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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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DSpite Culhach
#541 - 2014-02-15 02:50:31 UTC
I'm asking an actual question, not taking sides, just FYI.

If 10 players in noob ships sit outside a trade hub and bump everything that comes out to interfere with them aligning, I take it that would not be actionable? As long as you are not targeting a specific person, but randomly, even if you could (people would just dock up really) bump someone off station and hold him for an hour, it would be well within the current rules, would it not?

Isn't that what happens at Jita? Potential victims are bumped immediately in order to give scanning ships time to take a peek, so if they are carrying anything juicy, they can be shot at?

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#542 - 2014-02-15 03:51:04 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I'm asking an actual question, not taking sides, just FYI.

If 10 players in noob ships sit outside a trade hub and bump everything that comes out to interfere with them aligning, I take it that would not be actionable? As long as you are not targeting a specific person, but randomly, even if you could (people would just dock up really) bump someone off station and hold him for an hour, it would be well within the current rules, would it not?

Isn't that what happens at Jita? Potential victims are bumped immediately in order to give scanning ships time to take a peek, so if they are carrying anything juicy, they can be shot at?



It's just one method used yes, and would be well within acceptable parameters.


Most scanners in Jita, to my knowledge as I don't really play around Jita(-10 :P), are frigates with sebo's, cargo scanners, and passive targeting systems who just can you as you align to warp out. I COULD be wrong about this.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
DSpite Culhach
#543 - 2014-02-15 04:20:30 UTC
Starting with a base assumption that bumping freighters to stop aligning and killing them is all good - and CCP currently say it is - when this happens when exiting a station,is it actually impossible for a freighter to get away if it has to turn more then a certain amount?

What are optimal conditions, is it having an instawarp bookmark + a web? Is there any other ways other then those to bring down a jump when done after leaving a station?

Personally, when asked by a mate how to deal with taking a freighter into a possibly dangreous station, I told him I would park somewhere else in system and take smaller (cheap) chunks in to station using a high tank ship.

If someone gave me a T2 BPO and I really HAD to move it, unless I had a combo of scouts, timezone tricks, DT timing tricks and a T3 superbricked ship landing on grid with overheated everything assisted by a boosting ship, I'd leave the damn thing in the original station until the entire US gets an internet crash and there's only 1000 people online at once Shocked

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#544 - 2014-02-15 04:26:40 UTC
Bumping is fine, but I think the degree of momentum transferred in collisions is disproportionate.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
DSpite Culhach
#545 - 2014-02-15 04:47:48 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bumping is fine, but I think the degree of momentum transferred in collisions is disproportionate.


I do agree, but you would never get anyone from the extreme camps to agree on a decent middle ground.

One could argue that because of shields and other energy effects, two ships bumping each other would have such effects dampened or negated, but freighters just have straight hulls, and ramming ships usually have nothing running on them other then a MWD - which could be switched off just prior to impact ... or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXq3dytL6ZA

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#546 - 2014-02-15 04:49:53 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bumping is fine, but I think the degree of momentum transferred in collisions is disproportionate.


I do agree, but you would never get anyone from the extreme camps to agree on a decent middle ground.

There were several discussions on this (not sure where they ended up) along the lines of incurring collision damage, ramming-specific modules, etc.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#547 - 2014-02-15 05:39:46 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bumping is fine, but I think the degree of momentum transferred in collisions is disproportionate.




This is actually about the truth of the entire issue.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#548 - 2014-02-15 06:43:01 UTC
They just need to add a physics / real mass to the game. This would change a lot of things > bumbling of smaller ships to bigger ships would not work, thanks to mass. Collision of weapon fire against things in space.
Real physics in EVE would be final answer to this > but with real physics/mass in game, CCP would need to look at ways to change game play to balance it.
i.e. Smarter missiles/rockets which could move around items in space.
i.e. nearly everything in space would need to be distractible by weapon fire. (we can keep NPC stations immune to player fire) plus > the fact that collision damage shouldn't trigger timers on containers and other things in space.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#549 - 2014-02-15 13:33:06 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
They just need to add a physics / real mass to the game. This would change a lot of things > bumbling of smaller ships to bigger ships would not work, thanks to mass. Collision of weapon fire against things in space.
Real physics in EVE would be final answer to this > but with real physics/mass in game, CCP would need to look at ways to change game play to balance it.
i.e. Smarter missiles/rockets which could move around items in space.
i.e. nearly everything in space would need to be distractible by weapon fire. (we can keep NPC stations immune to player fire) plus > the fact that collision damage shouldn't trigger timers on containers and other things in space.



