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Allow the Nestor to fit Covops Cloak as was originally intended

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Mario Putzo
#21 - 2014-02-16 00:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Neither the stratios or the astero allow the creation of black ops bridges. Nobody who is advocating the fitting of a covert ops cloak to a Nestor is advocating that it becomes a BLOPS bridging vessel. That is an entirely separate function.

Now that I have allayed your concerns on that score, are you able to comment on the reasonableness of allowing it to warp cloaked ONLY. In the same way that the smaller sisters ships can?

I fear that this discussion has too often been polluted by feat of BLOPS bridging, when no-one is arguing for it. It's not on the table.

It's not creating bridges that's an unwanted side effect, it's being able to bridge battleships through a blops.


Can't do this anyway. Black Ops ships don't have enough Fuel to be able to Bridge Battleship Mass.

I want to see the OP make a logical case for the Nestor actually having a Cov Ops cloak, Since he seems content shitting on everyone elses opinion. Id like to ask the OP why the Nestor SHOULD have the Cov Ops cloak.

and no "I want" it isn't an argument.

What role would it allow the Nestor to perform if it has a Covops cloak, and is this role already being done by an existing ship or ships?
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#22 - 2014-02-16 00:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Mario Putzo wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Neither the stratios or the astero allow the creation of black ops bridges. Nobody who is advocating the fitting of a covert ops cloak to a Nestor is advocating that it becomes a BLOPS bridging vessel. That is an entirely separate function.

Now that I have allayed your concerns on that score, are you able to comment on the reasonableness of allowing it to warp cloaked ONLY. In the same way that the smaller sisters ships can?

I fear that this discussion has too often been polluted by feat of BLOPS bridging, when no-one is arguing for it. It's not on the table.

It's not creating bridges that's an unwanted side effect, it's being able to bridge battleships through a blops.


Can't do this anyway. Black Ops ships don't have enough Fuel to be able to Bridge Battleship Mass.

They don't? Well, fair point then...the more you know >_<

thhief ghabmoef
Mario Putzo
#23 - 2014-02-16 00:53:09 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Neither the stratios or the astero allow the creation of black ops bridges. Nobody who is advocating the fitting of a covert ops cloak to a Nestor is advocating that it becomes a BLOPS bridging vessel. That is an entirely separate function.

Now that I have allayed your concerns on that score, are you able to comment on the reasonableness of allowing it to warp cloaked ONLY. In the same way that the smaller sisters ships can?

I fear that this discussion has too often been polluted by feat of BLOPS bridging, when no-one is arguing for it. It's not on the table.

It's not creating bridges that's an unwanted side effect, it's being able to bridge battleships through a blops.


Can't do this anyway. Black Ops ships don't have enough Fuel to be able to Bridge Battleship Mass.

They don't? Well, fair point then...the more you know >_<


Ya despite all the tears that come up about them, they actually aren't that strong or powerful. They can send SOME Frigate Sized ships, a FEW Cruiser size ships, and themselves. They are really limited in that regard to be honest. Not like a Titan for example that can bridge whole fleets, BLOPS ships can bridge like a Dozen or so each.
Veritaal
Veri-Tech Tax Haven
#24 - 2014-02-16 00:53:47 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


This thread is not asking for the Nestor to be a bridging ship. This is not part of the proposal in the OP. This thread kindly requests that you either support the OP or explain why it is bad for Eve, using reasoned argument and empirical data.



I guess I didn't make myself clear.

I don't want the nestor to be a bridging ship, that role is filled. I was talking about the Nestor being able to be bridged by a black ops ship, just like every other cov-ops cloak capable ship.

I think that giving the Nestor the ability warp and move cloaked would be wonderful. I don't see why it was decided that the Nestor would be denied this capability.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#25 - 2014-02-16 00:58:21 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ya despite all the tears that come up about them, they actually aren't that strong or powerful. They can send SOME Frigate Sized ships, a FEW Cruiser size ships, and themselves. They are really limited in that regard to be honest. Not like a Titan for example that can bridge whole fleets, BLOPS ships can bridge like a Dozen or so each.

More than a dozen, by far. The CFC has utilized full 250-man stealth bomber fleets on occasion, which get moved around by blops ships.

thhief ghabmoef
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-02-16 01:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Mario Putzo wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Neither the stratios or the astero allow the creation of black ops bridges. Nobody who is advocating the fitting of a covert ops cloak to a Nestor is advocating that it becomes a BLOPS bridging vessel. That is an entirely separate function.

Now that I have allayed your concerns on that score, are you able to comment on the reasonableness of allowing it to warp cloaked ONLY. In the same way that the smaller sisters ships can?

I fear that this discussion has too often been polluted by feat of BLOPS bridging, when no-one is arguing for it. It's not on the table.

It's not creating bridges that's an unwanted side effect, it's being able to bridge battleships through a blops.


Can't do this anyway. Black Ops ships don't have enough Fuel to be able to Bridge Battleship Mass.

I want to see the OP make a logical case for the Nestor actually having a Cov Ops cloak, Since he seems content shitting on everyone elses opinion. Id like to ask the OP why the Nestor SHOULD have the Cov Ops cloak.

and no "I want" it isn't an argument.

