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Nullsec non-combat exploration questions.
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Garaba
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1 - 2014-02-18 11:21:09 UTC
While I have had t2 data/relic skills for some time I've just recently gotten into doing null non-combat exploration. I've had a decent amount of success with it, but have a few questions/problems and am looking for some help.


Data sites:

Are these completely useless? I have done countless numbers of them so far, and I get junk. Every time. No "good" BPC, and the rest of the stuff is trash. Is there a general consensus that they are terrible, or am I just horribly unlucky?


Relic sites:

My biggest problem with relic sites is the cans full of t2 salvage. I run t2 modules, have a cheetah, and use 2x relic rigs, but I STILL end up failing about 50% of these cans. I usually fail before I even get to the mainframe as it completely fills up with junk before I even get to it. Is there something I am missing on these to make them easier? My general game plan is to click all the things that I can before I start attacking any defenses (unless the healing ones pop up). Is this the way most people do it or is there a more effective way?

The only other thing I can think of would be to jump to t2 rigs, and get the +5 VC implant for relics....



Any suggestions/answers/help is much appreciated. As always, thanks in advance.
Fred P
Carebears of New Eden
#2 - 2014-02-18 11:42:48 UTC
Whether data sites are useless or not isn't immediately a yes or no question. They take time to do, and the reward is not very good, but if you start to build up a decent amount of the modification thingies (augmenter, and so on) at least you have something to haul back to high-sec to sell. I have gotten a few hundred million from those things. So if you are having an unlucky day, and can't find any decent sites, at least it's easy to get a little bit out of data sites.

With regards to your relic site problems, it might be your strategy in the hacking game that's the issue, as you say you click all the things you can. I find that if you stick to the outermost nodes, only going inwards to go around the defenses that pop up, or after you have gone around the entire edge, you'll have much more luck, as the mainframe usually spawns on the outskirts of the board. You might know this, but I understand your post like you just click around willy nilly.

I only use t1 analyzers, and rarely have hacking rigs, and only fail both hacking attempts very rarely.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#3 - 2014-02-18 11:44:46 UTC
Garaba wrote:
While I have had t2 data/relic skills for some time I've just recently gotten into doing null non-combat exploration. I've had a decent amount of success with it, but have a few questions/problems and am looking for some help.


Data sites:

Are these completely useless? I have done countless numbers of them so far, and I get junk. Every time. No "good" BPC, and the rest of the stuff is trash. Is there a general consensus that they are terrible, or am I just horribly unlucky?


Relic sites:

My biggest problem with relic sites is the cans full of t2 salvage. I run t2 modules, have a cheetah, and use 2x relic rigs, but I STILL end up failing about 50% of these cans. I usually fail before I even get to the mainframe as it completely fills up with junk before I even get to it. Is there something I am missing on these to make them easier? My general game plan is to click all the things that I can before I start attacking any defenses (unless the healing ones pop up). Is this the way most people do it or is there a more effective way?

The only other thing I can think of would be to jump to t2 rigs, and get the +5 VC implant for relics....



Any suggestions/answers/help is much appreciated. As always, thanks in advance.


yeah that plan is bad for the most difficult cans due to rolling too many chances to hit the expensive debuff towers. I almost never fail by seriously working at checking the far borders, and then clearing towards the start. Note that I have both types of rigs and T2 analysers, ie I don't have 2 relic rigs.

Datas typically tooltip at 20m for 15 min for me, relics typically tooltip at 30m for same time. I'd presume that if I get 1 large tower drop, I'd pretty much have equalized months of relics being better tho. Places with intact armor plates might have a different ratio for the tooltip amounts.
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#4 - 2014-02-18 13:53:44 UTC
Are you getting to the sites before anyone else visits? I've been finding a lot of sites where someone only took the best cans.

-- I wish they would realize the site would regenerate somewhere if they would bother to clear it -- making more profit available to them.

I think the general opinion is that Relic sites are more valuable because they take up less cargo space than the data sites.

Some of the defensive nodes you have to take out immediately, not expose them all first.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5 - 2014-02-18 14:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Data and relic sites should despawn if someone leaves them half finished, especially now that its possible and completely advantageous to cherry pick the best cans. If they don't its worth a bug report. Its possible despawning in this situation is slightly delayed rather than immediate. I frankly haven't bothered to check since Odyssey.

In data sites, there are very occasionally good bpcs. Sometimes the t1 bpcs can be somewhat valuable (small AAR are good i think). But most of the consistent value is in decryptors/frisbees. There's typically at least one decryptor per can, meaning cherry picking isn't that great. Just be sure that you know off the top of your head which decryptors are <250k and which are good. I've heard that faction tower BPCs can only spawn in data sites (is that true?).

