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[BROKEN] Station Services in 0.0

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March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2014-02-17 11:08:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

The enemy have been told to us the stations cloning services and to make jump clones in it. So yes, thay have been told to exploit this bug.


in other words they were told to do what people were doing for years and without any CCP comments.

clearly here we have exploiting of a bug

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2014-02-17 11:10:38 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

The enemy have been told to us the stations cloning services and to make jump clones in it. So yes, thay have been told to exploit this bug.


in other words they were told to do what people were doing for years and without any CCP comments.

clearly here we have exploiting of a bug


Given that the services they are using are incapped, yes, they are exploiting a bug.

They shouldn't be banned for using it but it does need to be fixed.
september II
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2014-02-17 11:13:26 UTC
1. EXPLOITS

An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if:

a. Investigation shows that a player has employed the use of an exploit tactic despite a public announcement being made to alert players they will be banned for using it.


trololo , ban n3 leaders ;)
Tialano Utrigas
Running with Dogs
Out of the Blue.
#44 - 2014-02-17 11:13:47 UTC
There's no way, from the inside, to tell if the station services are incapped unless they dont perform their desired task. If they perform the required task, as far as anyone is concerned they're not incapped.

Therefore its not an exploit as you cant legitimately tell. (and a load of puppets screaming on forums is not required proof)

MAYBE...just maybe if you apply enough tears through the CFC majority owned CSM you can get it fixed on the 18th Feb in the Rubicon 1.2 Goon Tears release.

Have fun with the camp guys.

Most of us have taken the hastened pod express feature to go and enjoy ourselves elsewhere for a few weeks until you get bored.
Infiltrator2112
Untitled Goose Corporation
#45 - 2014-02-17 11:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Infiltrator2112
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
"Enemies are exploiting this!"(When everybody does this and everyone ever has been doing this and it realy can not be called an exploit anymore)
So is this an admission? Since station services are clearly not supposed to work when destroyed, you are admitting here that you do know they work while destroyed, and continue to use them anyway.

As for everyone else using it, it's clearly not been used very publicly otherwise this thread would have come up before. If you knew that others used this knowingly before, then you should have reported that. As for "everyone else did it, so I did too!", didn;t your mum ever say to you "if your friends jumped off of a bridge, would you do it too?". You are responsible for your own actions and the consequences of same.

Oh please, this is just ridiculous. Lol

Lucas Kell wrote:
Not true. It's hardly a huge feature, so I very much doubt it would be tough to fix. Chances are the reason it's not fixed is people haven't been reporting it. Most inside a station would just assume that the services are still up, and most outside the station wouldn't know people were using them. Like most exploits, it's only when a group starts using it on a large scale that it gets noticed, reported and fixed.

You mean a large group like everyone who ever was docked in a station with incapped services?


The problem has been brought up again and will be fixed at some point.
It is a nice thing to toy with at undock and helps people without a second jumpclone nearby to bring into 0-W to get a second Carrier out of the station, but it will not change the way this will end and what we will loose in any mayor way.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2014-02-17 11:27:31 UTC
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
The problem has been brought up again and will be fixed at some point.
…and in the meantime, it's an blatantly obvious exploit. It's pretty sad to see people trying to defend it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2014-02-17 11:30:05 UTC
Tialano Utrigas wrote:
There's no way, from the inside, to tell if the station services are incapped unless they dont perform their desired task. If they perform the required task, as far as anyone is concerned they're not incapped.

Therefore its not an exploit as you cant legitimately tell. (and a load of puppets screaming on forums is not required proof)



They have no hitpoints left, so we do know that they are incapped.


This wont be changing anything, hellcamp continues and this bug just means people will be entertaining the troops with things to shoot at but it is something that does need fixing quite badly.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2014-02-17 11:46:35 UTC
Can't wait to see what the GMs have to say about this.

Also:
iskflakes wrote:
Interdictor mechanics are broken with NPC stations too. This is a more important issue tbh.

I don't know why anyone at CCP thought it was a good change to remove the weapons timer from the interdiction sphere launcher.
It's inconvenient and annoying for sure, but in my experience it was never game breaking.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#49 - 2014-02-17 12:07:21 UTC
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
"Enemies are exploiting this!"(When everybody does this and everyone ever has been doing this and it realy can not be called an exploit anymore)
So is this an admission? Since station services are clearly not supposed to work when destroyed, you are admitting here that you do know they work while destroyed, and continue to use them anyway.

As for everyone else using it, it's clearly not been used very publicly otherwise this thread would have come up before. If you knew that others used this knowingly before, then you should have reported that. As for "everyone else did it, so I did too!", didn;t your mum ever say to you "if your friends jumped off of a bridge, would you do it too?". You are responsible for your own actions and the consequences of same.

