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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#481 - 2014-02-18 11:42:39 UTC
How about a penalty for failing to properly account for your Margin Trading. If you place a Margin Order and do not have the ISK to back it up thereby failing during the transaction you lose one level of trained Margin Trading skill. This is similar to T3 ship when you fail to keep it alive you lose the skill to fly it. If you fail 5 orders the skill is 'locked out' till (New skill) 'Remedial check book balancing' is trained.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#482 - 2014-02-18 11:49:56 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
How about a penalty for failing to properly account for your Margin Trading. If you place a Margin Order and do not have the ISK to back it up thereby failing during the transaction you lose one level of trained Margin Trading skill. This is similar to T3 ship when you fail to keep it alive you lose the skill to fly it. If you fail 5 orders the skill is 'locked out' till (New skill) 'Remedial check book balancing' is trained.


How about, "No"?
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#483 - 2014-02-18 12:01:33 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
How about a penalty for failing to properly account for your Margin Trading. If you place a Margin Order and do not have the ISK to back it up thereby failing during the transaction you lose one level of trained Margin Trading skill. This is similar to T3 ship when you fail to keep it alive you lose the skill to fly it. If you fail 5 orders the skill is 'locked out' till (New skill) 'Remedial check book balancing' is trained.


How about, "No"?

I have been able to float a couple hundred billion worth of margin backed orders for over a year with none failing (Except when I took a month off for travel). I expected there was something wrong with my idea, as I just though of it as I read the thread and wrote it, but could you be more specific than just 'NO'.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#484 - 2014-02-18 12:24:40 UTC
Read the post I wrote at the end of page 24.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#485 - 2014-02-18 12:34:29 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Read the post I wrote at the end of page 24.

The biomass comment? I assume training for 18 to 25 days is a bit of punishment that a scammer would not go through, and preventing the skill loss a fitting reward for legitimate marketers.

Doesn't matter anyways, there will always be a scam that's at the top of the list for forum tears, the only problem I have with the false orders is the mess it made of my EVE-HQ market and assets (eve-central) query with the outliers. Most of them can be identified and quickly removed leaving me with reliable data; but I still understand how a burgeoning market toon could be disheartened by a 'to good to be true' buy and sell.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#486 - 2014-02-18 13:20:43 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
The biomass comment? I assume training for 18 to 25 days is a bit of punishment that a scammer would not go through, and preventing the skill loss a fitting reward for legitimate marketers.

Doesn't matter anyways, there will always be a scam that's at the top of the list for forum tears, the only problem I have with the false orders is the mess it made of my EVE-HQ market and assets (eve-central) query with the outliers. Most of them can be identified and quickly removed leaving me with reliable data; but I still understand how a burgeoning market toon could be disheartened by a 'to good to be true' buy and sell.


This change would essentially make the skill worthless for all of its legitimate users (this is, by the way, the vast majority of people using the skill). Getting blown up in a T3 is a far more predictable circumstance than losing weeks of skill training because of the vagaries of the market. Furthermore, it's a punishment which doesn't come anywhere close to being on equal ground with the supposed harm to the seller. Yes, I understand that a handful of people get scammed into buying stuff at massively marked-up prices. But the most common situation where a Margin Trading order fails is not because of that scam. It's just because the trader honestly didn't have enough to fill the order, and the seller can just go on and sell to the next guy because he didn't buy the items at an inflated price. So essentially what you're arguing is that the vast majority of Margin Trading users should have to pay an exorbitant price just so a tiny minority might be disinclined to set up failing buy orders. It's a prima facie stupid "solution."
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#487 - 2014-02-18 13:28:13 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
The biomass comment? I assume training for 18 to 25 days is a bit of punishment that a scammer would not go through, and preventing the skill loss a fitting reward for legitimate marketers.

Doesn't matter anyways, there will always be a scam that's at the top of the list for forum tears, the only problem I have with the false orders is the mess it made of my EVE-HQ market and assets (eve-central) query with the outliers. Most of them can be identified and quickly removed leaving me with reliable data; but I still understand how a burgeoning market toon could be disheartened by a 'to good to be true' buy and sell.