Relic sites are better for cherry picking as they tend to have valuable salvage concentrated in large stacks in just a few cans. T2 rig bpcs are good for any rig that people actually use, since you have between a 10-40% advantage in material waste over 90% of the stuff on the market. Faction battery bpcs and other stuff can be good. I've found relics to be more lucrative in general.

With a t2 hacking module you should be able to hack almost every container on the first try, and the second chance should make your chance of failure low. That said, there's luck to it, and sometimes you get a board filled with antiviruses and suppressors. I've certainly lost stacks of power circuits like this, but its fairly uncommon.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Garaba
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#6 - 2014-02-18 20:30:33 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Are you getting to the sites before anyone else visits? I've been finding a lot of sites where someone only took the best cans.

-- I wish they would realize the site would regenerate somewhere if they would bother to clear it -- making more profit available to them.

I think the general opinion is that Relic sites are more valuable because they take up less cargo space than the data sites.

Some of the defensive nodes you have to take out immediately, not expose them all first.



I've been getting sites before others. I am in sov held, upgraded systems. While they are hostile, I don't see many people going at sites, or bothering me at all to be honest.

As to the other posts, I will try the borders first.

Would the 5% relic implant be worth it?
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#7 - 2014-02-18 23:30:30 UTC
Its not for me, I almost never fail the same can twice.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#8 - 2014-02-18 23:32:34 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Are you getting to the sites before anyone else visits? I've been finding a lot of sites where someone only took the best cans.

-- I wish they would realize the site would regenerate somewhere if they would bother to clear it -- making more profit available to them.

I think the general opinion is that Relic sites are more valuable because they take up less cargo space than the data sites.

Some of the defensive nodes you have to take out immediately, not expose them all first.


Actually those people don't believe that the site will respawn at a useful time for them, and are probably cargo space limited.

The solution for those people is to find them and shoot them, so they come back to your areas less often.
Garaba
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#9 - 2014-02-18 23:56:07 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Are you getting to the sites before anyone else visits? I've been finding a lot of sites where someone only took the best cans.

-- I wish they would realize the site would regenerate somewhere if they would bother to clear it -- making more profit available to them.

I think the general opinion is that Relic sites are more valuable because they take up less cargo space than the data sites.

Some of the defensive nodes you have to take out immediately, not expose them all first.


Actually those people don't believe that the site will respawn at a useful time for them, and are probably cargo space limited.

The solution for those people is to find them and shoot them, so they come back to your areas less often.



I don't really have a set area. I've recently been flying in the razor alliance/goon territory. They pretty much just bot the anoms, and leave the others for me. If someone does try to find me I end up burning the cans left, and cloaking up.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#10 - 2014-02-19 00:01:38 UTC
Tauranon wrote:

Actually those people don't believe that the site will respawn at a useful time for them, and are probably cargo space limited.

The solution for those people is to find them and shoot them, so they come back to your areas less often.


Not my fault ccp broke despawn mechanics.
I can't be bothered to fly around to cans up to 70km apart just to explode them.
Its more time with my ass hanging out waiting to get shot.
If the site doesn't respawn somewhere else, thats good too, because its one less signature floating around for me to scan and prof sites aren't my main motivation.
Leaving these sites out discourages other explorers too. Maybe. Although thats minor.
Come at me bro. P

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#11 - 2014-02-19 00:53:56 UTC
Batelle wrote:

Come at me bro. P


Yes, that is pretty much the point of no-npc miniprofs. Though I am often present when they spawn in my system, which means nobody else has chewed on them, and I may, or may not have scanned all the cans for big valuables before leaving it as cheese for the mousetrap.

The despawn is pretty long, can take an hour. Unfortunately it messes really badly with digital plexus, I managed to despawn that before I finished it. I may have to actually bring an alt account out for that. Its a real rare spawner though.
Baron Chauman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-02-19 05:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Baron Chauman
Garaba wrote:
Data sites:

Are these completely useless?


I see very few people who bother with them in null. I go for the 10m decryptors, for however long they are still worth something.

Garaba wrote:
My biggest problem with relic sites is the cans full of t2 salvage. I run t2 modules, have a cheetah, and use 2x relic rigs, but I STILL end up failing about 50% of these cans.


Then you are bad, somehow. I use t1 modules in a Stratios with no rigs and fail probably less than 10% on the toughest cans. What others said, go for the opposite edge of the map.