What role would it allow the Nestor to perform if it has a Covops cloak, and is this role already being done by an existing ship or ships?


Forgive me if it seems that I am being negative towards some arguments. This is not what I am doing, I am merely seeking to keep the thread on track.

The history of this is that the dev team conceived the Nestor as a covert-capable ship in line with the other two sisters ships. They designed the hull with the ring for this reason and even wrote a ship description which referenced it (the one before the description that is currently on the Nestor, which was changed at the last minute).

When pressed for an explanation, the dev team stated that with a covert cloak the Nestor would be overpowered and that it would compete with BLOPS in the same niche.

I see no evidence for either position, so respectfully am looking to build support for them to be a little braver in their decision making, and return the Nestor to what it was clearly (to me) designed to be.

To be clear, the idea of a covops RR battleship was not mine, it was the Dev Team's. I am simply asking that they go through with that design decision and make the Nestor a little more aspirational, since at the moment it's fairly clear that it's an undesirable ship with a very few niche (and in my view, contrived) roles.

Consider a sister's of eve fleet. They bring asteros and stratios' and can move around cloaked, all well and good. Now they want to bring some logi and... their entire fleet is gimped because the sisters support ships stick out like a sore thumb on d-scan, giving the entire fleet away.

It's illogical that an organisation would field such a ship.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mario Putzo
#27 - 2014-02-16 01:09:49 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ya despite all the tears that come up about them, they actually aren't that strong or powerful. They can send SOME Frigate Sized ships, a FEW Cruiser size ships, and themselves. They are really limited in that regard to be honest. Not like a Titan for example that can bridge whole fleets, BLOPS ships can bridge like a Dozen or so each.

More than a dozen, by far. The CFC has utilized full 250-man stealth bomber fleets on occasion, which get moved around by blops ships.


Ya if you just use bombers you can send quite a bit. Recons take up a lot though. (Think you can do up to like 120 Bombers with all 5 skills...been a while)

I was talking more in a "fleet" sense.
Mario Putzo
#28 - 2014-02-16 01:13:36 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Consider a sister's of eve fleet. They bring asteros and stratios' and can move around cloaked, all well and good. Now they want to bring some logi and... their entire fleet is gimped because the sisters support ships stick out like a sore thumb on d-scan, giving the entire fleet away.

It's illogical that an organisation would field such a ship.


But what is the role you want it to fill, and why would the Cov Ops cloak be required for the Nestor to meet that role.

"Because the Dev Team had it like that" isn't a reason, no more than the "because it might be OP" was a reason to remove it.

What role do you envision, and why does it need the Covops cloak. "Because the lore" doesn't cut it.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#29 - 2014-02-16 01:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Mario Putzo wrote:
What role would it allow the Nestor to perform if it has a Covops cloak, and is this role already being done by an existing ship or ships?

"The Nestor has by far the smallest mass of the battleship class, giving it potential usage as a wormhole ship... The lesser mass also increases the effect of afterburners and microwarpdrives, meaning the ship is somewhat speedy… As with the Stratios and the Astero, the Nestor features an exploration and hacking bonus, enabling it to be used as both a combat and an exploration platform."

Wormhole… exploration. Except uninsurable @ $1.6-billion ISK+, who's going to use it there without a Covert Ops cloak. For that matter, I'm not entirely sure where you'd use it period - since the Nestor basically advertises "gank me". I'm still waiting for all the Nestor proponents to actually put their ISK where their mouth is and pony up for one… I actually did own a Nestor (albeit briefly), if only to prove to myself that it's entirely useless.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-02-16 01:21:33 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Consider a sister's of eve fleet. They bring asteros and stratios' and can move around cloaked, all well and good. Now they want to bring some logi and... their entire fleet is gimped because the sisters support ships stick out like a sore thumb on d-scan, giving the entire fleet away.

It's illogical that an organisation would field such a ship.


But what is the role you want it to fill, and why would the Cov Ops cloak be required for the Nestor to meet that role.

"Because the Dev Team had it like that" isn't a reason, no more than the "because it might be OP" was a reason to remove it.

What role do you envision, and why does it need the Covops cloak. "Because the lore" doesn't cut it.


Well, I think there is some merit in following through the dev team's original vision. Somone in there clearly had a role in mind and I think it would be interesting for that vision to at least make it to the test server.

The lore is a reasonable starting point for a ship's capabilities. Each organisation has a doctrine or modus operandi and it would be illogical for them to commision ships that did not meet their needs.

My view of the Nestor, as interpreted from dev-written lore is that the sisters are interested in deep space exploration, avoiding a fight when they can, but being combat capable if they must. The astero and stratios meet the recon and "combat if necessary" needs but there is no logistics vessel that they can field to support them. Hence the decision to commission the Nestor - a covert logistics ship with sufficient firepower to defend itself for long enough for support to arrive.

This seems to me to be a sensible thing to commission.

There have been other suggestions too: refitting bays and clone vats. These too would make sense in the narrative, but these are separate to the discussion and I'm not asking for them.


