish for freedom, or to those who were once so and have since escaped it. Valuing freedom includes empathy for those who have none, and not minimizing their state of affairs.

That doesn't have any bearing on the discussion, though.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#45 - 2014-02-18 15:07:41 UTC
I think at this point we've got sufficient grounds to conclude that we're dealing with the kind of bigot who isn't willing to adjust his opinions in the face of reasonable arguments to the contrary. You get fifteen of them to the ISK these days.

In any event, what does it matter? The Caldari are not slaves - we know it, and so does anybody who truly understands what real slavery is. Reality does not care about any of our opinions and if Vorpalstar here wishes to believe something that's contrary to reality... well, he's not the first to do so, nor will he be the last.

Let's not waste the calories, so ka?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Sadie Veerin
#46 - 2014-02-18 15:12:54 UTC
Initially, I thought it was merely lazy responses that caused him to respond the way he did. Then, I thought maybe it was just lack of forethought. But now, I agree, there is no point in continuing this if he can't articulate a position able to be responded to.
Agiri Falken
Akagi Initiative
#47 - 2014-02-18 15:25:25 UTC
Self Important Rant 332591
Canned Response 2
Expected Result 66
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2014-02-18 16:18:59 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Noden save your breath, you are arguing valid points about how a corporate state makes virtual slaves of the average citizens of the New Eden Cluster with billionaire Capsuleer corporatists. All of us are beneficiaries of corporate culture so do not be surprised if most capsuleers can not see beyond their own benefit.

When those of us who no longer need fear death are routinely spending more in a single sub-capital ship purchase then most baseliners will ever earn in their entire single lifetime, it is not a shock that many capsuleers are no longer even aware that they are not at all representative of the culture they choose to fight for in the militia or verbally defend here in IGS.

Some of us remember, the value of liberty, freedom, and democracy for the vast baseliner populace of the New Eden Cluster. We are truly fortunate to be Gallente. I salute your decision to personally stand and fight the avowed enemies of liberty, freedom, and democracy.


First of all, just because something has the word 'Corporate' in it, that doesn't mean it falls under the purview of the Caldari State, it's laws and customs, usages and traditions. You can't amalgamate everything in the cluster that uses that word and blame the State for it, or believe the State operates using it.

Secondly, when considering the way the State operates, it is useless to do so when you are both ignorant of the macro social constructs that inform the application of the few pieces of actual law that you remember/understand and the narrower societal planning that cause them to arise. To put it into terms you (might) understand, you are attempting to judge an illegal parking case solely using one of the articles of Federation and ignoring local and Federal legislation directly pertaining.

Thirdly, any time you find yourself shooting a man and burning his home to the ground in order to free him from a system he wholeheartedly supports THE SIMPLEST EXPLANATION IS THAT YOU ARE THE ONE IN THE WRONG.

In summary - run your space any way you care to, we do not care. What we take exception to is when you choose to exercise your Liberty and Freedom by coming into our space and trying to take ours away from us. That you cannot understand the inherent irony of your behaviour would be the choicest jest in the cosmos if it weren't the cause of so much tragedy.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#49 - 2014-02-18 16:25:27 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
I personally rather think that such casual use of the term 'slave' is insuling to those who actually are so and wish for freedom, or to those who were once so and have since escaped it. Valuing freedom includes empathy for those who have none, and not minimizing their state of affairs.

That doesn't have any bearing on the discussion, though.



Shhh, suuolo. You've never understood your role in proceedings like these, have you? You're supposed to tell him that you've come to take his Freedom because you hate Liberty and that you won't stop until you've spread the Corporate System across the whole of known space.

For colour you are then supposed to inform him that 'Resistance is Futile' or something similar.

By asking him questions that he is supposed to think about, rather than simply providing him with sound bites he can respond to using autonomic functions you are doing nothing more than confusing him and making him irritable. At all costs you should avoid acting in any way that resembles a human being, since he then has to consider that actions he takes in support of intangible and poorly defined concepts which impact a healthy and happy human being come with actual ethical and moral costs.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Noden Vorpalstar
The Knights of Polaris
#50 - 2014-02-18 16:26:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Noden Vorpalstar
Sadie Veerin wrote:
Initially, I thought it was merely lazy responses that caused him to respond the way he did. Then, I thought maybe it was just lack of forethought. But now, I agree, there is no point in continuing this if he can't articulate a position able to be responded to.


I believe I articulated my position quiet well from the beginning. However I realized I am merely throwing myself at the feet of the ravenous dogs of the State and their supporters.

I maintain my position that freedom must not be restricted by slavism of any type, and The Gallente Federation represents the last best hope for humankind against those who would seek to destroy that freedom.