I've seen tower bpcs in relic sites so they are not exclusive to data.

Sites despawn fairly quickly when they are half-done. If I find them like that, I take it as a sign to go probing elsewhere.
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#13 - 2014-02-19 15:29:43 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Its not for me, I almost never fail the same can twice.


Isn't every attempt random? Therefor the second attempt has the same chance of failure as the first? How does it reason that running a random board a second time has any better chance? I am really curious, maybe i am missing something
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#14 - 2014-02-19 15:52:15 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Its not for me, I almost never fail the same can twice.


Isn't every attempt random? Therefor the second attempt has the same chance of failure as the first? How does it reason that running a random board a second time has any better chance? I am really curious, maybe i am missing something


The subsequent trial appears to me to be not affected by the first.

so notionally if you are failing hack attempts 50% of the time, because of gear and strategy, you'd expect to fail the second one 50% of the time too, so lose 25% or 1 in 4 of your cans, as they explode/despawn after the second fail.

if on the other hand due to gear and strategy you are succeeding 90% of the time, then you'd expect to actually only lose something like 1 in 100 cans. 90% is certainly possible.

Note that the white circles seem to me to have a really high chance of being a debuff in the red-core cans, and I only hail-mary them if I've run out of sufficient virus strength to kill the core, otherwise I don't touch them. On a green core can they are only going to be barrier or buff, no debuff, so if one is bypassed already then its 100% worth taking.
hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
#15 - 2014-02-19 16:04:57 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
hydraSlav wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
Its not for me, I almost never fail the same can twice.


Isn't every attempt random? Therefor the second attempt has the same chance of failure as the first? How does it reason that running a random board a second time has any better chance? I am really curious, maybe i am missing something


The subsequent trial appears to me to be not affected by the first.

so notionally if you are failing hack attempts 50% of the time, because of gear and strategy, you'd expect to fail the second one 50% of the time too, so lose 25% or 1 in 4 of your cans, as they explode/despawn after the second fail.

if on the other hand due to gear and strategy you are succeeding 90% of the time, then you'd expect to actually only lose something like 1 in 100 cans. 90% is certainly possible.

Note that the white circles seem to me to have a really high chance of being a debuff in the red-core cans, and I only hail-mary them if I've run out of sufficient virus strength to kill the core, otherwise I don't touch them. On a green core can they are only going to be barrier or buff, no debuff, so if one is bypassed already then its 100% worth taking.



Can you tell me more about red vs green cores?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#16 - 2014-02-19 16:11:31 UTC
hydraSlav wrote:

Can you tell me more about red vs green cores?


I'm also interested in this. Typically identifying the core is followed immediately with its destruction, so unless you can tell ahead of time, I haven't noticed anything significant. Reds have higher coherence and seem to correspond to harder boards, is that it? I usually identify hard boards before i see the core due to the number of AVs, and suppressors.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#17 - 2014-02-19 16:12:45 UTC
red is the hard can, (ie ruin or databank).
yellow is the intermediate can (ie remains or mainframe)
green is the easy can (ie rubble or com-tower).
Loraine Gess
Confedeferate Union of Tax Legalists
#18 - 2014-02-19 17:39:12 UTC
Confirming data caches in null-sec/"red core" cans are more often than not AVs/supressors.
Garaba
SergalJerk
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#19 - 2014-02-19 23:45:25 UTC
Started doing the relic cans like you guys suggested, and I have not had a fail yet.

Pulled in 500m in loot, and a few hundred mil in BPC's in a few days.


Thanks for the help guys. It was VERY much appreciated.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#20 - 2014-02-20 01:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Healing baddies must go down ASAP. So must the baddie that decreases your virus strength. If they come up together they can reinforce each other and can end the game. The other two baddies can be left alone until necessary.

Leave mystery nodes unless you gave no other option.

Go through the board slow so you don't lock out good nodes, or the core itself. Blitz it later when you have a feel for the game.

I find the circle tool is best used on the baddie that reduces your virus strength. The spanner can be used right away. The halving tool is best used on the baddie that has the high ehp. The shield can be used on anything but is best saved until you need it. Don't use a special when you get a healing baddie, it takes a turn to activate the special and let's it do healing on that turn. Always do the maths before using a special tool, sometimes it has no effect because of the turn based maths.

Go round the edges when revealing activated nodes, if a baddie appears on the edge it locks out fewer nodes than if it is in the middle.

Sometimes you can do everything right and still lose the game.

Datas are meh, but they sometimes have optimized data cores which are ok. They also must be scanned for faction bpcs, just incase.
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