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Why was not Singularity a mayhem up to the mirror?
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Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2014-02-14 02:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronny Hugo
There were recently announced that there would be a new mirror on Singularity test server. So Tranquility server was copied again and then Singularity started again from this new starting point. This meant that all the supercarriers and titans present on the singularity server before the mirror is irrelevant.
So why didn't everyone with supercarriers and titans on singularity go nuts up to the mirror? They could go have a blast in their supercarriers and titans with no regard to the outcome. They would not have to make new supercarriers and titans on Singularity if they lost them up towards the mirror.

And also, why don't those who own supercarriers and titans on Tranquility at the time of the mirror, go to Singularity and have a blast in their supercarriers and titans? If they are not going to play on singularity regularly they can have a blast with no regard to the consequences (no need to fear losing them on Singularity if you are not going to bother making new ones on Singularity).

And a final question, why don't more people play on the test server? Its a very fine place for learning in a short time. Go lose a dozen ships on Singularity and you learn more in one day than months of playing on Tranquility.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-02-14 02:20:24 UTC
you assume supercarriers and titans are fun.

they arent, not in a sense that you mean. They are tools for specific tasks, nothing more. And killing lol-fit carriers/dreads that cost 100 isk on a field littered with thousands of abandoned drones gets old real fast.

As to why test server isnt used more - that i cannot say. I use it every now and again to test certain things.
Serene Repose
#3 - 2014-02-14 02:21:24 UTC
Intriguing set of questions you put forth. We'll get the answer team on this as soon as they complete the woodchuck dilemma.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2014-02-14 02:26:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronny Hugo
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
and killing lol-fit carriers/dreads that cost 100 isk on a field littered with thousands of abandoned drones gets old real fast.

So killing other ships is only fun if it cost some poor player lots of effort? Are you evil or do you just sound like it by accident? :P
I think its marvelous fun to play on the test server, but then again I usually play for the losing side (that's what happens if you don't take it so seriously that you bother to gather up a serious fleet), which is very exciting even if the ships are free. A certain group of people on the test server have a habit of only engaging anyone if they have such a large force that they never have any real chance of losing ships (Can't imagine they have much fun).

Serene, in other words, "off topic noise". Swell.
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#5 - 2014-02-14 02:47:10 UTC
I sometimes go on to use new stuff CCP adds, but then it just ends up with me getting ganked by 3 bhalls, 5 vindicators and 2 RR carriers, JIC I manage to actually do anything before I die.

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2014-02-14 03:17:17 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
I sometimes go on to use new stuff CCP adds, but then it just ends up with me getting ganked by 3 bhalls, 5 vindicators and 2 RR carriers, JIC I manage to actually do anything before I die.


Fleets are numerous on singularity. I was recently on a random fleet with random people of random corps and random alliances, with somewhat poor fleet-composition and only a few on comms, and we took down 3 remote-rep slowcats with faction modules and random support and unlucky lone wolves (faction modules, supercarriers and titans are the only thing of value on Singularity, since they are not seeded in stations and sold for 100 isk a piece like most everything else). But I've been on the other end of the pointy stick many times, and its usually entertaining. Just buy modules in dozens and save your fit (with ammo and scripts in cargo bay not fitted in the guns and modules), then you just click "fit" after you lose a ship and then your new ship is fitted in 1 second and you can go shoot again.
And once in a while, you figure out how to win against certain ships. I managed to get away from a blap-fit something or rather in an abaddon one time (got out of its very short optimal and then my tank held more than its passive tank so he warped out, so I won), and I managed to kill a geddon (one with no tank admittedly) while neuted out in an active-tanked laser ship (he didn't stagger his neuts so I managed to get off a volley twice between each neut-volley with my perfect capacitor skills by spamming F1 and being lucky that I weren't completely capped out as my scram entered new cycle, so my point held).
All sorts of funny and unexpected things happen. Its like a madhouse of interesting things Big smile
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#7 - 2014-02-14 13:52:30 UTC
Ronny Hugo wrote:
So killing other ships is only fun if it cost some poor player lots of effort? Are you evil or do you just sound like it by accident? :P


Maybe this is unfathomable for you, but yes. Shooting at ships is only fun when the ships involved represent player effort. This isn't because I am evil, this is because my brain refuses to release adrenaline when the consequence of losing is nonexistant.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#8 - 2014-02-14 14:11:23 UTC
Context of weren't made thread unreadable. Please try "wasn't"
Rainbow Dash
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-02-14 14:42:08 UTC
Most of the fun in eve is because there is risk involved with flying ships, so why bother setting up the test server and blowing up other ships? It's meaningless, nothing is at stake.