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#31 - 2014-02-16 01:55:07 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
have been other suggestions too: refitting bays and clone vats. These too would make sense in the narrative, but these are separate to the discussion and I'm not asking for them.

Refitting bays and clone vats would certainly make them a lot more interesting for wormhole space. Especially with the Covert Ops cloak...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-02-16 02:17:17 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Ya despite all the tears that come up about them, they actually aren't that strong or powerful. They can send SOME Frigate Sized ships, a FEW Cruiser size ships, and themselves. They are really limited in that regard to be honest. Not like a Titan for example that can bridge whole fleets, BLOPS ships can bridge like a Dozen or so each.

More than a dozen, by far. The CFC has utilized full 250-man stealth bomber fleets on occasion, which get moved around by blops ships.



Takes a couple tanks of fuel to jump out 255 bombers.

I think that with a fully cargo extended and rigged Sin I can get something like 130 bombers off before I have to refill the fuel bay.....less usually because there are always a couple of "those guys" that can't turn their damned afterburners off.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#33 - 2014-02-16 07:04:08 UTC
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
Yes.



Hell yes.

Without an ability to travel cloaked, what possible, sensible player, would consider for a nanosecond using one in wormhole space.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-02-17 08:22:30 UTC
bump, since the OP received some likes during the night.

May I have a reasoned response from a Dev please?

A reasoned response is one in which all assertions are justified by provable facts.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Hunter Arngrahm
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-02-17 09:23:03 UTC
Honestly, just give the Nestor the Black Ops cloak bonus. A Covert Ops cloak would be horrifyingly overpowered on a battleship.

As some have mentioned, though, making it a battlecruiser is actually a good idea, but as it stands I don't think that'd be a good idea as the ship already exists ingame. I don't think (Now I could be wrong, I'm not well versed in EVE history) there's ever been a ship that magically became another ship class, unless you want to count the Prophecy in fluff. It would have worked nicely as a battlecruiser capable of fitting large remote armor reps with a bonus, but that ship has sailed.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#36 - 2014-02-17 09:25:43 UTC
Yes! Covert Ops Sentry Platform would be terrific!

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Ele Rebellion
Vertex Armada
The Initiative.
#37 - 2014-02-17 09:41:35 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Neither the stratios or the astero allow the creation of black ops bridges. Nobody who is advocating the fitting of a covert ops cloak to a Nestor is advocating that it becomes a BLOPS bridging vessel. That is an entirely separate function.

Now that I have allayed your concerns on that score, are you able to comment on the reasonableness of allowing it to warp cloaked ONLY. In the same way that the smaller sisters ships can?

I fear that this discussion has too often been polluted by feat of BLOPS bridging, when no-one is arguing for it. It's not on the table.

It's not creating bridges that's an unwanted side effect, it's being able to bridge battleships through a blops.





TBH, if it has to be changed, I think it should have the same bonuses regarding cloaking as the current black ops, and both the nestor and the blops ships be able to use prop mods (or at least afterburners) while cloaked. Would satisfy the apparent need to put the nestor in line with the others, and would give a needed buff to the blops without making them OP.



BlOp Dropping battleships no thanx.. Especially if Covert Ops cynos get allowed back into high sec.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-02-17 09:52:16 UTC
Hunter Arngrahm wrote:
Honestly, just give the Nestor the Black Ops cloak bonus. A Covert Ops cloak would be horrifyingly overpowered on a battleship.



Please kindly provide a reasoned analysis, backed with empirical data that supports the view that the Nestor warping cloaked is "horrifyingly overpowered" compared to say, a Stratios.

Please kindly provide a definition for the term "horrifyingly overpowered". It seems to be a subjective notion rather than something we can measure.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#39 - 2014-02-17 15:46:25 UTC
The request for 'empirical data' is just an excuse to not accept any argument you dislike. As nothing even similar has ever been allowed in game, even among the BLOP Battleships, no empirical data is possible.

While I dont personally care how the nullsec folks shoot at eachother, I can see where this ship would be an exceedingly powerful ship with a covops cloak, as it would then largely negate one of the key balances of the other covops ships- that being the weak tank.

Given the lack of any counter to cloaking itself this ship would magnify the combat potential of a cloaked fleet to unexplored levels. Lacking the ability to jump or bridge it is not at its fullest potential, but that it has no reason to decloak ever once in a given system until it is doing its damage and supporting a fleet of similar ships would still open it up to what I would see as fairly abusive power levels. Its only vunerable moments would be in active combat and while using a gate. Potentially this ship could operate indefinitely behind enemy lines with almost complete freedom to inflict damage and perfect safety when not inflicting it.

This is at its core a larger issue with cloaking in general. The issue would not exist if cloaking itself was not so freely abusable due to its nature as a perfect defense, and if that were not the case then BS Logi ship built around its use would not be so abusive.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#40 - 2014-02-17 17:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
I don't think a CovOps BS would be OP. They are still slow to align and can be decloaked easily enough by an inty or other fast tackle.

edit: Frankly, a covops blops would be worse because of its ability to literally flip the bird at gate camps everywhere via jump drive. Just roll a covops frigate through the camp and no worries.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY