These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

First post First post First post
Author
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#461 - 2014-02-13 00:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
1.) In the market tutorial, it should CLEARLY state that buy orders are not guaranteed.


I don't think this would hurt anything, but why? No order is ever guaranteed. You could get scammed by somebody using the Margin Trading trick, or an order could simply be filled faster than you can get to it. In fact, most players won't be able to functionally tell the difference between these two things. It's not as though, in all other circumstances, you are guaranteed to sell to a buy order just because you saw it first, or whatever. A buy order can always fall out from under you, and not just because you got scammed either. I guess it could work as a sort of broad, training-wheels introduction to how markets work, but I'm not sure it's necessary at the end of the day.

Quote:
2.) When a buy order fails because of insufficient funds, clearly state to the seller that the buy order didn't complete because of insufficient funds.


This is useful feedback because it just makes sense from a player UI perspective. When an unanticipated event happens, it's always good to let a player know its cause.

Quote:
3.) Add a "Verify Order" action to all buy orders, so players can check the validity of an order before attempting to fulfill it (for a fee of course!).


This, as always, completely ignores how Margin Trading actually works. When people are using it legitimately--and they almost always are--the expectation is typically that you won't be filling the entire buy order all at once. Rather, you expect to fill it slowly, so with cash trickling in from other sources, you'll be able to cover the buy order in question over time. In other words, the presence of Margin Trading, or the fact that the entire order can't be covered in one shot, isn't a red flag. A "verify order" function would actually just lead to greater confusion and ignorance, because it would be enough to convince many players, who don't understand how Margin Trading even works, that totally legitimate orders are, in fact, big scams.

The best way to avoid getting scammed like this is simply to study the market for an item and understand its ballpark value. Also, orders set up to fail routinely have a minimum buy quantity above 1, something usually reserved for high volume/low ISK items like minerals and ammo (which players don't want to buy only 1 unit of in some station out in the sticks). If you see some random item with a high price tag, and a buyer who wants to pick them up, but only exactly 16 units of it, it's a pretty sure sign that you're being set up. A far surer way to know, in any case, than a "Verify Order" button, which is going to catch totally legit orders anyway.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#462 - 2014-02-13 01:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
1.) In the market tutorial, it should CLEARLY state that buy orders are not guaranteed.

I don't think this would hurt anything, but why? No order is ever guaranteed. You could get scammed by somebody using the Margin Trading trick, or an order could simply be filled faster than you can get to it. In fact, most players won't be able to functionally tell the difference between these two things. It's not as though, in all other circumstances, you are guaranteed to sell to a buy order just because you saw it first, or whatever. A buy order can always fall out from under you, and not just because you got scammed either. I guess it could work as a sort of broad, training-wheels introduction to how markets work, but I'm not sure it's necessary at the end of the day.


Because most games don't have a mechanic similar to Margin Trade. The result is new players often don't comprehend that trades may fail do to insufficient funds. A little warning doesn't hurt anyone, and helps to eliminate ignorance (which is a good thing).


Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
2.) When a buy order fails because of insufficient funds, clearly state to the seller that the buy order didn't complete because of insufficient funds.

This is useful feedback because it just makes sense from a player UI perspective. When an unanticipated event happens, it's always good to let a player know its cause.

3.) Add a "Verify Order" action to all buy orders, so players can check the validity of an order before attempting to fulfill it (for a fee of course!).

This, as always, completely ignores how Margin Trading actually works. When people are using it legitimately--and they almost always are--the expectation is typically that you won't be filling the entire buy order all at once. Rather, you expect to fill it slowly, so with cash trickling in from other sources, you'll be able to cover the buy order in question over time. In other words, the presence of Margin Trading, or the fact that the entire order can't be covered in one shot, isn't a red flag. A "verify order" function would actually just lead to greater confusion and ignorance, because it would be enough to convince many players, who don't understand how Margin Trading even works, that totally legitimate orders are, in fact, big scams.