Unfortunately that's not really a viable solution either, Collision damage. As stated Earlier, I'd love for those little frigates that smash into my vindiciator thinking to bump me to go splat, but there are to many places that system could be taken advantage of as well, on a purely day be day accidental bumping basis alone. Think about the only thing CCP could do at the moment is re-jig velocity transfer and reduce its extreme ends a bit.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#550 - 2014-02-15 16:09:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zepheros Naeonis
Seranova Farreach wrote:
mass wise frigates and smaller ships should just "fly on the windowscreen" on capital size ships and since freighters are capital size they should be bump immune to anything but other caps and perhaps battleships which would hold the nessesary mass x speed to make some form of differance


I've always wondered why this was never taken into account. A frig with a MWD slamming into a shp weighing X amount more (such as a freighter) than itself shouldn't do anything. Hell, if anything the frig should go boom.

DSpite Culhach wrote:
If someone gave me a T2 BPO and I really HAD to move it, unless I had a combo of scouts, timezone tricks, DT timing tricks and a T3 superbricked ship landing on grid with overheated everything assisted by a boosting ship, I'd leave the damn thing in the original station until the entire US gets an internet crash and there's only 1000 people online at once Shocked


You were probably just using this as an example, but... Blockade Runner ftw. (Just don't move it with the character who was originally given the BPO.)
firepup82
The Inf3cted
Pathog3n
#551 - 2014-02-17 14:48:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Seranova Farreach wrote:
mass wise frigates and smaller ships should just "fly on the windowscreen" on capital size ships and since freighters are capital size they should be bump immune to anything but other caps and perhaps battleships which would hold the nessesary mass x speed to make some form of differance



frigates are stil heavier than a 747 jet. Throw a 747 jet in an aricraft carrier and they will not squat at the windshield.





your logic here is just flat dumb aprox 750,000lbs take off weightfor a 747 weight of an aircraft carrier 440 924 524

since no were does it show the weight you go by mass mass of an ibis 1.1million mass of a freighter 940 million this is not including whats in the cargo
firepup82
The Inf3cted
Pathog3n
#552 - 2014-02-17 14:51:51 UTC
Cassie Helio wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Its exactly how works in real life. Police cannot prevent you from being hit by a guy with a baseball bat in the street. But the fact
that the guy will be arrested if he does so is what makes unlikely that he will do it.

Why works better in real life? Because the punishment is MUCH more severe and is not forgotten 15 minutes later.


It's funny you said this because I was thinking about it earlier. Actually in real life if you were shoving someone around but not actually causing them harm, you would be suspicious. Police would not be able to stop anyone from hitting you with a baseball bat (the gank squad) but if someone was shoving you around for 30 minutes first (the bumper) police would pay attention to that.


lol you on what planet do you live on and PLEASEEEEE come push me in real life the first shove i will fall out like soccer players do when they get touched and be on my way to the hospital sue you for pain and suffering and live out my days on a beach somewhere.

and since you obviously don't live in the real world a shove is a threatening act the SECOND you put your hands on someone its assault even if you don't cause harm. so please ill give you my address come push me in a public place i actually want you to
firepup82
The Inf3cted
Pathog3n
#553 - 2014-02-17 14:57:11 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Mazzara wrote:
Gankers are so funny, they use any means necessary to justify them using what is pretty clearly an exploit, but the second someone makes a post about how to fix it suddenly the poster is breaking the game.

if a ganker wants to keep someone from flying away they should have to use the modules that everyone else has to and risk getting concorded like everyone else.
I find it pretty funny that people still claim it's an exploit, when CCP have already stated it is not. Therefore the OP is looking to break the game.

If you want to stop people bumping you, then use the tools already provided like everyone else.


like everyone pro gank you ignore the fact that the second someone bumps you the web trick doesnt work.
point 2
if you had a counter gank squad it still will not work the freighter will still die unless well you have the ability to lock the gank squad faster than they can lock the capital sized freighter with max sebos in the mids .. which will not happen. then you have to have a ship that is capable of insta popping the gankers 100% of the time.. THENNN everyone in the counter gank squad has to instantly target a different person before they get a volley off.

all the ideas suggested are idiotic and will not effectively work in the eve world
firepup82
The Inf3cted
Pathog3n
#554 - 2014-02-17 15:00:39 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Bumping is fine, but I think the degree of momentum transferred in collisions is disproportionate.


you completely counter yourself here
1. bumping is fine.
2. momentum transferred is disproportionate if it was proportionate you could not bump a freighter in anything less that a heavy plated battleship traveling at a high speed
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#555 - 2014-02-17 15:41:38 UTC
Bumping in RL.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmDybTIxrJc

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#556 - 2014-02-17 17:32:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
firepup82 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Mazzara wrote:
Gankers are so funny, they use any means necessary to justify them using what is pretty clearly an exploit, but the second someone makes a post about how to fix it suddenly the poster is breaking the game.

if a ganker wants to keep someone from flying away they should have to use the modules that everyone else has to and risk getting concorded like everyone else.
I find it pretty funny that people still claim it's an exploit, when CCP have already stated it is not. Therefore the OP is looking to break the game.

