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Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended

First post
Author
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-02-18 05:00:23 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Vindi+ Cov Ops Cloak
Bhaal+ Cov Ops Cloak
Carrier+ Cov Ops Cloak

All those are in that price neighborhood.

Besides, something that ugly shouldn't be allowed to hide itself. It should be shot with a vengeance. :P

Except we're not talking about Vindicators, Bhaalgorns or carriers (all of which are under a billion, btw). This is a $1.6-billion enhanced blender. I don't have a snappy comeback for the ugly comment.




Where are these ships placed on the market by NPC sell orders @ 1.6b?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Onictus
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2014-02-18 05:20:58 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Vindi+ Cov Ops Cloak
Bhaal+ Cov Ops Cloak
Carrier+ Cov Ops Cloak

All those are in that price neighborhood.

Besides, something that ugly shouldn't be allowed to hide itself. It should be shot with a vengeance. :P

Except we're not talking about Vindicators, Bhaalgorns or carriers (all of which are under a billion, btw). This is a $1.6-billion enhanced blender. I don't have a snappy comeback for the ugly comment.



Because its true.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#63 - 2014-02-18 05:51:05 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
There is nothing simple about the scale.

The Nestor is going to bring good resists, battleship plates, and large remote reps. Those reps will havecuseful ranges, not tying the ships they are supporting to within 8k of the battleship.

I am not saying you cant do something like it on a smaller scale, but the proteus has nothing like the range on the RR, and will not be using large reps. Its fitting is going to be tighter.

I will admit that I dont know the difference in EHP between the two, but there is also the difference in effectiveness between medium and large repairers.

At the end of the day, these larger scale ships are prohibited cov-ops cloaks because its just too much. Perhaps this idea can get more traction after the BLOPS balance pass. If it becomes determined that battleship scale ships are not OP with covops cloaks, then this can be revisited.

At this time I could see giving the bonus the BLOPS have for cloaks, but nothing further.


dual RR proteus will tank 1000dps per partner (that's medium t2 reps). a gang of 20 can tank 20k dps unheated. A gang of 50 can tank 50k unheated.

We still don't see proteus covops RR gangs.

Why should we see large gangs of Nestors? If we do, won't the response be a hot-drop?

"just too much" is a meaningless phrase.



As I said, I dont know much about how the ships compare. I know what I fly, but I never cared for the T3 ships.

What is the EHP of a Nestor with a couple Plates for buffer? How does that compare to a Proteus? Not just the effectiveness of the RR itself, but the ability to absorb an alpha as well. Is the Proteus that stout? I know Damnations can get silly large HP buffers, but I have never heard the same of the T3 ships. I admit I dont fly them, but my understanding is that part of their performance excellence comes from thier manuverability.

What is the range of the RR on the two ships? The Proteus must be flying pretty tight to pull that off. What happens when one gets webbed? The Nestors will have much more situational flexability.

What is the size of the Proteus drone bay and its bandwidth? Is it putting out full flights of bonused sentries with spare flights? Is the damage the same, or as with the Stratios is it a bit less?

Spider tanking drone ships are not new, but there is no denying that they are both pkwerful and effective. In combination with the perfect defense of a cov-ops cloak I think they would be more powerful than intended.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2014-02-18 05:55:46 UTC
Mike, Brick Prot's are one of a handful of Subcaps that can hold their own to a brick damnation in HP/EHP Buffer.


I've not run numbers but I'd imagine the rep power(Not range) of a Nestor and brick RR Prot wouldn't be too dissimilar, the big factor there being range and drone bay. Nestor can drone the pants off a Prot. The weakness of RR T3's is their range. They can put out some serious rep power, at a very short range.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#65 - 2014-02-18 06:44:19 UTC
TehCloud wrote:
We don't need more CovOps Capable ships in the game. The Stratios is already a Ship capable of insane DPS while warping cloaked.
Give the Nestor a better Slot Layout, less meds, maybe even a high, more lows.



We absolutely need more CovOps capable ships in the game. Can you imagine the well played bait and counter drop on a fleet of Nestors? More content, more fun…. it is that simple.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-02-18 08:56:28 UTC
I am still not seeing arguments saying much more than, "it would be op because it would be a cloaky dps logistics ship".

