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Low Sec Sentry Gun Mechanics, how do they work?

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Wormhole Wormholes
Wormholes WH
#1 - 2014-02-14 03:49:05 UTC
Greetings,


Question on Low sec Sentry Guns, and how do they work / agro people.



Here is something just recently happened and I dont understand how they can get away with this ..



Pirate Attacks player
Pirate gets attacked by Sentry Guns
Pirate Warps out to 350 KM
Comes back in Sentry de agro'ed
Player dead
Player goes to station
Comes back, Pirate is Free to attack again with no Sentry Agro?

Why does he have no sentry gun agro that second time?

Does player need to leave system and come back?

Is there a invisible agro timer?

Question
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2 - 2014-02-14 03:57:03 UTC
You forgot the bit where "player shoots pirate".

When you shot the pirate back, you started a "Limited Engagement Timer". This is by default an aqua coloured timer, accompanied by the pirate turning a blinky aqua in the overview.


  1. Pirate Attacks player (pirate gains a GCC timer, sentry guns will shoot)
  2. Pirate gets attacked by Sentry Guns (because pirate gained a GCC timer)
  3. Player shoots pirate (pirate and player gain Limited Engagement flag and may freely shoot each other until timer runs down)
  4. Pirate Warps out to 350 KM (sentry guns stop shooting)
  5. Pirate returns with Sentry de agreed (pirate still has GCC timer, but sentries will only start shooting when you gain the timer, not when you have it or refresh it by shooting)
  6. Player dead (because pirate and player had a Limited Engagement timer active)
  7. Player goes to station
  8. Player cones back to gate, Pirate is Free to attack again with no Sentry Agro? (because the Limited Engagement timer is still running)


It's worth noting that initiating a duel also starts a limited engagement timer. Until that timer runs down, the participants are free to shoot each other. Limited engagements do not end when someone's ship blows up. The timer keeps ticking down (and from memory is refreshed when one party shoots the other).

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Wormhole Wormholes
Wormholes WH
#3 - 2014-02-14 04:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Wormhole Wormholes
Hey, DO NOT CHANGE MY EXAMPLE



I did not shoot at the pirate -


I understand the part were a pirate can warp out to 350KM or a safe spot and come back to not have sentry gun agro...


the part I dont get is when I can die / reship and go back to gate, the Pirate doesn't reacquire agro from the Sentries and is free to shoot me.

I dont have a limited engagement timer going...
Genseric Tollaris
Hard Cog Industry
#4 - 2014-02-14 04:56:38 UTC
I'm familiar with the scenario you describe. Don't know why it works that way, but I've known about it for about a year. Not sure what would reset the guns but I'd imagine a session change would do it.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#5 - 2014-02-14 07:54:09 UTC
Interesting. Is there a timer before the 'pirate' is reset to naughty for the guns or do they need to leave grid again/session timer?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-02-14 13:43:38 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Answer is simple.

You get sentry aggression on ACTIVATION of your suspect / GCC timer.

Pirate killed you. You came back while he still had his initial flag and thus it didnt CREATE a new one but extended his old one. Because this was still the initial timer the gate guns didnt see the 2nd fight as a new aggression but as a continuation of the fight. The same would have happened if you would have warped to a safe and back.

If you would have came back on field AFTER his timer ran out (15 min since last unjustified aggression) he would have gotten a NEW flag and the guns would have re-aggressed him.

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Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#7 - 2014-02-14 20:15:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Seraph Essael
Yup, basically if you warp off and warp back again after the initial agression, the sentry guns wont re-agress you... Even if the target re-engages you. Same with Station guns.

Also just as a side note, if you go 150km off a gate and engage someone, the gate guns don't fire on you either. (Although I always make sure I'm 170km off just to be sure)...Big smile

^ Great for Sniping on lowsec gates if you can stay out of range of guns but still hit out!

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ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#8 - 2014-02-14 23:16:13 UTC
Case 1: the attack is legal

  1. X shoots legal target Y (pirate, suspect, criminal, corp mate) within 150 km of gate guns.
  2. X faces no gate gun consequences.
  3. X gets weapon timer (1 minute). Can't jump or dock.
  4. X and Y get PvP timer (15 minutes). Ship won't vanish from space if they log off.
  5. X and Y can shoot each other legally for 5 minutes. (limited engagement)



Case 2: the attack is not legal

  1. X shoots illegal target Y (non-pirate) within 150 km of gate guns.
  2. X gets shot by gate guns.
  3. X gets a weapon timer (1 minute). Can't jump or dock.
  4. X gains a suspect timer (15 minutes). X can get shot by anyone.
  5. X and Y get PvP timer (15 minutes). Ship won't vanish from space if they log off.
  6. X and Y can shoot each other legally for 5 minutes. (limited engagement)



So, what you witnessed was:

  1. Pirate attacked you illegally under gate guns.
  2. Case 2 happened.
  3. He warps to 350 km, which is farther than the gate guns' 150 km range, so they stop firing.
  4. He warps back in range, and fires again.
  5. Because of point #6 in Case 2, and it not being 5 minutes later, he can shoot now you legally.
  6. Case 1 happened. (note: the 5 minutes got refreshed here)
  7. You went to station, and came back within 5 minutes.
  8. Limited engagement from Case 1 above is still active, so he attacked you legally.
  9. Case 1 happened again.
  10. You posted to the forum.


There were no hidden mechanics. The full documentation of everything I described above can be found here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crimewatch

Remember: those timers on the top left state exactly what people can do to you. Learn to use them. Good luck next time!

