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Pi Changes
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243636
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2011-11-27 09:37:16 UTC
So after the changes to the tax on PI in the new expantion how many people will still buy in materials to import to a manufacturing planet or will it be a case of try and squeeze extractors and factorys all on to one planet to avoid paying more import/export duties?
And is it even possible to extract and combine into products on one plannet?
How far up the PI chain could you go assuming you had all PI skills to 5 to maxamise PG and CPU?
The PiMan Eatme
Public Haulage And Trade
#2 - 2011-11-27 13:07:16 UTC
243636 wrote:
So after the changes to the tax on PI in the new expantion how many people will still buy in materials to import to a manufacturing planet or will it be a case of try and squeeze extractors and factorys all on to one planet to avoid paying more import/export duties?
And is it even possible to extract and combine into products on one plannet?
How far up the PI chain could you go assuming you had all PI skills to 5 to maxamise PG and CPU?


With skills at 5 you can go all the way from P0 upto robotics on a plasma planet, its not pretty or efficent but it can be done.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#3 - 2011-11-27 16:09:10 UTC
243636 wrote:
So after the changes to the tax on PI in the new expantion how many people will still buy in materials to import to a manufacturing planet or will it be a case of try and squeeze extractors and factorys all on to one planet to avoid paying more import/export duties?
And is it even possible to extract and combine into products on one plannet?
How far up the PI chain could you go assuming you had all PI skills to 5 to maxamise PG and CPU?


The changes should not really effect the PI manufacturers, as the market prices will simply go up by the amount the taxes go up for the manufacturers.

so if you where making say 100 million per month profit, then you will be making about the same amount.


I think this is actually very good for the PI manufacturers, since everything you have stored up is actually going to go up in price.

for example:
Manufacturer A has 2.8 billion ISK of goods stocked away with a current market price of 1.0 isk
After Patch Manufactuer A has the same nano-Factories/Wetware...etc that have went up by 25-50% in value, so the value of his stocked up goods are now 3.5-4.1 billion ISK worth of goods.

If you dont believe me, check out the prices for the past month on ALL advanced PI goods =)

On top of everything, the Dev's are giving PI A WHOLE lot of love, and the changes look very promising and exciting!, so much that im strongly considering giving it a try, just waiting for the patch now.

I stocked up, did you?
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#4 - 2011-11-27 17:38:15 UTC
You can't go further than P3 in a single planet, and even that is inneficient.

Doing it in two steps, exporting at either P1 (if building P3) or P2 (for P4) are probably the most efficient chains overall.

The taxes are very slightly unbalanced, so it's cheaper to export at P1 and P3 than P2. But that doesn't compensate for the loss of volume from cramming P0-P3 or P1-P4 in a single planet.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644
Adunh Slavy
#5 - 2011-11-27 17:56:26 UTC
Depends on the items, those items which have greater demand, that are more of a "need", such a POS fuel items, more of the tax will be able to be pushed onto the buyer, for those items that are needed less, more of the tax will be carried by the producer.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
243636
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6 - 2011-11-27 19:02:32 UTC
Thats one thing thats always puzzled me. Is the price worked out from the bottom up or the top down?
I mean If a P4 items was worth 1,000,000 isk then the products below would have to total less than this with adiquate profit at each stage for the manufacturer to keep on doing it.
Or Is it a P1 item cast say 100 isk and you need so many of them to make a P2 item. So many p2 items to make a p3 item until you get to a p4 item? In the real world it would be the latter as materials have a price and no one is going to sell them at a loss.
In eve however PI doesnt cost you anything for materials once you have paid for the Comand centers so people just keep undercutting each other until they sell there stuff thinking its free isk anyway so wheres the harm?

May be there shud be a cartel thats sets the prices but it could never work in game.

Just makes you think though. I Invested most of my Isk in PI even if theres no massive profit at least it will beat the tax which really can be seen as an inflation measure. The cost of the increased taxs have to be passed on so really it shud be a no brainer, but EVE isnt the real world.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#7 - 2011-11-27 20:22:17 UTC
243636 wrote:
Thats one thing thats always puzzled me. Is the price worked out from the bottom up or the top down?
I mean If a P4 items was worth 1,000,000 isk then the products below would have to total less than this with adiquate profit at each stage for the manufacturer to keep on doing it.
Or Is it a P1 item cast say 100 isk and you need so many of them to make a P2 item. So many p2 items to make a p3 item until you get to a p4 item? In the real world it would be the latter as materials have a price and no one is going to sell them at a loss.
In eve however PI doesnt cost you anything for materials once you have paid for the Comand centers so people just keep undercutting each other until they sell there stuff thinking its free isk anyway so wheres the harm?

May be there shud be a cartel thats sets the prices but it could never work in game.

Just makes you think though. I Invested most of my Isk in PI even if theres no massive profit at least it will beat the tax which really can be seen as an inflation measure. The cost of the increased taxs have to be passed on so really it shud be a no brainer, but EVE isnt the real world.


Did you really just start a thread about the taxes on PI and then go on to post that "PI doesn't cost you anything once you have paid for the command centers?"

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
243636
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#8 - 2011-11-27 20:37:31 UTC
corestwo wrote:
243636 wrote:
Thats one thing thats always puzzled me. Is the price worked out from the bottom up or the top down?
I mean If a P4 items was worth 1,000,000 isk then the products below would have to total less than this with adiquate profit at each stage for the manufacturer to keep on doing it.
Or Is it a P1 item cast say 100 isk and you need so many of them to make a P2 item. So many p2 items to make a p3 item until you get to a p4 item? In the real world it would be the latter as materials have a price and no one is going to sell them at a loss.
In eve however PI doesnt cost you anything for materials once you have paid for the Comand centers so people just keep undercutting each other until they sell there stuff thinking its free isk anyway so wheres the harm?