My answer is, "yes, it would be a cloaky dps logistics ship - with limited power".

The limits to power come in a few forms currently:

1. Rep range is short - a spider tanked Nestor fleet would need to remain in a very bomb able16km cluster.
2. Repping power is about half that of a logistics ship. Because of cap stability a spider Nestor will want no more than 3 rr units. It has a t1 resist profile. A logistics ship will spider twice the ehp per second at 5 times the range while moving quickly with a small sig radius.
3. Dps and damage projection is not high. There are no drone control range bonuses, and not enough low slots to fit massive tank plus big damage. It's either/or.
4. It's really slow. Despite the narrative, a Nestor does barely 1000m/s under full mwd. Remember that in a spider configuration everyone will have different levels of navigation skills. No way could you risk moving the fleet while being aggressed.

A Nestor spider fleet would be a difficult nut to crack, up to a certain size; Beyond which spider tanking a 140k ehp battleship no longer works (once the other side can bring 20 battleships I would have thought).

I submit that the cloaky Nestor's role would still be limited in null spec for this reason, and hat it would find a useful niche in w-space engagements where there is no possibility of a hot drop to end the party.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Shamus en Divalone
The Clandestine Forge
#67 - 2014-02-18 09:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Shamus en Divalone
Getting the Nestor tweaked to fit a cov ops cloak will happen only if they do the black ops too, which will never happen unfortunately.

I do however think it would benefit from the normal Black ops abilities greatly given it's exploration role. I was expecting the Nestor to have something along these lines on launch but clearly i was mistaken.

To make it unique they could introduce a SOE Cyno for the smaller SOE ships to use and allow the Nestor to bridge to W-Space with an SOE jump portal generator allowing ships to travel alongside it but only of SOE origin.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2014-02-18 09:39:14 UTC
Shamus en Divalone wrote:
Getting the Nestor tweaked to fit a cov ops cloak will happen only if they do the black ops too, which will never happen unfortunately.

I do however think it would benefit from the normal Black ops abilities greatly given it's exploration role. I was expecting the Nestor to have something along these lines on launch but clearly i was mistaken.

To make it unique they could introduce a SOE Cyno for the smaller SOE ships to use and allow the Nestor to bridge to W-Space with an SOE jump portal generator allowing ships to travel alongside it but only of SOE origin.


It will happen if the Dev team become convinced that it's a good idea, and become enthusiastic about it again. I believe their original enthusiasm has been dampened by naysaying by people who have not thought it through.

This thread seeks to reverse this terrible wrong. Please keep it on topic.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#69 - 2014-02-18 10:53:27 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
In wormhole space the advantage of the ability to warp cloaked is clear.
In lowsec and null the atvantage is less clear as local negates the suprise fleet concept to a large degree. It is impossible for a group to sneak up on someone other than in using a small ship and hot-drop them.

So for those at live in null and losec PLEASE explain What is overpowered in your environment in a battleship WARPING CLOAKED,

Battleships can already warp and can already cloak,provide logi,drop drones, afk cloak and do all sorts of other things you may not like.this is not about that.

This is asking specifically for the Nestor to warp cloaked. If we identify the specific issue you have, then a balance can be made to allow the ability thereby making it possible to use it in wormhole space.

If after careful thought you realise that, warping cloaked in a battleship is not actually that bad after all, then please post that together with the type of space/s you tend to operate in. Then we can move this discussion forward.

But :-
Please don't post "no! it has never happened before, I don't like it!, it will be overpowered !!! " comments, no more "no cloaky battleships!! CCP Promised! (Sort of) "comments please.


We all have read the cut'n paste comments and thinking, we don't need more.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#70 - 2014-02-18 13:41:13 UTC
Part of the issue is the power of a battleship and how it fights.

Smaller ships have significantly weaker defensive abilities, and rely on mobility to get out when overpowered.

Battleships have staying power, and when properly supported can be quite dangerous as they are. Part of their balance is that they do not have the kind of mobility that smaller ships have, and BLOPS follow that pattern by not allowing covops cloaks. Unlike other cov-ops ships the BLOPS can be actively hunted if they are themselves active, because they must decloak to move around.