The best way to avoid getting scammed like this is simply to study the market for an item and understand its ballpark value. Also, orders set up to fail routinely have a minimum buy quantity above 1, something usually reserved for high volume/low ISK items like minerals and ammo (which players don't want to buy only 1 unit of in some station out in the sticks). If you see some random item with a high price tag, and a buyer who wants to pick them up, but only exactly 16 units of it, it's a pretty sure sign that you're being set up. A far surer way to know, in any case, than a "Verify Order" button, which is going to catch totally legit orders anyway.


I made a more detailed post about this earlier in the thread, and apologize leaving out a key detail in my post: To avoid hurting legitimate margin traders, the "Verify Order" function does NOT verify that you can complete the ENTIRE order! Instead, it verifies you have sufficient funds to complete your minimum purchase. Then it will have absolutely no effect on legit buyers, and the associated fee (1m isk or so) ensures people won't be spamming it on all orders (just fishy ones).

Final note: I regularly trade, and have never fallen for the margin trade scam. I think it is a brilliant use of game mechanics, and honestly think it is fine as is. However, I also think it is a tax on those ignorant of how the margin trade mechanics work, and since most players aren't exposed to the appropriate information until after they have been scammed, I think this desperately needs addressing. The reason for the "Verify Order" suggestion was simply to find a middle ground for all players, which is much more reasonable than CCP's original propositions.

*edit* I also love this idea because it still allows players to fall for margin trade scams! And when they come crying to the forums everyone will ask why they didn't bother to verify the order first.
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#463 - 2014-02-13 02:02:27 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Because most games don't have a mechanic similar to Margin Trade. The result is new players often don't comprehend that trades may fail do to insufficient funds. A little warning doesn't hurt anyone, and helps to eliminate ignorance (which is a good thing).


Wouldn't this only perpetuate the notion that it's a skill which swindles you, and not a larger psychological set-up that's really only facilitated by the skill on a superficial level (much in the same way that having Corporation Management skills to lead a large alliance might facilitate a far broader, more complex political fraud that ends in you looting its hangars)?

I reiterate: it's not the skill that does it to you. And to be honest, given the frequency with which this nonsense about Margin Trading comes up on the forums, I don't think the game needs to be perpetuating ignorance any further by being like "Watch out! People might use that Margin Trading skill to scam you!" Any buy order can elude your grasp, for any number of reasons which may or may not have to do with Margin Trading. That's just a basic reality of a market system. Somebody else gets there before you. A buyer thinks twice and cancels their order. The fact that one cannot realistically distinguish between either of these things and an order being rigged with Margin Trading is enough to make me think that nothing really needs to be done at all.

Quote:
I made a more detailed post about this earlier in the thread, and apologize leaving out a key detail in my post: To avoid hurting legitimate margin traders, the "Verify Order" function does NOT verify that you can complete the ENTIRE order! Instead, it verifies you have sufficient funds to complete your minimum purchase. Then it will have absolutely no effect on legit buyers, and the associated fee (1m isk or so) ensures people won't be spamming it on all orders (just fishy ones).

Final note: I regularly trade, and have never fallen for the margin trade scam. I think it is a brilliant use of game mechanics, and honestly think it is fine as is. However, I also think it is a tax on those ignorant of how the margin trade mechanics work, and since most players aren't exposed to the appropriate information until after they have been scammed, I think this desperately needs addressing. The reason for the "Verify Order" suggestion was simply to find a middle ground for all players, which is much more reasonable than CCP's original propositions.

*edit* I also love this idea because it still allows players to fall for margin trade scams! And when they come crying to the forums everyone will ask why they didn't bother to verify the order first.


I guess the ultimate problem I see in all of this is that we'd be asking CCP to add universal functionality to the market interface which is only really useful in a relatively small number of edge cases. The markets aren't rife, by any means, with people running this scam. I don't see why CCP should devote development hours to adding a button or a right-click menu item that only benefits ignorant players who refuse to study the market for an item before they go buying it, and who refuse to read the signs of a scam in the offing, of which there are several. I can't think of any reason a person would use a "Verify Order" function except in aid of laziness and a lack of interest in actually learning about the part of the economy they're trying to profit from.
Zhalon
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
#464 - 2014-02-13 03:07:24 UTC
Apologizes if this is a repeat, I have in no way read every page in this thread. However, here are my ideas:

1) Tweak UI to highlight buy orders with minimum buy quantities above 1.