If you want to stop people bumping you, then use the tools already provided like everyone else.


like everyone pro gank you ignore the fact that the second someone bumps you the web trick doesnt work.
point 2
if you had a counter gank squad it still will not work the freighter will still die unless well you have the ability to lock the gank squad faster than they can lock the capital sized freighter with max sebos in the mids .. which will not happen. then you have to have a ship that is capable of insta popping the gankers 100% of the time.. THENNN everyone in the counter gank squad has to instantly target a different person before they get a volley off.

all the ideas suggested are idiotic and will not effectively work in the eve world
I'm pro sandbox and pro using the tools provided.

If you do not wish to use the options available, then don't. Your failure to use them matters not and does not in any way mean they are not usable, or unsuccessful.

But like every other person incapable of using the tools provided, I find it ironic you complain about a game that does not hide the fact you are not safe anywhere. Unlike those of us the accept the game and play it as it was intended. This includes ganking and a normal game mechanic called bumping.

You seem to also ignore the ruling. Your bias also ignores the fact I'm the first to tell the pro gank side the same, when I see them complaining about things. These include the MWD cloak trick and the changes that were made to rat AI as well as others.

The only idiotic thing I've seen, is the unwillingness of some to learn the game, it's nuances and play within it's rules. I'll leave a quote that fits the thread at this point.
CCP Soundwave wrote:
The sandbox isn't for everyone vOv
Post 44.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#557 - 2014-02-17 20:28:51 UTC
All the sandbox arguments are boring and you should know better. If one single ship, can keep another single ship stuck indefinitely that is bad game design. Telling him to bring friends, or have an alt character ready to "blap" him in highsec, is not a solution.

I disagree
SKINE DMZ
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#558 - 2014-02-17 20:31:46 UTC
firepup82 wrote:

come push me in real life the first shove i will fall out like soccer players do when they get touched and be on my way to the hospital sue you for pain and suffering and live out my days on a beach somewhere.


Also srs pussy right here, I'd love to see that **** happen, you going to roll on the floor and cry out of pain when someone pushed you, and then try to sue him? Haha, man you are sad, lazy and pathetic all at once.

I disagree
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#559 - 2014-02-17 21:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
firepup82 wrote:

like everyone pro gank you ignore the fact that the second someone bumps you the web trick doesnt work.
point 2
if you had a counter gank squad it still will not work the freighter will still die unless well you have the ability to lock the gank squad faster than they can lock the capital sized freighter with max sebos in the mids .. which will not happen. then you have to have a ship that is capable of insta popping the gankers 100% of the time.. THENNN everyone in the counter gank squad has to instantly target a different person before they get a volley off.

all the ideas suggested are idiotic and will not effectively work in the eve world


there are things u can do to avoid being bumped in the first place. the critical moment s before being bumped. its like saying there should be some way for a shuttle to escape despite being webbed and scrammed by a daredevil. the critical moment was before being tackled.

no, the gank is not instant like u think. it happens over 20 seconds. jams and reps have time to lock and work. i've succesfully prevented ganks against barges using ECM drones, i did so by jamming only one ship, and i didnt insta lock him or have him pre-locked. ganks take time and can be foiled by removing only a few of the gank ships from the equation. remember, u only have to survive by 1hp.

SKINE DMZ wrote:
All the sandbox arguments are boring and you should know better. If one single ship, can keep another single ship stuck indefinitely that is bad game design. Telling him to bring friends, or have an alt character ready to "blap" him in highsec, is not a solution.


the sand box arguments are boring? dnt play in a game thats a sandbox then. blapping a bumper is a solution, its just one ur not willing to use. and thats fair enough, no work, no reward.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Jill Chastot
WE FORM BL0B Inc.
Goonswarm Federation
#560 - 2014-02-17 21:31:14 UTC
Mag's wrote:


...Fat load of quotes and stuff...

You may not like certain options, but hey, welcome to Eve.


I think the question here is less that are there things to do, but are they feasible to actually acomplish in a realistic situation.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298596&find=unread OATHS wants you. Come to the WH "Safety in eve is the greatest fallacy you will ever encounter. Once you accept this you will truely enjoy this game."