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#9 - 2014-02-15 00:35:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Wormhole Wormholes wrote:
Hey, DO NOT CHANGE MY EXAMPLE



I did not shoot at the pirate -


Sorry, my bad.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-02-15 08:57:55 UTC
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
Case 2: the attack is not legal
(snip)
6. X and Y can shoot each other legally for 5 minutes. (limited engagement)

(snip)

There were no hidden mechanics. The full documentation of everything I described above can be found here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crimewatch

Remember: those timers on the top left state exactly what people can do to you. Learn to use them. Good luck next time!
Unfortunately, you are wrong.

If the target doesn't shoot back, no Limited Engagement is created. There was no LE.

After a lot of testing on Sisi, I found that X can attack Y without gate gun aggro as long as X keeps the same suspect flag.

E.g.:

  1. X shoots illegal target Y (non-pirate) within 150 km of gate guns.
  2. X gets shot by gate guns.
  3. X gets a weapon timer (1 minute). Can't jump or dock.
  4. X gains a suspect timer (15 minutes). X can get shot by anyone.
  5. X gains a PvE timer (5 minutes). Ship won't vanish from space if they log off.
  6. X and Y get PvP timer (15 minutes). Ship won't vanish from space if they log off.
  7. X warps away and breaks gate gun aggro.
  8. X comes back and shoots Y again.
  9. X does not get shot by gate guns.
  10. X's weapon, suspect, and PvP timer gets refreshed.
  11. Y's PvP timer gets refreshed.
  12. Y dies / warps away.
  13. X shoots the gate.
  14. X gets shot by gate guns.
  15. X's weapon, suspect and PvE timer gets refreshed.
  16. X warps away and breaks gate gun aggro.
  17. X comes back.
  18. X shoots the gate every 10 minutes for 1h.
  19. During the 1h, X does not get shot by gate guns.
  20. X still has the original suspect timer, which never expired.
  21. Y comes back. (Y does not have any timers anymore.)
  22. X shoots illegal target Y (non-pirate) within 150 km of gate guns.
  23. X does not get shot by gate guns.


From what I've seen, it looks like every suspect flag keeps a list of things you shot. If you shoot someone (or something) new, you get a sec status penalty and gate gun aggro. But after that, you can shoot all your previous targets for as long as you keep the same suspect flag, without any additional sec status penalty, nor gate gun aggro. The list of targets resets only when the suspect flag expires.

This mechanic is not described on the Crimewatch page.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#11 - 2014-02-15 09:28:38 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
Case 2: the attack is not legal
(snip)
6. X and Y can shoot each other legally for 5 minutes. (limited engagement)

(snip)

There were no hidden mechanics. The full documentation of everything I described above can be found here: https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Crimewatch

Remember: those timers on the top left state exactly what people can do to you. Learn to use them. Good luck next time!
Unfortunately, you are wrong.

If the target doesn't shoot back, no Limited Engagement is created. There was no LE.

After a lot of testing on Sisi, I found that X can attack Y without gate gun aggro as long as X keeps the same suspect flag.

E.g.:

  1. X shoots illegal target Y (non-pirate) within 150 km of gate guns.
  2. X gets shot by gate guns.
  3. X gets a weapon timer (1 minute). Can't jump or dock.
  4. X gains a suspect timer (15 minutes). X can get shot by anyone.
  5. X gains a PvE timer (5 minutes). Ship won't vanish from space if they log off.
  6. X and Y get PvP timer (15 minutes). Ship won't vanish from space if they log off.
  7. X warps away and breaks gate gun aggro.
  8. X comes back and shoots Y again.
  9. X does not get shot by gate guns.
  10. X's weapon, suspect, and PvP timer gets refreshed.
  11. Y's PvP timer gets refreshed.
  12. Y dies / warps away.
  13. X shoots the gate.
  14. X gets shot by gate guns.
  15. X's weapon, suspect and PvE timer gets refreshed.
  16. X warps away and breaks gate gun aggro.
  17. X comes back.
  18. X shoots the gate every 10 minutes for 1h.
  19. During the 1h, X does not get shot by gate guns.
  20. X still has the original suspect timer, which never expired.
  21. Y comes back. (Y does not have any timers anymore.)
  22. X shoots illegal target Y (non-pirate) within 150 km of gate guns.
  23. X does not get shot by gate guns.


From what I've seen, it looks like every suspect flag keeps a list of things you shot. If you shoot someone (or something) new, you get a sec status penalty and gate gun aggro. But after that, you can shoot all your previous targets for as long as you keep the same suspect flag, without any additional sec status penalty, nor gate gun aggro. The list of targets resets only when the suspect flag expires.

This mechanic is not described on the Crimewatch page.


Confirming this is exactly correct.

I found a Sleipneir AFK on the Decon (0.4) side of the Decon-Balle gate soon after Retribution launched and shot it (suffering the consequences of gun aggro, etc). Being unable to kill the Sleip before the gate guns would have popped me, I warped to the sun, then to the station for station repairs, then returned to the gate and completed the kill.

Upon popping the pod (5pc highgrade crystals, YUM) I incurred a criminal flag (illegal aggression against pods) and was shot again by the gate guns.

I petitioned this kill myself, as at the time it was by far my biggest solo kill and I wanted to be sure it was legit, and not due to game bugs. A GM reviewed my petition and said that I had not used any exploits or game bugs in killing the Sleip that way.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#12 - 2014-02-15 10:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Yarda Black
If you warp off, the guns will stop shooting.

So you attack, warp off, warp in and kill.

The dude attacking you warped 350 and not multiple AU for a reason.

It worked because you didnt gtfo.

Damnit; i need to edit my response cos the questions deals with the second time he attacked. Serves me right for being lazy and not properly reading your post:

Timers were indeed still active. Lets say you gank a dude in h-sec, get concorded and dock up. You will still have that 15 min timer after concord blew up your ship. As a matter of fact; if you undock before the timer expires...