2) Margin trading is a bad skill. It should be removed from the game or retooled to only affect items up to a reasonable amount.

If you retool I'd say margin trading only comes into account for individual items less than....say 1M. Anything above that requires you to pony up the full amount.

If you remove the skill you still have the problem of stifling those newbie traders. You need a way for other players to give them a loan. Of course the problem is collateral. The only thing the newbie has is game time. Would be interesting to make loans using days of game time as collateral. Let people negotiate the terms freely. 100M loan to be paid back within 30 days + 2M. If not paid back in full by so and so date then 5 days of game time will be deducted and transferred. The UI wouldn't allow someone with 14 days of game time left to accept the loan. Only someone with 35 days or more could accept the terms of the loan. And of course no trial accounts could participate.

EVE has such a great economy. I'd love to make loans to people and if those people defaulted on the loan I want CONCORD to be my own repo-man and confiscate their game time...for a modest fee.
JetStream Drenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#465 - 2014-02-13 03:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: JetStream Drenard
CCP Rise wrote:
This isn't about scamming or whether or not it's okay for people to trick other people, which is obviously extremely EVE and we have no problem with. The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled.

I am a bit confused... you cant really scam someone without lying about it, so this statement seems a bit contradictory to me. As you pointed out, the fix of automatically cancelling these orders would essentially also affect legitimate use of margin trading and therefore make the skill almost useless, especially at those times when buys fills are up and sell fills are down.

CCP Rise wrote:
A second possibility, which emerged from the discussion with the CSM, was built around marking orders in the market interface based on whether or not they were placed using margin trading. This would mean that when you place a buy order you would have to decide whether that would be a 'guaranteed' order or not, and then it would be marked (colored or check boxed or something) in the market interface so that people would know whether there was risk involved in trying to fill the order. This has several problems also, including: making legitimate market activity seem shady, making the interface more confusing, adding clicks for people placing orders and also costing new players money by steering them away from cheaper orders because of fear of scams.

Once again this would just about make margin trading useless for your already stated reasons. especially the legitimate seeming shady part.

The only way I see 'coloring' of orders might work is just to color those orders (buy price * min volume) that can not be currently filled by the character who created them, such as red. This was mentioned earlier as well. This would have two effects that I can foresee. 1 scams would be more visible to those who pay attention and 2 Market Fu against legitimate traders who can not fill their orders for whatever reason, by attempting the sale to forcibly cancel them. But once again this kinda ruins the skill margin trading because Market Fu is almost as assured as automatic cancellation. When training the skill it is the hope that whichever high priced item you cant currently fill doesnt sell before you have a chance to ensure you are not the highest bid.

edit- margin trading is just about the most important skill for a tycoon to have anything that diminishes its effectiveness also ruins the tycoon skill as well.
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#466 - 2014-02-13 04:37:14 UTC
Zhalon wrote:
1) Tweak UI to highlight buy orders with minimum buy quantities above 1.


So the market window should be cluttered with highlighted orders because a barely noticeable part of the population is scared of being scammed? How about looking at the minimum buy quantity before you go snapping up stuff to sell to it?

Quote:
2) Margin trading is a bad skill. It should be removed from the game or retooled to only affect items up to a reasonable amount.

If you retool I'd say margin trading only comes into account for individual items less than....say 1M. Anything above that requires you to pony up the full amount.


No, it's not a bad skill. It's a misunderstood skill.

Quote:
If you remove the skill you still have the problem of stifling those newbie traders.