Oh please, this is just ridiculous. Lol
Keep digging. You acknowledge it shouldn't be the way it is, you acknowledge that it's a bug, you acknowledge that it's now publicly known, yet you continue to advocate it's use.

Tippia wrote:
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
The problem has been brought up again and will be fixed at some point.
…and in the meantime, it's an blatantly obvious exploit. It's pretty sad to see people trying to defend it.
QFT

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Gary Bell
Therapy.
The Initiative.
#50 - 2014-02-17 12:12:42 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Can't wait to see what the GMs have to say about this.

Also:
iskflakes wrote:
Interdictor mechanics are broken with NPC stations too. This is a more important issue tbh.

I don't know why anyone at CCP thought it was a good change to remove the weapons timer from the interdiction sphere launcher.
It's inconvenient and annoying for sure, but in my experience it was never game breaking.


They fixed it so you can still bubble jump on gates.. Its super super annoying but with it the other way you would literally kill dictors as a role.. they need a timer for undock like 10 or 30 seconds..

I feel your pain though.. Markus Dixon has been spreading his A.D.D all over K3 for like a week now 12 hours a day
Infiltrator2112
Untitled Goose Corporation
#51 - 2014-02-17 12:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Infiltrator2112
Lucas Kell wrote:
Keep digging. You acknowledge it shouldn't be the way it is, you acknowledge that it's a bug, you acknowledge that it's now publicly known, yet you continue to advocate it's use.


Yes, that is all true and I never said anything else.

But give me one reason why we should not use it. At the moment it is a regular game mechanic that does not seem to work as it was intended.
You and your coalition said yourselfes that using a broken mechanic is the only way getting it fixed, so how about giving us a little "thank you" for fixing it?

And I still believe that it can not be fixed that easily because if it was that trivial, CCP would have changed it already. It is simply impossible to imagine CCP not knowing about this for years. They are not new to the business and have a lot of experienced programmers after all. Thinking this has not been fixed because of "N3-Devs" seems like a lot of tinfoil.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#52 - 2014-02-17 12:22:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
But give me one reason why we should not use it.
Because it's an obvious exploit.

Let's see what the policy section has to say about those:

ToS §23: “You may not exploit any bug in EVE Online to gain an unfair advantage over other players.”

Suspension & Ban policy §1: “An immediate permanent ban of an account may result if: a) Investigation shows that a player has employed the use of an exploit tactic despite a public announcement being made to alert players they will be banned for using it. b) A player who has been previously warned for exploiting and continues to exploit, whether using the same exploit or another. […] e) A player renders himself invulnerable through the use of a bug.”

Quote:
And I still believe that it can not be fixed that easily because if it was that trivial, CCP would have changed it already. It is simply impossible to imagine CCP not knowing about this for years.
No it's not impossible. We're doing it right now. All you have to do is imagine that people prefer exploiting it over having it fixed.

Hmm… wait, there's something in the policies about that as well:

Suspension & Ban policy §1: “Severe offences may result in an immediate ban without warning; however, warnings may be given for first time offenses, followed by account suspensions of varying degree and ultimately a permanent ban if a player: […] c) Is aware of an exploitable bug and fails to report it to Game Masters and/or distributes the information to other players.”
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#53 - 2014-02-17 12:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Tippia wrote:
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
The problem has been brought up again and will be fixed at some point.
…and in the meantime, it's an blatantly obvious exploit. It's pretty sad to see people trying to defend it.

Oh no one's defending it, we're just ridiculing the whole "fix it now, now, now!" business when this particular bug has been around for years and no one gave a single sht. Only when this particular bug begun to inconvenience a particular coalition did it become a priority. Roll And as many in this thread pointed out, eve has no shortage of bugs that currently affect many aspects of eve (fac war, nullsec, etc.).

Personally, I can see no reason why this bug should get priority over the fac war agro bug (of course, ideally, they should both be fixed).

Also, you'll have a hard time pushing the exploit angle because (1) you can't tell from within the station if something is reinforced, and (2) when you undock, you have to actually check to see if the station services themselves are reinforced, which is something that is quite easy to miss, especially when grid has a ton of bubbles and other nasty things.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2014-02-17 12:30:29 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Also, you'll have a hard time pushing the exploit angle because (1) you can't tell from within the station if something is reinforced, and (2) when you undock, you have to actually check to see if the station services themselves are reinforced, which is something that is quite easy to miss, especially when grid has a ton of bubbles and other nasty things.

That rather sounds like it's fairly easy to push: not only is it pretty obvious when this situation can arise, you can also trivially check whether or not the service modules are reinforced.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#55 - 2014-02-17 12:31:19 UTC
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
Yes, that is all true and I never said anything else.