Public Channel:  Polaris-Public Roleplaying Channel:  Gallente Lounge

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2014-02-18 16:37:07 UTC
It's okay, Noden, we've always found that launchers reach the ears of that certain oppressive class of Gallente warmonger far better than words.

Fortunately we're fluent in both.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#52 - 2014-02-18 17:06:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:

I maintain my position that freedom must not be restricted by slavism of any type, and The Gallente Federation represents the last best hope for humankind against those who would seek to destroy that freedom.


Could you kindly define the term 'Freedom' in the sense that you keep using the word? What do you constitute as 'Freedom' in the Federation that we do not enjoy in the State? or that of our employees in the contested regions?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Sadie Veerin
#53 - 2014-02-18 17:12:43 UTC
Noden Vorpalstar wrote:

I believe I articulated my position quiet well from the beginning. However I realized I am merely throwing myself at the feet of the ravenous dogs of the State and their supporters.

I maintain my position that freedom must not be restricted by slavism of any type, and The Gallente Federation represents the last best hope for humankind against those who would seek to destroy that freedom.


You failed to defend your invention of the term "corporate-slavism" or define it beyond simply implying that being employed by one of our corporations is somehow akin to slavery. You restated your opinion without providing evidence, clear definition, argument, or justification. This is not articulating a position, it is mounting a soapbox - ineffectively, I might add.

A couple people here tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you to clarify yourself instead of assuming you are merely shouting for the sake of being heard. We were mistaken for doing so.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-02-18 17:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
You ever notice how it's the Caldari who've tended to talk about rights, freedoms and liberties more often than the Fed capsuleers recently? Specifically, how we tend to discuss them in positive terms? Meanwhile I've seen a lot of Federation loyalists who are by and large dead-set opposed to our right to interpret those rights, freedoms and liberties in our own way.

These are ideals that are supposedly the demesne of the Federation, and yet if you did a statistical analysis of frequency and tone, I'd bet a Navy-Issue Scorpion that you'd find that Caldari pilots on the IGS have spoken of freedom and liberties more frequently and more positively over the last several years.

It's odd how we share those virtues with our old foe; clearly the problem is that we've embraced them in the wrong way, namely that we embrace them not out of principle, but because they're practical.

A free citizen with an education and healthcare who is enfranchised in the collective good of their society is generally a happier and more productive citizen - this much is an objective fact. The megacorporations profit more from an educated and enthusiastic employee than from a downtrodden and reluctant menial laborer.

In principle. None of the civilisations in New Eden quite live up to our own ideals 100% of the time, of course, and I've seen my fair share of strikes and protests to know that some of our citizens have it pretty bad. The point is that that's not what we're about, any more than the Federation is about the conditions that give rise to those horrible drug-rotten Favelas I've seen on some of their planets. If you want a picture of human misery you need look no further than some of those slums. At least in the State, every citizen has a bunk, a meal and clean clothes from a vending machine every day, even if they have nothing else.

The point is that if, in the name of the Federation, you're going to accuse some of the megacorporations of keeping their employees in slave-like conditions, then you need to look at some of your own streets and the half-naked starving kids sleeping in cardboard boxes and prostituting themselves for Crash who call those streets home. Is that The Gallentean Dream? I wouldn't be so cruel as to say so, and thus will not accept any Gallentean telling me that our State's ideals are to be found in its failures.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Temba Ronin
#55 - 2014-02-18 18:32:54 UTC
I submit these thoughts for your consideration. Think of these two prominent Caldari, Tibus Heth & Otro Gariushi.

Think about the conditions from which they made their climb to infamy in one case and fame in the other.

Of course the flag waving defenders of all things Caldari want to not speak about Tibus Heth and instead play the role of victim after losing a fight they started.

Tibus Heth rose to power because so many of our Caldari cousins live in crushing poverty shackled to the corporate yoke of the so called "State". Tibus Heth is a creation of the corporate state. Where then are his IGS defenders?

The hate filled bigoted monster Tibus Heth eventually became even too toxic for the cesspool of heartless corporate governance that spawned him.

Not every corporation is evil. Not every corporation is good. Extremists from both points of view miss the bigger picture. To blindly trust corporate leadership that presides over an unfair system that has billions trapped in the dungeons of poverty is the type of fool hearty citizenship that allows a Tibus Heth type access to the levers of power. Have you learned nothing?

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#56 - 2014-02-18 18:47:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Crushing poverty? I believe thats a bit of an overstatement, and given the focus was heavily mismanaged worlds of Caldari Constructions its improper to use them as the standard for the overall situation within the State.

It wasn't 'crushing poverty' that led to the rise of Heth, it was the betrayal of many Caldari ideals within the system that led to outrage. Mainly the laxing of the States founding ideals of Meritocracy and placement of value on those who deserve rather than those who were simply related to a Corporate CEO and mid-level manager.