I will not weigh in on if this is appropriate, as the point of the thread was to provide reasoning on why it would be OP, and to provide empirical data. The only data we have is that currently the only ships similar are BLOPS, and they pay dearly for the cloak bonus they have with much of their tank.

I would argue then that battleship power with more cloaking ability than that has been deemed OP by the devs. Has anyone compared the raw tank of the Nestor against the BLOPS?
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#71 - 2014-02-18 14:02:05 UTC
Hi

I wanted to post because I appreciate that the discussion is mostly very constructive and that's always nice to see.

To respond to a few specific things:

Quote:
The history of this is that the dev team conceived the Nestor as a covert-capable ship in line with the other two sisters ships. They designed the hull with the ring for this reason and even wrote a ship description which referenced it (the one before the description that is currently on the Nestor, which was changed at the last minute).


This is false. The SOE line was originally conceived based on a few elements, none of which had to do with cloaks. The original idea actually existed before I got to CCP and the main goals at first were to combine lasers and drones for the most renewable weapon loadout possible so that long deployment would be easy and also to make a very flexible ship that would emulate the Gnosis due to its popularity but limited nature. As always we went through a lot of iteration and eventually arrived at the covert solution for the Astero and Stratios and felt good about that. The Nestor was a bit of a puzzle for awhile and eventually we settled on logistics as the main theme, which was an idea that showed up internally and in the community.

Quote:
When pressed for an explanation, the dev team stated that with a covert cloak the Nestor would be overpowered and that it would compete with BLOPS in the same niche.


This is partly true. There is a fuzzy power barrier here that we don't want to cross, but as this thread is illustrating it can be difficult to pin down where that line should be. BLOPS came up because we felt if we started pushing into the black ops role with the Nestor before we had a black ops rebalance done we may have to go back and re-consider the Nestor afterwards.

Quote:
I see no evidence for either position, so respectfully am looking to build support for them to be a little braver in their decision making, and return the Nestor to what it was clearly (to me) designed to be.


Again, it wasn't 'meant' to be a covert ship, and there is no shortage of bravery here, I assure you.

Quote:
To be clear, the idea of a covops RR battleship was not mine, it was the Dev Team's. I am simply asking that they go through with that design decision and make the Nestor a little more aspirational, since at the moment it's fairly clear that it's an undesirable ship with a very few niche (and in my view, contrived) roles.


We may need to make more changes to get it established as the aspirational ship that we want it to be, but I still think a lot of the problems here are related to cost. If the Nestor was 500mil I doubt this discussion would be as common. We'll see how the new drops coming soon affect price and if we still have this problem we can look at making more changes.

Thanks again for a productive thread
Rise

@ccp_rise

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#72 - 2014-02-18 14:12:03 UTC
at 500 mil it's still trash. try making it good instead of making it cheaper.

lol @ people who don't think covops cloaks are broken op.
Centurax
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#73 - 2014-02-18 14:24:12 UTC
Still not sure why CCP and other groups seem to think that having a cloak on a battleship is a bad thing, they will make the platform expensive and a desirable target for those looking to pad kill mails as they are that much harder to find and kill.

Plus the Nestor without a jump drive wont be able to use a covert ops bridge that isn't even an issue.

Nestor could use a few tweaks to make it more desirable at the current cost, a covert ops cloak would be a big plus for that, maybe rearrange the weapons and high slots to make it more useful as a combat vessel, like 4x turret slots and 100% bonus to damage instead of the 50% bonus to energy weapon range (keep in mind there are no other bonuses to weapons other than drones) , making it no more powerful than a Navy Armageddon. It then can still function as an exploration and logistics vessel. But that is how I would design a deep space exploration vessel but I realise I might be a minority in that view.

I am also sure someone said something along the line CCP don't just through things in and see what happens, they do that all the time why do you think we go through so much balancing (too much in my opinion), continually balancing ships so they are similar goes against most principles of warship design (look at the Drake it is have need nerfed so much it can barely be called a warship anymore P) . Keep in mind how weapons progress first person gets a stick his enemy gets a bigger stick and so on. It would be nice to get some bigger weapons in Eve, but that is a different point, just because it might alter a persons game play doesn't mean it should not be added. Another example CCP altered the Ice Mining and that killed one play style that was much enjoyed and they completely ignored that community, it would be nice if they would listen to the Pro Covertops Battleship community for once and give us what we want, as they seem to do it for everyone else when they cry about how powerful a ship has gotten when they couldn't one shot it on a gate.