But give me one reason why we should not use it.
OK, how about this:
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
At the moment it is a regular game mechanic that does not seem to work as it was intended.
Tada! Reason.


Infiltrator2112 wrote:
You and your coalition said yourselfes that using a broken mechanic is the only way getting it fixed, so how about giving us a little "thank you" for fixing it?
The difference is, most of the mechanics we overuse are mechanics that are balance flaws. Not blatant bugs which clearly shouldn't be there. If there was suddenly a way to do 3 billion damage with a bomb for example, overusing that would be abusing an exploit.

Infiltrator2112 wrote:
And I still believe that it can not be fixed that easily because if it was that trivial, CCP would have changed it already. It is simply impossible to imagine CCP not knowing about this for years. They are not new to the business and have a lot of experienced programmers after all. Thinking this has not been fixed because of "N3-Devs" seems like a lot of tinfoil.
It's perfectly reasonable to think that this has not been know about, at least not by the right people. I can't imagine there's been that many times where the opportunity to see if it's working has presented itself. I seriously doubt that a fix for this would take years, and like you said, the programmers are experienced. If they've known for years, and it's simply been unable to be fixed in all that time, that would make them pretty incompetent.

As for "N3 devs", I tend to steer clear of conspiracy theories so you won't get that from me.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#56 - 2014-02-17 12:31:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Also, you'll have a hard time pushing the exploit angle because (1) you can't tell from within the station if something is reinforced, and (2) when you undock, you have to actually check to see if the station services themselves are reinforced, which is something that is quite easy to miss, especially when grid has a ton of bubbles and other nasty things.

That rather sounds like it's fairly easy to push: not only is it pretty obvious when this situation can arise, you can also trivially check whether or not the service modules are reinforced.

Sure, and every single time anyone has ever docked at an outpost over the last 2 years, they have dutifully checked station services before docking.

Yeah, good luck with that one. Roll
Infiltrator2112
Untitled Goose Corporation
#57 - 2014-02-17 12:35:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Infiltrator2112
PotatoOverdose wrote:

Oh no one's defending it, we're just ridiculing the whole "fix it now, now, now!" business when this particular bug has been around for years and no one gave a single sht. Only when this particular bug begun to inconvenience a particular coalition did it become a priority. Roll And as many in this thread pointed out, eve has no shortage of bugs that currently affect many aspects of eve (fac war, nullsec, etc.).

Personally, I can see no reason why this bug should get priority over the fac war agro bug (of course, ideally, they should both be fixed).


This.


Lucas Kell wrote:
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
Yes, that is all true and I never said anything else.

But give me one reason why we should not use it.
OK, how about this:
Infiltrator2112 wrote:
At the moment it is a regular game mechanic that does not seem to work as it was intended.
Tada! Reason.

That never seemed to be a reason for you or anyone else not using any broken mechanics until now Roll


Also I doubt CCP saying that this is an exploit would be helpfull, since most of the uses are not visibile to anyone and thus can not be reported. CCP would have to control everyone ever logged in at a station with incapped services, which is simply impossible.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#58 - 2014-02-17 12:36:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Sure, and every single time anyone has ever docked at an outpost over the last 2 years, they have dutifully checked station services before docking.
They certainly could take the time to do so when it is blatantly obvious that the services are a prime target for attack for the massive fleet outside. Outside of that, it hardly even matters but when it matters, it matters a lot and is worth looking for so the GMs don't come around and do nasty things to you, wouldn't you say?


Oh, and what was that about “no one's defending it” again?

Infiltrator2112 wrote:
CCP would have to control everyone ever logged in at a station with incapped services, which is simply impossible.
“Impossible” as in “pretty simple single SQL query”.
Kogh Ayon
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2014-02-17 12:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kogh Ayon
It's an quite obvious bug and the SOTC of N3 suggests hundreds of players to exploit it.

This bug may has been ignored for a long time, due to the lack of importance to major players. However, the significance of the amount of people who's now exploiting the bug should lift it to the top priority.
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#60 - 2014-02-17 12:45:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Sure, and every single time anyone has ever docked at an outpost over the last 2 years, they have dutifully checked station services before docking.
They certainly could take the time to do so when it is blatantly obvious that the services are a prime target for attack for the massive fleet outside. Outside of that, it hardly even matters but when it matters, it matters a lot and is worth looking for so the GMs don't come around and do nasty things to you, wouldn't you say?


Oh, and what was that about “no one's defending it” again?

Best of luck in your current endeavor of getting all of N3 banned.

I shall be quite surprised (and richly amused Cool) if we see but a single ban come of this.