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Crime & Punishment

 
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ressubed to get awoxed for all i've got

Author
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#81 - 2014-02-14 23:15:39 UTC
Sniper Wolf18 wrote:
You keep discounting all these benefits of being in a corp by saying that the people in NPC corps probably wouldn't benefit from these because they don't do any of that stuff. What makes you think that removing awoxing will suddenly cause these players to change their ways and leave solo/NPC corps? Wouldn't adding other benefits, or adding larger penalties to solo players have a much better and more profound effect? Removing the ability to awox would only remove more content and non-consensual PvP from EVE, it would not make all these career carebears change their ways and join a corp because they're 0.00001% less likely to get shot to pieces upon joining.
It doesn't really matter how likely or unlikely you think it is that someone will get awoxed. The fact remains that its a concern a lot of people take into account. You yourself have stated "do the research". if the risk was so low, there would be no reason to research it. It's still there as a barrier to entry, as a reason NOT to join. No matter how many reasons to join they add, a reason not to join is still going to be a barrier. And IMO, it's a pointless barrier. It doesn't have a value add element.

And as stated, I don't really care if they change anything, which is why I'm not posting in F&I. There's already a simple way to avoid the awox issue, and that's sticking to NPC or solo corps. So that's what I'll continue to advise people that don't want to get awoxed to do. Nothing you say will change that view.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#82 - 2014-02-14 23:22:41 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Totally agree, which is why rather than posting up a thread in F&I to have people troll to 200 pages long, I'm simply telling people how to use the current rules to avoid being awoxed. I'm neither crying, nor demanding anything changes, simply pointing out the logic behind the decision. But when are people going to stop having rage fits that so many NPC corp players exist, demanding they be given huge negative side effects or be forced out of NPC corps?


I know you arent crying, I was just making a broad statement. I do, however, think there should be a higher tax rate in NPC corps. Why? I think a higher tax rate to NPC corps is justified by the extra protection it offers its members. Its easy mode, if there can be such a thing in this game. Not astronomical, but enough to make a dent in higher level mission income. It wouldn't hurt the new players, and it might give a bit more of incentive to leave the nest, and have a great time with a great game.
I don't disagree with that either, though I think that would have to go hand in hand with making non-NPC corps barrier free. Honestly, if I wanted to get people engaged and drawn into player corps, I'd remove the corp aggression or make it a switch, double NPC tax, add a refine tax to NPC corps and a small sales tax, to ensure all main revenue streams are mildly disadvantaged from an NPC corp. With that in place, people would be more likely to make the move to a player corp and it would apply the same safety restrictions as would be applied to them in an NPC corp.

In absence of that though the current system offers a viable alternative.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#83 - 2014-02-15 00:01:05 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sniper Wolf18 wrote:
You keep discounting all these benefits of being in a corp by saying that the people in NPC corps probably wouldn't benefit from these because they don't do any of that stuff. What makes you think that removing awoxing will suddenly cause these players to change their ways and leave solo/NPC corps? Wouldn't adding other benefits, or adding larger penalties to solo players have a much better and more profound effect? Removing the ability to awox would only remove more content and non-consensual PvP from EVE, it would not make all these career carebears change their ways and join a corp because they're 0.00001% less likely to get shot to pieces upon joining.
It doesn't really matter how likely or unlikely you think it is that someone will get awoxed. The fact remains that its a concern a lot of people take into account. You yourself have stated "do the research". if the risk was so low, there would be no reason to research it. It's still there as a barrier to entry, as a reason NOT to join. No matter how many reasons to join they add, a reason not to join is still going to be a barrier. And IMO, it's a pointless barrier. It doesn't have a value add element.

And as stated, I don't really care if they change anything, which is why I'm not posting in F&I. There's already a simple way to avoid the awox issue, and that's sticking to NPC or solo corps. So that's what I'll continue to advise people that don't want to get awoxed to do. Nothing you say will change that view.


The ability to AWOX is a value added benefit. Even if you see it a a drawback, someone else sees it as a benefit. In other words, it is a double edged sword.

You can have a corp hangar to share assets... the drawback is someone can steal the assets.
You can have a tower for S&I... the drawback is someone can attack it.
You can wardec other corps... the drawback is they can wardeck you.
You can attack corpmates... the drawback is they can attack you.
Corp Standings may provide access to agents otherwise unavailable.. the drawback is you may pay more fees if they are bad.


And yes, there is a risk of being AWOXed. There's a risk of shooting yourself if you operate a firearm. However, proper handling and that risk is very low. Properly vetting recruits makes the risks of getting AWOXed very low.