Apologies for the small rant, but it is years of frustration over how things seem to progress, but it is part of the problem when it comes to adding content like cloaked battleship, a vocal minority will sit and make up excuses why it shouldn't happen rather than giving it a chance. Maybe it would be different if there were methods of detecting cloaked ship and it would not be such an issue but that is yet another controversial topic that keeps being put off.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#74 - 2014-02-18 14:27:50 UTC
Centurax wrote:
Still not sure why CCP and other groups seem to think that having a cloak on a battleship is a bad thing, they will make the platform expensive and a desirable target for those looking to pad kill mails as they are that much harder to find and kill.


Because battleships are balanced around having high dps and high ehp, but not being able to easily choose fights.
Centurax
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#75 - 2014-02-18 14:31:09 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Because battleships are balanced around having high dps and high ehp, but not being able to easily choose fights.


Why is being able to choose a fight with a battleship a bad thing?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#76 - 2014-02-18 14:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Centurax wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Because battleships are balanced around having high dps and high ehp, but not being able to easily choose fights.


Why is being able to choose a fight with a battleship a bad thing?


Because being good at everything is called being overpowered.

Its like asking why interceptors cant do 800 dps. Battleships are balanced around poor mobility. Covops cloak effectively gives incredible mobility to ships that can fit it.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#77 - 2014-02-18 14:35:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We may need to make more changes to get it established as the aspirational ship that we want it to be, but I still think a lot of the problems here are related to cost. If the Nestor was 500mil I doubt this discussion would be as common. We'll see how the new drops coming soon affect price and if we still have this problem we can look at making more changes.

Yes, cost is probably the key issue here - and yes, if it were priced between between $500-$600 million that would certainly make it more appealing. However, the Nestor still lacks enough power grid and capacitor to be effectively utilized. To really be useful in wormhole space it needs a Covert Ops cloak.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#78 - 2014-02-18 14:39:17 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
To really be useful in wormhole space it needs a Covert Ops cloak


wormhole people truly are awful.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#79 - 2014-02-18 14:41:44 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
We may need to make more changes to get it established as the aspirational ship that we want it to be, but I still think a lot of the problems here are related to cost. If the Nestor was 500mil I doubt this discussion would be as common. We'll see how the new drops coming soon affect price and if we still have this problem we can look at making more changes.

Yes, cost is probably the key issue here - and yes, if it were priced between between $500-$600 million that would certainly make it more appealing. However, the Nestor still lacks enough power grid and capacitor to be effectively utilized. To really be useful in wormhole space it needs a Covert Ops cloak.


Im not sure people who fly 7b pve vindicators while suspect 1j from jita are really credible when they complain about prices.

Same goes for people who fly arty tengus.
Centurax
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#80 - 2014-02-18 14:49:25 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Centurax wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Because battleships are balanced around having high dps and high ehp, but not being able to easily choose fights.


Why is being able to choose a fight with a battleship a bad thing?


Because being good at everything is called being overpowered.

Its like asking why interceptors cant do 800 dps. Battleships are balanced around poor mobility. Covops cloak effectively gives incredible mobility to ships that can fit it.



Well an interceptor with 800 dps is pointless that we can agree on, but this isn't the case of making a battleship overpowered, given CCPs design elements for a covert ops ship a Covert ops battleship will be fast, lightly armed (maybe only capable of doing 800 to 1000 dps) and have a poor tank, so a glass cannon with a cloak. It isn't like you would necessary have fleets of covert ops battleships attacking 0.0 systems because it isn't cost effective when you can have a T1 ship do the same job probably better, but you would use them to strike high risk and well protected targets. Covert ops warships should probably be treated as the Cavalry of the Eve world, fast lightly armed ships that can apply dps and then get out, the stealth bomber is the best example of that, it would be good to have similar battlecruiser or battleship sized versions with different roles. However in the case of the Nestor it is performing a different role in which a covert ops cloak would make it firstly more desirable and secondly more use able.