This change would essentially make the skill worthless for all of its legitimate users (this is, by the way, the vast majority of people using the skill). Getting blown up in a T3 is a far more predictable circumstance than losing weeks of skill training because of the vagaries of the market. Furthermore, it's a punishment which doesn't come anywhere close to being on equal ground with the supposed harm to the seller. Yes, I understand that a handful of people get scammed into buying stuff at massively marked-up prices. But the most common situation where a Margin Trading order fails is not because of that scam. It's just because the trader honestly didn't have enough to fill the order, and the seller can just go on and sell to the next guy because he didn't buy the items at an inflated price. So essentially what you're arguing is that the vast majority of Margin Trading users should have to pay an exorbitant price just so a tiny minority might be disinclined to set up failing buy orders. It's a prima facie stupid "solution."

Though I would not go so far as to say it's 'Stupid' I can see how you think this would adversely effect the Traders that are playing it really close to the edge. My idea was not to punish traders but to take the possible reward away from scammers. (And possibly bring some reality back to my downloaded data).

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#488 - 2014-02-18 13:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Goldiiee wrote:
Though I would not go so far as to say it's 'Stupid' I can see how you think this would adversely effect the Traders that are playing it really close to the edge. My idea was not to punish traders but to take the possible reward away from scammers. (And possibly bring some reality back to my downloaded data).


Well, unless you can figure out some way of differentiating between scammers and non-scammers when it comes time for the punishment to be doled out, this change would be punishing loads of legit people. I don't see how anybody could consider your suggestion workable, unless they don't really give a crap about traders in general. I can see how the idea might pick up steam, though, because a lot of people are under the illusion that Margin Trading only exists to allow people to run this scam. It's one of the most boneheaded complaints I routinely see in EVE, and it just won't die because it's largely based on total ignorance and lack of reason.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#489 - 2014-02-18 13:38:32 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
How about a penalty for failing to properly account for your Margin Trading. If you place a Margin Order and do not have the ISK to back it up thereby failing during the transaction you lose one level of trained Margin Trading skill. This is similar to T3 ship when you fail to keep it alive you lose the skill to fly it. If you fail 5 orders the skill is 'locked out' till (New skill) 'Remedial check book balancing' is trained.


How about people that get burned by the margin trading "scam" actually do some research instead of getting burned from blindly plugging in numbers suggested by their 3rd party trading app?

Margin "scams" are hilariously easy to detect if you spend 5 seconds researching the product you're trading.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#490 - 2014-02-18 13:50:08 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Though I would not go so far as to say it's 'Stupid' I can see how you think this would adversely effect the Traders that are playing it really close to the edge. My idea was not to punish traders but to take the possible reward away from scammers. (And possibly bring some reality back to my downloaded data).


Well, unless you can figure out some way of differentiating between scammers and non-scammers when it comes time for the punishment to be doled out, this change would be punishing loads of legit people. I don't see how anybody could consider your suggestion workable, unless they don't really give a crap about traders in general. I can see how the idea might pick up steam, though, because a lot of people are under the illusion that Margin Trading only exists to allow people to run this scam. It's one of the most boneheaded complaints I routinely see in EVE, and it just won't die because it's largely based on total ignorance and lack of reason.

I agree, many people would love to see it removed, personally I can't imagine getting to where I am now without the 'Fudge Factor' Margin Trading afforded me at the start, and removing it will make a tedious career path even more difficult. The effect of scamming on the market is negligibly minor at best when considering the whole, and the health of the market is in no small part due to the additional Double Virtual currency available through margin trades.

So how do we guarantee a 'Contract to buy' without actually making good on that 'Contract' beforehand? No answer needed just typing (Thinking) out loud.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#491 - 2014-02-18 13:55:27 UTC
Sentamon wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
How about a penalty for failing to properly account for your Margin Trading. If you place a Margin Order and do not have the ISK to back it up thereby failing during the transaction you lose one level of trained Margin Trading skill. This is similar to T3 ship when you fail to keep it alive you lose the skill to fly it. If you fail 5 orders the skill is 'locked out' till (New skill) 'Remedial check book balancing' is trained.