It was Nepotism Mr. Ronin, more so than poverty that led to Heth's rise and his promise of restoring our nation to those ideals. At the time, to the average onlooker, Tibus Heth embodied that very idea. A factory worker rising to the top. The circumstances were obviously suspicious, but then again the masses didn't care, they were captivated.

I won't deny that there was poverty, its in every nation in New Eden, and it helps bed discontented ideals, but its a platform more so than the cause.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Temba Ronin
#57 - 2014-02-18 18:53:49 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Crushing poverty? I believe thats a bit of an overstatement, and given the focus was heavily mismanaged worlds of Caldari Constructions its improper to use them as the standard for the overall situation within the State.

It wasn't 'crushing poverty' that led to the rise of Heth, it was the betrayal of many Caldari ideals within the system that led to outrage. Mainly the laxing of the States founding ideals of Meritocracy and placement of value on those who deserve rather than those who were simply related to a Corporate CEO and mid-level manager.

It was Nepotism Mr. Ronin, more so than poverty that led to Heth's rise and his promise of restoring our nation to those ideals. At the time, to the average onlooker, Tibus Heth embodied that very idea. A factory worker rising to the top. The circumstances were obviously suspicious, but then again the masses didn't care, they were captivated.

I won't deny that there was poverty, its in every nation in New Eden, and it helps bed discontented ideals, but its a platform more so than the cause.
The Caldari masses were not merely captivated they were and are captives of a failing system.

You speak of poverty in the past tense, are you putting forth the position that poverty no longer exists in the Caldari state?

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2014-02-18 18:57:42 UTC
Ah, yes. Tibus Heth.

First of all, we won that fight. We had to do some fairly extreme things and bear some very costly consequences to do so, but Tibus Heth burned out the worst excesses of Corporate nepotism, regained us access to Home and was excised from the life of the State when his excesses grew to be too much to bear.

Best of all, Tibus Heth was judged and removed by his own peers - the Caldari People.

Any consequences the Federation had to bear regarding it's ill-advised attempt to seize the Homeworld of a sovereign people and hold it from them are entirely THEIRS to do so.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Temba Ronin
#59 - 2014-02-18 18:59:15 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
You ever notice how it's the Caldari who've tended to talk about rights, freedoms and liberties more often than the Fed capsuleers recently? Specifically, how we tend to discuss them in positive terms? Meanwhile I've seen a lot of Federation loyalists who are by and large dead-set opposed to our right to interpret those rights, freedoms and liberties in our own way.

These are ideals that are supposedly the demesne of the Federation, and yet if you did a statistical analysis of frequency and tone, I'd bet a Navy-Issue Scorpion that you'd find that Caldari pilots on the IGS have spoken of freedom and liberties more frequently and more positively over the last several years.

It's odd how we share those virtues with our old foe; clearly the problem is that we've embraced them in the wrong way, namely that we embrace them not out of principle, but because they're practical.

A free citizen with an education and healthcare who is enfranchised in the collective good of their society is generally a happier and more productive citizen - this much is an objective fact. The megacorporations profit more from an educated and enthusiastic employee than from a downtrodden and reluctant menial laborer.

In principle. None of the civilisations in New Eden quite live up to our own ideals 100% of the time, of course, and I've seen my fair share of strikes and protests to know that some of our citizens have it pretty bad. The point is that that's not what we're about, any more than the Federation is about the conditions that give rise to those horrible drug-rotten Favelas I've seen on some of their planets. If you want a picture of human misery you need look no further than some of those slums. At least in the State, every citizen has a bunk, a meal and clean clothes from a vending machine every day, even if they have nothing else.

The point is that if, in the name of the Federation, you're going to accuse some of the megacorporations of keeping their employees in slave-like conditions, then you need to look at some of your own streets and the half-naked starving kids sleeping in cardboard boxes and prostituting themselves for Crash who call those streets home. Is that The Gallentean Dream? I wouldn't be so cruel as to say so, and thus will not accept any Gallentean telling me that our State's ideals are to be found in its failures.
It is the current fashion for Caldari here on IGS to give lip service to freedom and liberty. Talk is cheap, let's look at your actions, you ally with the amarr. Good luck convincing anyone with your hollow words when your actions are steeped in villainy.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!

Erica Dusette
Division 13
#60 - 2014-02-18 19:01:09 UTC
You all are looking too far into things and making massive generalizations.

Pry your hands off your neocoms for a bit, forget politics, forget debates and go murder someone, shoot something or indulge in a tasty caramel synth-latte like me. It's tough being a corporate-slave you know, I imagine the Gallente need similar breaks from their own perversions too.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

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