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I want to get into Jump Freigther Construction (Low/Hi Sec)
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LeJen
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-02-17 06:27:57 UTC
The goal seems simple enough. I need the required skills to build from the blueprint. I need the skills to fly it after construction. And before construction even begins, I need to get the materials, some of which can't be found on the market.

Veterans, is it worth it? I see the +3B profit @ eve-cost for Anshars and Nomads, but am I missing something? Some people are offering BPCs of jump freigthers are less than 300mil. That looks like a bargin price, but is it really?

I don't mind spending the next 9days training the skills just to build a JF. I don't mind spending another 9days just to fly the JF I choose while I wait for the JF complete it's 2week construction. If I can earn +3b for each JF I build within a month, I may have found the next best boost to my wallet.

Please share your thoughts and any advice that might be helpful. Thanks.
Cap James Tkirk
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#2 - 2014-02-17 07:17:52 UTC
The truth is no one is going to give you the secrets to their production chains, why would they it just means more competition. use Isk Per Hour and try to figure it out on what to build.
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-02-17 07:22:14 UTC
Checking eve-cost myself, yeah, it shows 3B profit per item. A quick check of the components shows it to be so full of crap that its eyes are brown. For example, when checking Anshars, it costs out Capital Ion Thrusters at 10k isk each. But if you look at eve-cost for those capital ion thrusters, it says they cost 518k each to make. With a -1 ME bpc, that's a 260M error just with the first part I checked.

Check those BPC very carefully. Last time I looked into making jump freighters for my corp mates, what looked like bargains (some JF with -6 ME) turned out to cost 400-500M more than purchasing a ready-built jump freighter in Jita. When I did the math, purchasing a -1 ME bpc would let me manufacture a jump freighter for 400-500M less than purchasing an already made JF in Jita.

You know that line in that Christmas song about Santa having a list and checking it twice? You need to double check every single result from every website. Probably the most accurate one is Fuzzworks, from Steve Ronuken.
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/calc.php
Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2014-02-17 07:22:44 UTC
Whoever told you JF's have a 3 billion isk profit is delusional at best. They average 300-500m each, that is with building every t2 part and the t1 freighter included.

The cost to invent a bpc varies with how much a t1 freighter bpc costs, but is usually around 2.5x the price of a t1 bpc. This can be anywhere from 150-300m depending on the market that month.

You will probably want a separate character building than the one flying it... none of the skills overlap between building and flying a JF. It is possible to do a production line with 1 builder, but at best you will be getting 1 JF a month built. With 2 builders you can get up to 4+. This is with building all components yourself, if you just buy the t1 freighter to use then cut the times in half.

Not sure where you are getting 9 days to fly a JF... It takes a lot of capital skills that take months (yes months) to get to 4 and 5. The skills to build a JF vary depending on whether you want to invent your own bpcs. If you do invent your own bpc's prepare to fail multiple times, with very good skills the invention chance is still only ~30%.

If you are building the components yourself, you will probably want bpo's. T2 comp bpo's are decently cheap. The capital parts bpo's and freighter bpc's are not cheap. You will need an initial 5-6b invested in materials for each JF you are building. Most of the moon goo can only be acquired from jita, as no other hub really trades in goo or t2 components.

JF's are one of the most complicated things to build in eve due to being both T2 and capital ships.
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-02-17 07:28:11 UTC
For capital ship construction, probably the best blog to read is K162space. The author of that blog has a bunch of posts on capital construction that are very interesting. I strongly recommend skimming through the past 3 years of posts. Keep in mind that some of the info has been superseded by changes in patches, but otherwise the guy is several years ahead of where you (and I) are trying to be.
http://k162space.com/
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2014-02-17 07:55:30 UTC
I used to build JF. Lots of them. I caused the price on freighter BPC to more than double while I was building them, then the BPC price plummeted when I stopped.

I stopped building JF, because:
* They are a huge PITA to invent. My worst streak of failed inventions lasted over a month without one success on around 50 attempts. "The definition of insanity is ..." My mega-industry friend Proton Power questioned my sanity as the losses grew.
* The market was flooded by other producers who were very aggressive with undercutting (i.e. JF were a good deal when there were only 8 for sale in Jita, and nobody bothered to undercut).
* The average profit on a JF is roughly the same as the invention cost. It is hard to recoup failed invention losses with such a small number being produced.

Unless you have a market where you can sell them easily at a good mark-up, I would strongly recommend against building JF. They can be a huge ISK loss.

Also beware that people tend to "rent" (buy, use, sell) JF rather than buy them and hold onto them.
Dedaf
United Brothers Of Eve
#7 - 2014-02-17 07:59:31 UTC
It is very unlikely you will find any item giving 3Bill profit in 14-30days time, it would be too good to be true, and then its oftne not.
According to my tool, the build price is around 6bill +- a few 100m, depending on which jita price statistic you use.

try out my tool here, which will show you the build price depending on your skills and blueprint characteristic.