How about people that get burned by the margin trading "scam" actually do some research instead of getting burned from blindly plugging in numbers suggested by their 3rd party trading app?

Margin "scams" are hilariously easy to detect if you spend 5 seconds researching the product you're trading.

Margin scams don't (Or shouldn't) effect traders, they only effect the 'Get rich quick' players. Anyone that spends more than 5 minutes buying and selling as a 'For profit' exercise knows that it's all long haul, and quick ISK is a scam.

Like I said, the only annoyance to me is the unreliable data it creates in the market.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#492 - 2014-02-18 15:51:49 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:


So how do we guarantee a 'Contract to buy' without actually making good on that 'Contract' beforehand? No answer needed just typing (Thinking) out loud.


As I said a page ago, allow a prospective seller to convert the buy order (or a portion of it) into a contract- this subtracts the full amount (not just the escrow) and locks it into the contract, meaning the funds are now guaranteed at the point of contract creation.

Margin scams do affect traders who operate in low-volume niches and there's no reason there can't be valid trade in those niches. The whole insidiousness of the scam is there's no way to tell whether it's genuine or not (if someone wants to pay that much for an officer mod, why not?) ahead of trying to fill it- the fact that the margin is high does indicate that it may be a scam, but does not make it certain.

The reason reason the scam sucks is if you had the module they happen to be using for the scam on hand, you can't scam the scammer- the buy order is entirely false and impossible to fill. The only good solutions to the market doing this is to either a) hide such impossible buy orders, and/or b) allow them to be locked in via contract so a seller can guarantee the buy before they engage in risk.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#493 - 2014-02-18 16:41:21 UTC
i'm too lazy to read through 25 pages, so i'll just shotgun my thoughts in here:

1. just as when you undock your ship you implicitly agree to PVP, putting up a buy or sell order should be viewed as implicit consent for going through with the purchase, until you 'redock' by cancelling the order.

2. unfortunately, any method of enforcing the trade to go through can inherently be abused to generate infinite ISK (by selling to a throwaway alt for example).

3. from 1) and 2) we must conclude that the only consistent way to keep players from (to stay in the metaphor) being invulnerable whilst undocked is by forcing them to redock (i.e. force cancel the order if it is not covered).

last but not least, i personally do not mind the ui 'lying' to me in this particular case, as it does so on many other occasions. i also find the current scam mechanic to be a valuable addition to the game; there can never be enough ways for taking advantage of the greedy and uninformed.

I should buy an Ishtar.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#494 - 2014-02-18 18:44:32 UTC
Jessica Danikov wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:


So how do we guarantee a 'Contract to buy' without actually making good on that 'Contract' beforehand? No answer needed just typing (Thinking) out loud.


As I said a page ago, allow a prospective seller to convert the buy order (or a portion of it) into a contract- this subtracts the full amount (not just the escrow) and locks it into the contract, meaning the funds are now guaranteed at the point of contract creation.

Margin scams do affect traders who operate in low-volume niches and there's no reason there can't be valid trade in those niches. The whole insidiousness of the scam is there's no way to tell whether it's genuine or not (if someone wants to pay that much for an officer mod, why not?) ahead of trying to fill it- the fact that the margin is high does indicate that it may be a scam, but does not make it certain.

The reason reason the scam sucks is if you had the module they happen to be using for the scam on hand, you can't scam the scammer- the buy order is entirely false and impossible to fill. The only good solutions to the market doing this is to either a) hide such impossible buy orders, and/or b) allow them to be locked in via contract so a seller can guarantee the buy before they engage in risk.


I concur that low-volume niches are hindered by Margin trade scams, that utilize the same items to complete the scam. If you want to protect these low-volume niche traders, the optimal method to do so is to add a "verify order" function. Right-Click on a buy order, select verify order, and for a 1m isk fee, the "broker" will verify the seller has enough funds to cover the minimum purchase order.

If you are a niche trader, and you want to surprise buttsex margin trade scammers, you'll want to add a "isk % of order currently held in escrow". This allows you to sell the item for however much they have in the escrow account if you can do math.

If you want to help the new player that usually falls for this scam, they need to be educated on the scam in a market tutorial. Essentially, they need to be informed that buy orders are NOT guaranteed to complete, and can automatically fail if someone doesn't have the funds to cover the purchase.

Removing the Margin Trade skill will hurt marketeers. Punishing failed margin trade scammers should be a player activity, not a game mechanic. Add some type of "Agent" that allows you to follow large isk transfers so you know who to extract your revenge upon.
Alexia Marhx
The Witch's Den
#495 - 2014-02-18 21:03:02 UTC
I reiterate my "negative balance" suggestion from the previous page. That way honest traders would simply have to repay their debts, while scamers would have to either drown under debts or work on another scheme...
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#496 - 2014-02-19 00:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Okay, I'd just like to step in with a few points:

1) Somebody said that serious traders are hurt by the Margin Trading scam, but that is an absolute load of crap. No serious trader is hurt in any significant way by the presence of this scam. Can it potentially throw a wrench into the process of price discovery on less abundant items? Sure, in edge cases mostly. But the point of trading is not for it to be easy, and serious traders know how to detect and ignore noise in their data. They also know that they will be hurt immeasurably more by a nerf to Margin Trading than they are by any of these scams, which only affect people who haven't learned their basic lessons about the reality of trading in EVE.

2) I feel like CCP Rise needs to be taken to task for introducing this notion here that the UI is "lying" to players. No lie is occurring. Not to any greater extent than it would be if I mined a bunch of Veldspar, tried to sell it to a buy order, and somebody else got there before I could. The big difference is that I didn't pay an inflated price for the ore, so selling it to the next buy order won't be any big deal to me, most likely. Players who get caught up in the Margin Trading scam are not pissed off because the order disappeared. They're pissed because they now realize they overspent heavily on a bunch of items that they'll never be able to profit from, much less break even on. If the system never guarantees any individual player exclusive access to an order he/she sees, then the system can't be lying, even by showing an order that has been set up to fail. All the system ever says is, "Hey, there's an order over here." It never guarantees that you will be the one who accesses it, nor does it guarantee that all of the conditions of your situation and the situation of the order are congruent. For most people, when an order set up with Margin Trading fails, it's not a big deal. They can sell to the next guy. You protect yourself by knowing the market, not by nerfing a skill that large numbers of others find useful for totally legitimate, day-to-day operations. For CCP to come out and propagate this notion that the UI is "lying" is, I think, irresponsible, and only fuels the overall irrational following that the "Margin Trading scam" issue has built up around it.

3) Most people don't realize the service that market traders perform on a constant basis in EVE. By finding profit in the margins between buys and sells, we are regularizing prices for those who buy off the markets. We are the reason why you know that item X won't cost Y today and Y*2 tomorrow. If you nerf the Margin Trading skill significantly enough, to the point where we know we either have to splash out all the money for a buy order up-front, or keep it on hand all the time, that's going to hinder our involvement in areas of the market with slower volume movement. Fewer of us will want to be involved, which means less regular prices for retail shoppers, and likely far higher prices overall, since these would become exclusive seller's markets. In other words, the people who complain about Margin Trading--instead of taking responsibility for, and learning from, their own failures, as they should--will only end up hurting themselves and loads of players who've never done them any harm whatsoever.
Odoman Empeer
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#497 - 2014-02-19 01:45:46 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:


The problem is, tons of buy orders which are legitimate are going to show less than 100% escrow. Why? Because most active traders have the Margin Trading skill.

what does this have to do with anything?

Like I said, this is all just going to be noise, and tell you nothing more about the quality of a buy order than if there were no escrow % column at all.

That's the point. It'll have no affect on the game mechanics. To players who know what it is, it is meaningless. To players that don't know what this is, it will be a huge beacon that says HEY DUMBASS, THERE IS MORE HERE THAN YOU THINK




I'll underline my next point for emphasis: The most effective way to protect yourself, as usual, is to (a) understand the market for the item you're purchasing, and (b) keep an eye on the minimum buy quantity on the order in question. Knowing that a buy order doesn't have full escrow is a useless piece of information.

Why should I have any need to understand the market as a mission runner, pvp pilot, or what not? If I spend all my time getting income from selling to buy orders from crap i get from missions / pvp or ratting, why does it make a difference whether I ever even train more than Trading II?

What you are suggesting is that CCP spend development time adding a completely useless column to the market interface, just so a handful of edge cases cannot be helped by it.

CCP created this thread themselves asking for suggestions to this issue. They are going to spend development time to address this issue one way or another.


I think the reason why some people don't want to deal with the underlined point I made above is because my suggestion is harder to follow than it is to just come to the forums and whine about it. But there is no "I Win" button in the Margin Trading scam that forces ISK out of your wallet and overpriced goods into your item hangar. I get that it's easy to blame the Margin Trading skill. Nobody wants to feel like they had a hand in their own victimization. But the skill isn't what does this to you. The sooner the complainers learn this, the more quickly they will learn how to protect themselves.

Very quickly the game explains that you can lose your ship anywhere, any time. they introduce insurance, they cram it down your throat. There is a tutorial mission where your ship WILL die. Scammers typing in local is easy to spot that a person buying isk for 1 billion, but the contract says one million, is a scam. However, the one constant is that whenever a player buys from the market from a sell order, they get that item. When they get items from missions, etc, and they click 'sell item', it pops up saying what the price is, and what the regional average is, and whether they are selling above or below it. No one will know what the marginal trade skill is, they will just see the market, they will see that the isk is there to be made, and they might see that there is enough on station to fill the order. They look at the buy sheet, they look at the sell sheet, they think they have all the information. They shouldn't be expected to know that one of the hundreds of skills in eve can be used to place an order on the market without putting up 100% escrow. Scratch that, most people don't even know wtf escrow is. They don't place buy orders, so they'll have never seen it in that part of the interface. The fact of the matter is, people have 100% faith in the market, and coming from any other game, the market is 100% the money is there, period.

To say that anyone who falls for this scam is just a complainer, that they should just learn the game, is like saying that people should have just learned how to use a probe launcher. The fact of the matter is, CCP changed it to make it more accessible to more people. The sooner you learn that CCP will make changes to the game, the more quickly you will learn to stop using the reason 'It doesn't need to change' in a thread started by CCP about changing the mechanic in order to make it more apparent what is going on, so that they no longer get flooded with GM complaints about buy orders disappearing.





Response in the quote in bold. Seriously, don't crap on my suggestion in a thread about suggestions made by CCP about what would be the best way to address the issue of this scam.

All I am suggesting is making the fact that escrow exists visible to players in an obvious way. I'm not suggesting changing how the marginal trading skill functions. I'm not suggesting to penalize marginal traders. All I'm suggesting is make it visible so that normal people, 90% of the players in eve, every new player who just starting running lvl 4 missions, etc etc, will not so easily fall for a silly trick that exists in a system that, as taught by any other mmo or game that they have ever played, must be correct simply because it is in the actual UI of the game.


Also, effing forums keeps eating these after typing 2000 characters.
Odoman Empeer
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#498 - 2014-02-19 01:48:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Odoman Empeer
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:


The problem is, tons of buy orders which are legitimate are going to show less than 100% escrow. Why? Because most active traders have the Margin Trading skill.

what does this have to do with anything?


Like I said, this is all just going to be noise, and tell you nothing more about the quality of a buy order than if there were no escrow % column at all.

That's the point. It'll have no affect on the game mechanics. To players who know what it is, it is meaningless. To players that don't know what this is, it will be a huge beacon that says HEY DUMBASS, THERE IS MORE HERE THAN YOU THINK





I'll underline my next point for emphasis: The most effective way to protect yourself, as usual, is to (a) understand the market for the item you're purchasing, and (b) keep an eye on the minimum buy quantity on the order in question. Knowing that a buy order doesn't have full escrow is a useless piece of information.