Margin Trading isn't really geared toward newbie traders, though. I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. The skill is designed so you can splash out a big order that you don't anticipate being filled all in one shot, and still have the liquid cash available to handle other investments at the same time. This is a trading technique that will most benefit experienced traders with deeper pockets. Newbies with tiny bankrolls are much better off going for faster trades that will give them quicker, more immediate profits. That way they can quickly reinvest and get their bankroll snowballing.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#467 - 2014-02-14 02:57:14 UTC
Bump

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Odoman Empeer
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#468 - 2014-02-14 14:39:11 UTC
Okay, I've read through until the arguments became repetitive, and here's what i've got.

People that support the current mechanics say that, like in real life, buy orders do not always go through.

People that don't like this method point to the fact that this is the only lie in eve that is supported by the interface, where you cannot obviously tell that one individual is lying to another, or have information on the person you are buying from or selling to immediately available for review.

People also state that they pay taxes on the market, and that cost infers honesty among the market.



On the first reason why people want the machanic to stay in place, besides being scammer themselves, if you own a business, and tell a bunch of other businesses that you are going to buy X product from them, THEN move all your money from the account that should AUTOMATICALLY pay them, I think they call this imbelzelment. Not sure, but I think this practice is considered immoral in a legal setting, ie, illegal.

I would like to also reinforce the point that, unlike every other method of scamming in eve, this method is clearly stated to exist in the market GUI. If someone shouts buying PLEX for 1.2 billion each, you click on the contract, and it's only 1.2 million, it is clearly stated and reitterated in written out words that the price that they are going to pay is 1.2 million.

Also, why are we paying taxes if the interface should be good?

So, here are some solutions:


Market Escrow should be clearly visible on the market screen. There should be a collum with buy orders that states % Escrow. This means, anyone planning to sell to that person can see how much money, exactly, has been put down, so that they can accurately fill those buy orders. This also means that if someone puts an order for 10,000 units of something and only 5% escrow or what not, it is very clear that you should not attempt to fill this order.

All you need to do to make this fair is to make market escrow clearly visible to all players on the buy order section. This does not affect the buy order system as it stands.
JetStream Drenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#469 - 2014-02-14 17:38:02 UTC
Odoman Empeer wrote:

So, here are some solutions:


Market Escrow should be clearly visible on the market screen. There should be a collum with buy orders that states % Escrow. This means, anyone planning to sell to that person can see how much money, exactly, has been put down, so that they can accurately fill those buy orders. This also means that if someone puts an order for 10,000 units of something and only 5% escrow or what not, it is very clear that you should not attempt to fill this order.

All you need to do to make this fair is to make market escrow clearly visible to all players on the buy order section. This does not affect the buy order system as it stands.

Any serious trader has the margin trading to 5, 4 at the least. It is an incredibly necessary method of leveraged buying power. Showing this to other players would not accomplish anything really. In and of itself, it does not show, even fractionally, that a buy is a lie.
Odoman Empeer
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2014-02-14 17:57:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Odoman Empeer
JetStream Drenard wrote:
Odoman Empeer wrote:

So, here are some solutions:


Market Escrow should be clearly visible on the market screen. There should be a collum with buy orders that states % Escrow. This means, anyone planning to sell to that person can see how much money, exactly, has been put down, so that they can accurately fill those buy orders. This also means that if someone puts an order for 10,000 units of something and only 5% escrow or what not, it is very clear that you should not attempt to fill this order.

All you need to do to make this fair is to make market escrow clearly visible to all players on the buy order section. This does not affect the buy order system as it stands.

Any serious trader has the margin trading to 5, 4 at the least. It is an incredibly necessary method of leveraged buying power. Showing this to other players would not accomplish anything really. In and of itself, it does not show, even fractionally, that a buy is a lie.


So, there is an order that you think may be suspicious, but you want to try and fill it. You go gather the items, and as soon as you try and sell it, the buy order just disappears. you are baffled, you are not a serious trader, just a small time trader looking to make a quick buck. Now you have no idea why this is, you've never messed with the eve trading market before. You are just bewildered and upset over the loss in isk and the mountain of worthless modules on your hands.

Update happens. Now you see that there is a buy order, but that only 5% or 10% or 25% or whatever has been put down to fill that buy order. You now know that, unlike your previous assumptions, you should only buy a % of that buy order to try and fill it. If you do otherwise, you will know it will not sell. You also know that the suspicious buy order that, previously, you thought was legitimate, because it was listed on the market, is actually not going to give you that money.

If you think this small, insignificant change will have no impact on whether people can run the scam or cannot run the scam, I think you are yourself just trying to preserve the ability to scam. This small piece of information, that a buy order for 10,000 units of something, which requires you to sell a minimum of 10,000 units, but only has 5% of the isk ready to pay for those units, is in, in fact, not a worthwhile trade.

if you leave it as it is, it requires every player in eve to realize that the market, despite the assumptions, and lack of knowledge of what the marginal trading skill does, that every buy order is backed by isk, this will continue to be the biggest scam in eve. By simply adding that there is only a marginal amount of isk, in the form of a note on the right side saying either 'Escrow %' or something, with a tool tip on that column stating that this is the % of isk that the buyer has put down to fill this buy order, you have preventing the thousands of ignorant pilots from making this mistake.

Marginal Trading is not a skill that every pilot will read and wonder what it does. In fact, very few will read and know what it does. They will simply use the market, and note that if they place a buy order, that the isk comes out of their wallet, or if they sell something to a buyer, that the isk goes directly into their pocket without any problems.

The only reason this works is because so many pilots don't realize what this skill does. By adding just a smidge of awareness of it's existence, You've made it so that it is impossible to scam people through their own sheer ignorance.

Seriously, not everyone has an alt sitting in Jita training trading skills. Most of us actually play the game.

And yes, I'm very upset that you can say that this is a bad idea when it does absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game. This changes nothing except to make players more aware that this skill exists. It keeps all the marginal traders happy, and it ruins all the scammers days, for the most part. All by adding 1 more silly column to a spread sheet. And all it does it say how much isk is readily available to fill a buy order in bulk, without giving any information about the buyer.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#471 - 2014-02-14 18:48:59 UTC
Odoman Empeer wrote:

Marginal Trading is not a skill that every pilot will read and wonder what it does. In fact, very few will read and know what it does. They will simply use the market, and note that if they place a buy order, that the isk comes out of their wallet, or if they sell something to a buyer, that the isk goes directly into their pocket without any problems.

The only reason this works is because so many pilots don't realize what this skill does. By adding just a smidge of awareness of it's existence, You've made it so that it is impossible to scam people through their own sheer ignorance.

Seriously, not everyone has an alt sitting in Jita training trading skills. Most of us actually play the game.

And yes, I'm very upset that you can say that this is a bad idea when it does absolutely nothing to the mechanics of the game. This changes nothing except to make players more aware that this skill exists. It keeps all the marginal traders happy, and it ruins all the scammers days, for the most part. All by adding 1 more silly column to a spread sheet. And all it does it say how much isk is readily available to fill a buy order in bulk, without giving any information about the buyer.


Two points:

Pilots will become desensitized to seeing low values in the "escrow available column", as the isk in the escrow account gets used first, and is quickly & easily drained.

I like the fact your idea increases awareness that buy orders may be placed without having the full isk to back it up. Players doing the market tutorial will learn what it means, and other players will learn as they inquire others about the extra information on the interface.

In many ways, your suggestion is better than my "Verify the Order" suggestion (which checks that isk is available to cover the minimum buy purchase, for a fee).

Michael Ignis Archangel
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#472 - 2014-02-16 21:55:05 UTC
Again, there is no way to read everything here, so apologies for repeats here.

How would the group feel about the failed buy order mechanic working as follows:

1) Scammer sets up fake buy order.
2) Mark attempts to deliver goods, order fails.

Currently, the game stops here, scammer wins. This is not necessarily bad, however, nearly every other trap in the game can be wiggled out of (except those PLEX contracts in Jita local... there's no fixing stupid. But I digress).

I propose the following result of a failed sale into a buy order (hereafter, a "fail" for short as in RL market parlance). A "fail" should produce an "escrow deficiency" on the part of the buyer, which would have the following results:

a) the buyer's wallet is emptied and placed in escrow to cover the fail, and the deficiency is held as a "debt" to the station's corporation
b) the deficiency also "locks up" the items the seller was attempting to sell (basically "freezing" the transaction).
c) the seller can release buyer from this fail at will. The order, deficiency, and fail goes away, and items are returned to the seller.
d) a buyer with an open deficiency cannot place new orders on the market in any stations of the same corporation for 3 months.

e)... not sure of this one's technically nightmarish complexity, but it'd also be cool if sales proceeds at same-NPC-corp stations were also seized.

TL;DR this would be somewhat like bankruptcy in RL. You can do it once in a long while, but not everyday. Also of note this does nothing to prevent the "minimum quantity" method of scammer from continuing to function as normal, although it would add risk to them - I'm comfortable with the position that, scam complete, the scammer should have to remember to cancel the buy in order to de-risk in that situation.

I think this would still allow what I believe to be a brilliant scam. I just think this gives the mark a chance to fight back in a new and interesting way. Just imagine the mark and scammer, forced to meet and arrive at a "settlement" (awesome pastebins in 5...4...3...).
voetius
Grundrisse
#473 - 2014-02-16 22:20:38 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
This isn't about scamming or whether or not it's okay for people to trick other people, which is obviously extremely EVE and we have no problem with. The issue here is that the client (via the market interface) is essentially lying to the player by showing an order which can't actually be filled.

I am a bit confused... you cant really scam someone without lying about it, so this statement seems a bit contradictory to me. As you pointed out, the fix of automatically cancelling these orders would essentially also affect legitimate use of margin trading and therefore make the skill almost useless, especially at those times when buys fills are up and sell fills are down.



Maybe the wording could be improved but the point here is that it is possible to create a buy order using the Margin Trade skill, remove the escrow using an alt and therefore create a buy order that it is impossible to fulfil (note: I said fulfil, not complete). In this situation the market interface is presenting a buy order to the user that is impossible to sell goods into.

There is a subtle difference between the meaning of the words fulfil and complete.

Imagine for a second that you are a programmer creating a market trading system in real life and you have to deal with a buy order that is guaranteed to fail. Would you display that buy order on the screen to a user? Of course not.

It's a tricky question and as a trader I personally would prefer not to see the margin trade skill removed. Removing it penalises newer players rather than older players who maybe have larger isk reserves.
Ludacrys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#474 - 2014-02-17 08:33:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ludacrys
The solution is simple, IF (Minimum quantity*item price) > escrow money + wallet money then AUTO CANCEL THE ORDER as it is just displaying false information in the market

this solution allows margin trading to keep being used for legitimate reasons but disallows its use to display false information in the market
A scammer setting a buy order for 1000 (minimum quantity of 1000) of ITEM X will not be able to do it
A trader setting a buy order for 1000 (minimum quantity of 1, 50, 100, whatever) of ITEM X will be able to do it as long as he can afford a bundle of minimum quantity

Of course this has to be checked every certain amount of time for all orders

You dont even have to cancel the orders, just DONT DISPLAY them in the market until the buyer can again afford a bundle of minimum quantity, so they dont have to remake the orders every time they run out of money, simple getting more money will get the orders relisted
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#475 - 2014-02-17 09:02:40 UTC
Odoman Empeer wrote:
Update happens. Now you see that there is a buy order, but that only 5% or 10% or 25% or whatever has been put down to fill that buy order. You now know that, unlike your previous assumptions, you should only buy a % of that buy order to try and fill it. If you do otherwise, you will know it will not sell. You also know that the suspicious buy order that, previously, you thought was legitimate, because it was listed on the market, is actually not going to give you that money.


That's not true. You could only have put down a portion of the buy order in escrow, but still have enough in your wallet to cover it. Showing players the escrow value doesn't tell them anything about whether the person who set up the buy order can honor it at that moment or not. Furthermore, the Margin Trading scam relies on setting up a specific buy quantity, so measuring out X% to try and match the escrow isn't going to work. Also, there would be so many legitimate buy orders with escrow amounts less than 100% that this "fix" would just add more noise to the system and confuse inexperienced traders even further.

Quote:
The only reason this works is because so many pilots don't realize what this skill does. By adding just a smidge of awareness of it's existence, You've made it so that it is impossible to scam people through their own sheer ignorance.


You've pretty much demonstrated in your comments that you don't even know what Margin Trading does. Nothing you have suggested would help anybody.
Odoman Empeer
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#476 - 2014-02-17 22:58:15 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Odoman Empeer wrote:
Update happens. Now you see that there is a buy order, but that only 5% or 10% or 25% or whatever has been put down to fill that buy order. You now know that, unlike your previous assumptions, you should only buy a % of that buy order to try and fill it. If you do otherwise, you will know it will not sell. You also know that the suspicious buy order that, previously, you thought was legitimate, because it was listed on the market, is actually not going to give you that money.


That's not true. You could only have put down a portion of the buy order in escrow, but still have enough in your wallet to cover it. Showing players the escrow value doesn't tell them anything about whether the person who set up the buy order can honor it at that moment or not. Furthermore, the Margin Trading scam relies on setting up a specific buy quantity, so measuring out X% to try and match the escrow isn't going to work. Also, there would be so many legitimate buy orders with escrow amounts less than 100% that this "fix" would just add more noise to the system and confuse inexperienced traders even further.

Quote:
The only reason this works is because so many pilots don't realize what this skill does. By adding just a smidge of awareness of it's existence, You've made it so that it is impossible to scam people through their own sheer ignorance.


You've pretty much demonstrated in your comments that you don't even know what Margin Trading does. Nothing you have suggested would help anybody.



So, A column that says '% Escrow" would not help anyone?

I see a large order, it looks about 30-40 days old and is set to only purchase a minimum amount of a product. I'm a noob, I go to fill that order. Currently, if it was placed with a % down as escrow and is a scam, the money is no longer on that account, and when i get to station to sell the order, the market checks and sees that there is not enough money. The order cancels itself, and I'm sitting on station with a huge amount of an item like a dumbass.

If there had been a little column that said % Escrow, and it was not 100%, I would not have bothered with the order.

Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

But you've pretty much demonstrated in your comments that you don't have any comprehension of this problem. Nothing you add to this conversation can help anybody.
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#477 - 2014-02-17 23:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Odoman Empeer wrote:
So, A column that says '% Escrow" would not help anyone?

I see a large order, it looks about 30-40 days old and is set to only purchase a minimum amount of a product. I'm a noob, I go to fill that order. Currently, if it was placed with a % down as escrow and is a scam, the money is no longer on that account, and when i get to station to sell the order, the market checks and sees that there is not enough money. The order cancels itself, and I'm sitting on station with a huge amount of an item like a dumbass.

If there had been a little column that said % Escrow, and it was not 100%, I would not have bothered with the order.

Do you understand what I'm getting at here?

But you've pretty much demonstrated in your comments that you don't have any comprehension of this problem. Nothing you add to this conversation can help anybody.


The problem is, tons of buy orders which are legitimate are going to show less than 100% escrow. Why? Because most active traders have the Margin Trading skill. Like I said, this is all just going to be noise, and tell you nothing more about the quality of a buy order than if there were no escrow % column at all. I'll underline my next point for emphasis: The most effective way to protect yourself, as usual, is to (a) understand the market for the item you're purchasing, and (b) keep an eye on the minimum buy quantity on the order in question. Knowing that a buy order doesn't have full escrow is a useless piece of information. What you are suggesting is that CCP spend development time adding a completely useless column to the market interface, just so a handful of edge cases cannot be helped by it.

I think the reason why some people don't want to deal with the underlined point I made above is because my suggestion is harder to follow than it is to just come to the forums and whine about it. But there is no "I Win" button in the Margin Trading scam that forces ISK out of your wallet and overpriced goods into your item hangar. I get that it's easy to blame the Margin Trading skill. Nobody wants to feel like they had a hand in their own victimization. But the skill isn't what does this to you. The sooner the complainers learn this, the more quickly they will learn how to protect themselves.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#478 - 2014-02-18 03:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Danikov
The fact that, if I create a buy order of a certain quantity then buy a portion of it to recover the escrow is possible seems like an exploit to me- if the % escrow to wallet ratio is kept constant, that'll avoid that particular trick, but scammers will likely compensate by increasing their margins, so that won't 'fix' the scam and how it's used.

The core problem is always going to be the reverse nature of the scam- a buy order isn't guaranteed, so a prospective margin trader is taking risk acquiring goods based on an uncertain offer. In high volume markets, this is far less of a concern as you're playing against the market average at best, but when it comes to high value objects with low volume, it can be difficult to distinguish between real demand and scams, especially to a new face.

The solution is to give the buy order fulfiller a way to 'lock in' a buy order- that is, buy orders have a time span (say, 24h) in which they can be filled. This allows a genuine fulfiller who either has the order or believes that can obtain it to guarantee that doing so results in a sale, while testing that the buyer is genuine by locking in the entire price at that time.

The best way to do this is to right-click a buy order and 'convert to contract'- this takes the money from the escrow/wallet of the buyer, normal contract fees from the seller, and either the seller delivers or the contract fails and is returned to the buy order for free (after all, the buyer has no control over the conversion of their buy orders into contracts) while the seller forfeits their contracting fees.

In the case of a scam or a unfillable buy order, the contract conversion fails and the buy order is cancelled- nobody is left holding a worthless module.

No need to check wallet balances, uses an existing mechanism that should be easily adapted, allows current market traders to carry on as normal, everyone wins except the scammers (sorry!).
Alexia Marhx
The Witch's Den
#479 - 2014-02-18 05:11:16 UTC
I was a victim of this scam. PERIOD

This said, I took some time to think about how to correct the situation. Before replying, I tried to read other posts, but I gave up (too many of them), so it may have already been suggested. And I do apologize for the legal-like language...

I was told it was a breach of trust and a normal game mechanics. I disagree on that... The market is fuel by player inputs, but NOT player controlled, it is a trusted platform... Pretty much like if CONCORD would start shooting on player having bounties on them... Or if I deliver a "Courrier" contract and don't get the money stated in the contract because of a similar skill. It wouldn't be called a breach of trust then. If I put an item in a jet-can because someone promised to transfer money, that's a breach of trust. If I accept a 1 million ISK trade for a PLEX because the player wrote in the title 1 billion (Sounds familiar?), that's a breach of trust. When I use the market, I do not put trust into the seller, but in the market system. This distinction is VERY important, because it makes a difference whether it should be corrected or not.

I believe that the margin trading skill was added as a tool for honest traders that make mass purchases. If, for some reasons, I want to buy 5 000 Omen, it is highly unlikely that I'll have all the ISK ready in my wallet, and it is ALSO unlikely that anyone has 5 000 Omen ready to sell. So, this order may take A WHILE to fulfill...

So any correction requires focus on the needs of the honest traders.

My suggestion: adding a recollection process and/or the possibility to get into debts... Should an order fail to fulfill an order, New Eden would cover the difference, the player would have a negative balance, and so unable to trade or do anything that requires a payment. In any case, the honest seller is never to be informed of this. Margin trading taking quite a while to reach, we wouldn't assist to a rise of thousands of alts...
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#480 - 2014-02-18 10:05:10 UTC
Alexia Marhx wrote:
My suggestion: adding a recollection process and/or the possibility to get into debts... Should an order fail to fulfill an order, New Eden would cover the difference, the player would have a negative balance, and so unable to trade or do anything that requires a payment. In any case, the honest seller is never to be informed of this. Margin trading taking quite a while to reach, we wouldn't assist to a rise of thousands of alts...


If you can biomass characters, then penalizing the "scammer" is pointless.