Want to know what is best to mine or build at which cost? then try out Dedaf's Industrial Tool http://dedafsindustrialtool.blogspot.dk/
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#8 - 2014-02-17 14:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
3bn isk profit per JF, that's a good one.

Huttan Funaila wrote:
You know that line in that Christmas song about Santa having a list and checking it twice? You need to double check every single result from every website. Probably the most accurate one is Fuzzworks, from Steve Ronuken.
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/calc.php


Agreed that fuzzworks is brilliant, but for t2 and capitals, (i'm pretty sure) it bases the profit on component purchase cost, not component build cost. As capital producers and t2 producers tend to manufacture their own components, the Jita sell value can be off by quite a bit.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Erik Sokarad
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-02-19 14:22:00 UTC
first of all, for serious construction you need to build a spreadsheet and look at all of your costs. Excel is good for this, just start by listing out everything and then looking at the supply chain for each item.

the key point here is not what the total profit is, but rather what the % profit margin you have per ship produced, including costs from BPO, research, and manufacturing slot. profit margin is the most important point, and should include the time per transaction. how many do you have to build to pay off the BPO? and how much capital do you have to invest to get the BPO and build one?

dont start your construction with the big stuff, practice by building smaller BPO stuff first. this will help you learn to use the system with a smaller cost, so you can find holes in your plan.

to make the best ISK, you will need a POS for manufacturing. a POS gives you a discount on materials needed, as well as providing you slots to research. if your corp already has a POS then use that, but if you dont have one then you will need both high standings with one faction and the skill to anchor a POS, and the money to build and fuel it.

and then you have to consider your hauling route to get the finished product to market from where you build it. as well as the haul to get the parts to the manufacturing slot. there are a lot of logistics involved, and to make ISK you need to figure those out before you start buying parts to build with.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-02-19 14:37:42 UTC
Erik Sokarad wrote:
a POS gives you a discount on materials needed, as well as providing you slots to research.


POS assembly arrays give you a reduction in time required for a manufacturing job, not in materials required. Advanced ship arrays (for T2 ships) increase the materials required.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#11 - 2014-02-19 15:22:50 UTC
Erik Sokarad wrote:

the key point here is not what the total profit is, but rather what the % profit margin you have per ship produced, including costs from BPO, research, and manufacturing slot. profit margin is the most important point, and should include the time per transaction. how many do you have to build to pay off the BPO? and how much capital do you have to invest to get the BPO and build one?


Don't forget build times. They are non-trivial, and they determine how many slots you can use. What I do is assume i can produce all components on an alt, leaving 10 slots for invention and 10 for manufacturing on the high-sp character. Then I do a rough calculation for each decryptor that accounts for invention success rate, production time with PE, and then decides what the maximum isk/day, based on having only 10 slots each (if margins are wide, the best % margin may not be the best profit). With some decryptors the invention is limiting, with others the manufacturing slots are limiting. However, even then you get a somewhat idealized setup. You can't be available to submit jobs constantly throughout the day forever, you may find that with your schedule, you can better use your mfg capacity with a 24 hour build time, while a 36 hour build time might result in more time where your lines are idle. However, the bigger the ship, the longer the build times, the less an issue this is. On the flip side, these jobs make less isk per hour than an ideally mananaged production chain for smaller ships.

Quote:
and then you have to consider your hauling route to get the finished product to market from where you build it. as well as the haul to get the parts to the manufacturing slot. there are a lot of logistics involved, and to make ISK you need to figure those out before you start buying parts to build with.


Yeah, and this depends a lot on where you want to buy and where you want to sell, and how often you wish to do so. In these situations, having more capital means you can purchase materials in larger quantities less often. You really want to avoid running out of stuff and needing to run to jita every other day.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#12 - 2014-02-20 21:57:15 UTC
One time bump to fix forum.
Nicole va Tefairfoutre
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#13 - 2014-02-22 16:51:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicole va Tefairfoutre
Huttan Funaila wrote:
Checking eve-cost myself, yeah, it shows 3B profit per item. A quick check of the components shows it to be so full of crap that its eyes are brown. For example, when checking Anshars, it costs out Capital Ion Thrusters at 10k isk each. But if you look at eve-cost for those capital ion thrusters, it says they cost 518k each to make. With a -1 ME bpc, that's a 260M error just with the first part I checked.

Check those BPC very carefully. Last time I looked into making jump freighters for my corp mates, what looked like bargains (some JF with -6 ME) turned out to cost 400-500M more than purchasing a ready-built jump freighter in Jita. When I did the math, purchasing a -1 ME bpc would let me manufacture a jump freighter for 400-500M less than purchasing an already made JF in Jita.

You know that line in that Christmas song about Santa having a list and checking it twice? You need to double check every single result from every website. Probably the most accurate one is Fuzzworks, from Steve Ronuken.
https://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/calc.php



eve- cost is accurate with correct settings. I recommend to use Jita sell orders for components an Jita buy orders for end product. and the calculation uses ME 0 / PE 0 as default which is only appropriate for the T2 BPO club members ;)