Most things have a give and take: More damage, less ability to apply that damage. More tank, less speed.

We understand that you don't find the risks of getting AWOXed worthy of the benefits of corp membership.

The AWOX mechanic is not going away, so I'll simply reiterate: what type of benefit would make the risk of getting awoxed acceptable?

You may honestly feel none, and that is your prerogative, but that doesn't mean the mechanic should be removed.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
#84 - 2014-02-15 00:29:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And yes, there is a risk of being AWOXed. There's a risk of shooting yourself if you operate a firearm. However, proper handling and that risk is very low. Properly vetting recruits makes the risks of getting AWOXed very low.
Indeed, which is why a lot of people simply don't own a gun. It's better to just not take the risk. And how many times do you have to say "properly vetting recruits". How much say does a line member have over recruitment. Absolutely zip.
Then at the same time, what is properly vetted? I've pushed many a pilot into corps that I am working against. It's incredibly easy to produce a completely clean pilot with no way of telling they are up to no good.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The AWOX mechanic is not going away, so I'll simply reiterate: what type of benefit would make the risk of getting awoxed acceptable?

You may honestly feel none, and that is your prerogative, but that doesn't mean the mechanic should be removed.
I am not asking for it to be removed. I'm simply telling people they should just not join corps as it's not worth it, a side affect of which points out how bad the current mechanics are at driving cooperation. You are desperately trying to convince me that that's the wrong action to take for some weird reason. I'll restate my position as I've done MANY times now.

If you are not going to get a profound benefit for joining a given corp, simply remain in an NPC corp or start a solo corp to remove all risk of awox. It's simple and is asking for no changes. Nothing you say will change this. Ever.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Sniper Wolf18
Aggressive Diplomacy
#85 - 2014-02-15 01:25:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Sniper Wolf18 wrote:
You keep discounting all these benefits of being in a corp by saying that the people in NPC corps probably wouldn't benefit from these because they don't do any of that stuff. What makes you think that removing awoxing will suddenly cause these players to change their ways and leave solo/NPC corps? Wouldn't adding other benefits, or adding larger penalties to solo players have a much better and more profound effect? Removing the ability to awox would only remove more content and non-consensual PvP from EVE, it would not make all these career carebears change their ways and join a corp because they're 0.00001% less likely to get shot to pieces upon joining.
It doesn't really matter how likely or unlikely you think it is that someone will get awoxed. The fact remains that its a concern a lot of people take into account. You yourself have stated "do the research". if the risk was so low, there would be no reason to research it.


The risk of catching HIV from unprotected vaginal sex is 0.01% - 0.38%, but if you meet a girl (or a guy if that's your idea of a good time) in a club/bar and are going to bang them, you're gonna wear protection, right? The same thing is true for joining a corp in EVE, it makes you vulnerable, even if the chance of something bad happening is astronomically small, it is still a good idea to protect yourself in every possible way, it only takes a short time and causes minimal discomfort, there is absolutely no reason not to do it.
Jasmine Panzer
Ciaba Ventures
#86 - 2014-02-15 17:49:57 UTC
Corps in EVE, especially in highsec, are currently and 'all-or-nothing' thing.

They're the only natural way to form a group and get access to certian benefits, but they also pose some risks - namely, awoxing and aggressive wardecs.

People wanting to avoid those 'risks' stay in NPC corps, or hop in and out of said NPC corps.

This is bad because:
- on one side, newbies that can't yet deal with awoxing and wardecs can't form a corp. I'm not saying they shouldn't HTFU eventually, but again this 'all-or-nothing' situation can be a steep learning curve indeed even for the ones willing and able to learn
- on the opposite side, experienced players 'abuse' npc corps to avoid wardecs, which are a great mechanic that they should instead have the tools to deal with. I'm talking gankers and carebears alike. problem is, they face no consequences for this cowardly behaviour!

So here's a proposal I posted in Assembly Hall: Proposal: Introduce Limited Companies (Ltd.)

TL;DR is: set NPC tax rate to 50% including all market transactions, and introduce 'Limited Companies' as a kind of 'low grade' corp immune to wardecs and awoxing but with similar tax rate and 'limited' rights (e.g. no POS ownership).

So either 1) stay in NPC corp and make low ISK 2) get in a Limited Company, play with friends, still make low ISK 3) when you''ve HTFU, join a 'normal' Corp, make ISK, do what you like, get wardec'd and awoxed, play EVE with the big guys!