Why should I have any need to understand the market as a mission runner, pvp pilot, or what not? If I spend all my time getting income from selling to buy orders from crap i get from missions / pvp or ratting, why does it make a difference whether I ever even train more than Trading II?


What you are suggesting is that CCP spend development time adding a completely useless column to the market interface, just so a handful of edge cases cannot be helped by it.

CCP created this thread themselves asking for suggestions to this issue. They are going to spend development time to address this issue one way or another.



I think the reason why some people don't want to deal with the underlined point I made above is because my suggestion is harder to follow than it is to just come to the forums and whine about it. But there is no "I Win" button in the Margin Trading scam that forces ISK out of your wallet and overpriced goods into your item hangar. I get that it's easy to blame the Margin Trading skill. Nobody wants to feel like they had a hand in their own victimization. But the skill isn't what does this to you. The sooner the complainers learn this, the more quickly they will learn how to protect themselves.

Very quickly the game explains that you can lose your ship anywhere, any time. they introduce insurance, they cram it down your throat. There is a tutorial mission where your ship WILL die. Scammers typing in local is easy to spot that a person buying isk for 1 billion, but the contract says one million, is a scam. However, the one constant is that whenever a player buys from the market from a sell order, they get that item. When they get items from missions, etc, and they click 'sell item', it pops up saying what the price is, and what the regional average is, and whether they are selling above or below it. No one will know what the marginal trade skill is, they will just see the market, they will see that the isk is there to be made, and they might see that there is enough on station to fill the order. They look at the buy sheet, they look at the sell sheet, they think they have all the information. They shouldn't be expected to know that one of the hundreds of skills in eve can be used to place an order on the market without putting up 100% escrow. Scratch that, most people don't even know wtf escrow is. They don't place buy orders, so they'll have never seen it in that part of the interface. The fact of the matter is, people have 100% faith in the market, and coming from any other game, the market is 100% the money is there, period.

To say that anyone who falls for this scam is just a complainer, that they should just learn the game, is like saying that people should have just learned how to use a probe launcher. The fact of the matter is, CCP changed it to make it more accessible to more people. The sooner you learn that CCP will make changes to the game, the more quickly you will learn to stop using the reason 'It doesn't need to change' in a thread started by CCP about changing the mechanic in order to make it more apparent what is going on, so that they no longer get flooded with GM complaints about buy orders disappearing.





Response in the quote in bold. Seriously, don't crap on my suggestion in a thread about suggestions made by CCP about what would be the best way to address the issue of this scam.

All I am suggesting is making the fact that escrow exists visible to players in an obvious way. I'm not suggesting changing how the marginal trading skill functions. I'm not suggesting to penalize marginal traders. All I'm suggesting is make it visible so that normal people, 90% of the players in eve, every new player who just starting running lvl 4 missions, etc etc, will not so easily fall for a silly trick that exists in a system that, as taught by any other mmo or game that they have ever played, must be correct simply because it is in the actual UI of the game.


Also, effing forums keeps eating these after typing 2000 characters.
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#499 - 2014-02-19 01:58:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Thanks for replying in the most obnoxious, unquotable way.

As I've already explained, adding a column that states the % held in escrow for buy orders will not give players any information that enlightens their point of view. Even in a situation where there might be a Margin Trade scam going on, the most salient information is external to the skill itself--whether the price is suspiciously jacked-up and whether there's a suspicious minimum buy quantity where it doesn't really make sense.

I can get why people such as yourself might THINK that this information will be useful, because you're still convinced, and wrongly so, that the Margin Trading skill is what does the scam to you. So hey, obviously if you show people that an order has less than 100% held in escrow, that will be the silver bullet that confirms the presence of a scam, right?

But the reality is that tons of orders have less than 100% held in escrow. So many that data indicating such is just more noise in the equation. By including it in a column of its own, the suggestion is that the information is somehow salient or meaningful, when it's anything but.