May be there shud be a cartel thats sets the prices but it could never work in game.

Just makes you think though. I Invested most of my Isk in PI even if theres no massive profit at least it will beat the tax which really can be seen as an inflation measure. The cost of the increased taxs have to be passed on so really it shud be a no brainer, but EVE isnt the real world.


Did you really just start a thread about the taxes on PI and then go on to post that "PI doesn't cost you anything once you have paid for the command centers?"



Sorry I meant to have said people act like it doesnt cost you anything. It costs youi time when you could be doing something enjoyable Big smile
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#9 - 2011-11-28 03:54:10 UTC
The layer at the biggest risk for sharp increases is the P1s - instead of paying under 0.25% export tariffs (whatever 0.76 ISK/u worked out to), you'll now be paying 50 ISK/u for export in hi-sec and probably more like 75-100 ISK/u in lo-sec (depending on the residents). So prices will have to go up, especially on the low-priced P1 stuff to pay for the tariff. The 100-300 ISK/u P1 will probably go up to 200-400 ISK/u.

You'll definitely have to pay attention to import/export on P1/P2 - while you didn't have to pay attention at all before.

Most P2/P3/P4 production will move to hi-sec, if it wasn't there already, so it won't be hard to factor in a 5-10% tariff boost on each layer.

If you're trying to make Robotics, it may behoove you to go from P1->P3 on a single planet, in order to save the export/import tariff on moving the P2s around.

http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Colony_Management#Barren_Planet_.28P1_to_P3_Factories.29
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#10 - 2011-11-28 10:32:55 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
I stocked up, did you?

Everybody seems to be stocking up on PI goods while nobody seems to have plans to build COs...
Alisarina
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-11-28 11:07:58 UTC
El 1974 wrote:
Kara Books wrote:
I stocked up, did you?

Everybody seems to be stocking up on PI goods while nobody seems to have plans to build COs...


You don't need to build a POCO in high sec, thus they don't care aboutt hem due to stocking up means your going to either:

A: Use them in factory planets in high sec

B: Use them as part of making the new PoS fuel cubes

C: Resale baby! You will be hard pressed to actually loose ISK doing this if you do some homework before hand.


All of the above are not done in low/null sec, thus people don't give a toss either way about POCO's unless they are going to be getting hold of the BPC, making them and selling them on the market to those that cannot make them/unwilling to burn a slot to make them (After all teir 3 BC's will make MUCH more profit/slot than POCO's and possibly fuel cubes, though fuel cubes may well be more profitable..not too sure here).


Also finally there is the fact that POCO's are bad investments, at least for the first 1-3 months after they are released and everyone wants to go play 'whack a mole' with their new tier 3 BC's.

Just some food for thought.

Also for the record, I stocked up and have got all my factory worlds running full tilt to make what I suspect to be the better option.
Naraphim
#12 - 2011-11-30 05:41:57 UTC
Being kinda nerdy, I play Eve with a calculator and several custom excel spreadsheets - and I have found that taxes in highsec have gone up 952% for my production chain. I was previously paying 189 isk per unit of superconductors ((0.15*1200)+9)) and am now paying 1800 isk per unit ((0.75*1200)+900). [Everyone knows that vertically integrated colonies (that both extract and refine prior to export) pay fewer taxes. But these colonies also produce significantly fewer units overall compared with a combination of dedicated extractor colonies and dedicated refining colonies. The greater volume produced offset the higher taxes and allowed a higher net after-tax revenue per day.]
I not support the changes to the tax regime.
Low/Null sec already has better quality planets and now they have the potential for 0% tax from player owned customs Offices. Why? CCP has once again missed the point...there is a subgroup of the player base that plays only in highsec. By further disadvantaging these players you are undermining their interest in this game.

The counterintuitive is obvious to me.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#13 - 2011-11-30 06:05:41 UTC
Naraphim wrote:
By further disadvantaging these players you are undermining their interest in this game.


The disadvantage is temporary in my opinion. Prices have already begun to rise, and prices will reach a new equilibrium that once again includes the high sec players. I can't see low/null sec players with customs offices wanting to dump cheap PI goods on the market - that's not their game. If anything they are consumers of PI goods. Therefore they will be running their customs at 0% internally but also consuming internally. Everyone else will have to pay inflated rates through their customs or Concord/Interbus rates on other planets, so it will all work out in the end. If anything PI just got cheaper since the cost of setting up planets has not changed as far as I know.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#14 - 2011-11-30 06:09:50 UTC
Wait a couple of weeks.
Everything will go back to the same old profitability ratios, but all PI things will be more expensive.

All additional cost ends up tacked onto the consumer as soon as old stockpiles evaporate.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#15 - 2011-11-30 06:24:59 UTC
As long as CCP doesn't continuously index the PI prices and adjust the PI tariffs every month, the market will settle down within 2 weeks. Which means the new tariffs will probably end up back down around 3-6% of the market value instead of 8-10%. People will update their spreadsheets and things will settle back down to normal - with some new interesting advantages for those willing to put up POCOs and defend them.

However, if CCP starts boosting the tariffs every month/quarter - it could get a bit uglier as the market has to constantly deal with higher and higher tariffs.