CCP Rise, and those who agree with him, want to talk a big game about creating a UI that doesn't "lie" to or mislead players. But adding an entire column to the market interface with such a narrow use, and one which isn't even reliable in serving that use to begin with, is exactly that: misleading.
Odoman Empeer
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#500 - 2014-02-19 02:24:30 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Thanks for replying in the most obnoxious, unquotable way.



You are welcome

When have I stated that the marginal trading skill is what makes the scam work? Most people that know what escrow is don't have any issues with it. It's the majority of players that don't know that the skill even exists that is the problem. The easiest solution is to give this fact that the skill exists more visibility. Adding one column with a tool tip that says something about or links to marginal trading skills would make the skill visible, and everyone would know it exists.

The suggestion is minimal, does absolutely nothing to how the game mechanics function, and makes falling for any sort of scam relating to the marginal trading skill inexcusable in any way. The column in no way lies or misleads players. It is simply information. Having no information and having information that you don't understand are two different things. One will result in people wanting to gain information, the other results in hundreds of GM requests about people who go to sell things and the order simply dissappears, with them being left with 10,000 random modules.


CCP Rise wrote:
This is a problem that my team has been hoping to fix for quite some time now. We were prepared to make changes for the Rubicon release but after a lengthy discussion with the CSM we didn't feel satisfied with current solutions and so now we want to open up the discussion to you guys for help.

In case you aren't sure what I'm talking about:

The Margin Trading Scam exploits the mechanic where a character with the Margin Trading skill can place buy orders and only place a portion of the ISK in escrow. If they then transfer all of their ISK away, the order will fail when someone tries to sell to it, essentially allowing them to make a fake buy order. Usually this means players make purchases that are grossly overpriced with the expectation that they can sell them to the margin trading-based buy order and make money, but instead are left with a pile of items that they will have to take a loss on.

I want to make another thing clear about this issue which came up when talking with the CSM:

This isn't about scamming or whether or not it's okay for people to trick other people, which is obviously extremely EVE and we have no problem with. The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled.

The solution we proposed to the CSM initially was based around the idea that if you didn't have enough money in your wallet to back an order, that order would be cancelled. This would still allow traders to benefit from being able to have multiple orders for which they couldn't cover the total. For example, I could have one buy order for a thorax at 5 mil, and another order for a rupture at 5 mil with only 7 mil in my wallet. If my wallet went below 5mil, it would cancel both orders.

There are several problems with this solution, the biggest of which is that it puts unwanted pressure on legitimate up-and-coming market traders who need to be able to leverage the ISK they have. There is also some advanced market gameplay around putting up very large buy orders which you can't technically cover, but which also will never realistically get filled. If you guys have feelings either way about this solution please share.

Quote:
A second possibility, which emerged from the discussion with the CSM, was built around marking orders in the market interface based on whether or not they were placed using margin trading. This would mean that when you place a buy order you would have to decide whether that would be a 'guaranteed' order or not, and then it would be marked (colored or check boxed or something) in the market interface so that people would know whether there was risk involved in trying to fill the order. This has several problems also, including: making legitimate market activity seem shady, making the interface more confusing, adding clicks for people placing orders and also costing new players money by steering them away from cheaper orders because of fear of scams.


It's a complex problem and we want to handle it carefully but we would appreciate any ideas or insights you guys can provide to help us.

Thanks!




Just in case you forgot already, There seems to already be a change in the works. Does my idea have less impact or more impact than his second possibility? I think it has more impact on the visibility of the skill, and less impact on how trading occurs. I think it will result in less people making GM petitions regarding this issue, and less people falling for this scam, in general. What do you think? It's not an issue of whether you think this is an issue or not. It's not an issue of whether you think Rise is right to want to change this aspect of eve or not. That is a different discussion. This discussion has a stated premise that something WILL change, and that the change is currently one of two varieties, but they want to take a look at what other possibilities exist. Why don't you try replying to the topic with that premise stated by Rise, instead of calling everyone whiners and ****.