That also happens to be why the test server is empty most of the time.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#10 - 2014-02-14 16:07:57 UTC
Rainbow Dash wrote:
Most of the fun in eve is because there is risk involved with flying ships, so why bother setting up the test server and blowing up other ships? It's meaningless, nothing is at stake.

That also happens to be why the test server is empty most of the time.
QFT.

Games should offer a challenge. It's like I don't understand how people can get fun out of a game by jumping in, slapping in a god mode cheat then proceeding to one hit everything for the entire game. The test server is the same, nothing you are losing actually matters, so there's no challenge to balancing out the economic side of the game. You are just throwing free ships that have taken no effort to put together against each other, with no risk of losing anything important.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#11 - 2014-02-14 17:12:04 UTC
Thanks.
Matthew97
#12 - 2014-02-14 17:37:05 UTC
Here's 2 more questions.

1. Who gives a ****?
2. Why the hell does it matter?
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2014-02-14 17:55:26 UTC
So you have brilliantly concluded that Singularity does not have the same gameplay value that Tranquility has. You must be proud to make such a conclusion. Have you ever considered treating the two different servers with two different economic situations, sort of differently?
Singularity does not have the same value of Tranquility, you can't feel the delight of destroying thousands of manhours of work on Singularity, but it goes the other way as well. There are gameplay of value on Singularity that you can't have on Tranquility.
On Singularity its not a huge difference in whether you chase someone off (so they warp off) or if you explode their ship. And you don't feel like you lost a prize when the enemy warps off, you feel like you won an engagement and scared them off. And when you yourself get exploded you don't have to mine for a billion lifetimes to make another one, you just adjust your fit and ask for a rematch. The value lay in that you can immediately adjust your strategy and immediately try again.
Since no ships really cost a lot fleets don't take things too seriously, so you aren't usually hotdropped in a blob and ganked because a supercarrier pilot batphones. You actually stand a fighting chance more often than not. At least you stand enough of a chance to learn something even if the supercarrier gets away or if you have to disengage first.
Every time you engage someone on Singularity you are better at keeping transversal, you are better at keeping optimal, you are better at remembering what ammo to use, you are better at focusing fire and keeping out of the bombers way, you get better at staying aligned and finding the closest align celestial, you get lots of chancers that change the battle and you can actually fly your ship more than you spin it in station.

Singularity is different than Tranquility, and I think Singularity has gameplay value. But it is from different sources than on Tranquility. Play Singularity for its value, play Tranquility for its value. Don't come here and say A is terrible because it does not have the gameplay value that is present on B.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#14 - 2014-02-14 23:59:15 UTC
Whoa, ease up there buddy! Enjoying SiSi is fine. I enjoy it for almost the same reasons. It allows me to try wacky fits at no cost and throw them against a slightly wackier ship. Just trying to explain the absence of mayhem by the absence of a reason to be mad at something. As for why there aren't that many people on, you already answered your own question. It allows you to learn a lot in a short amount of time. For many, myself included, the real enjoyment comes from executing those findings on Tranquility.
Wingmate
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-02-15 00:20:45 UTC
Ronny Hugo wrote:
So you have brilliantly concluded that Singularity does not have the same gameplay value that Tranquility has. You must be proud to make such a conclusion. Have you ever considered treating the two different servers with two different economic situations, sort of differently?
Singularity does not have the same value of Tranquility, you can't feel the delight of destroying thousands of manhours of work on Singularity, but it goes the other way as well. There are gameplay of value on Singularity that you can't have on Tranquility.
On Singularity its not a huge difference in whether you chase someone off (so they warp off) or if you explode their ship. And you don't feel like you lost a prize when the enemy warps off, you feel like you won an engagement and scared them off. And when you yourself get exploded you don't have to mine for a billion lifetimes to make another one, you just adjust your fit and ask for a rematch. The value lay in that you can immediately adjust your strategy and immediately try again.
Since no ships really cost a lot fleets don't take things too seriously, so you aren't usually hotdropped in a blob and ganked because a supercarrier pilot batphones. You actually stand a fighting chance more often than not. At least you stand enough of a chance to learn something even if the supercarrier gets away or if you have to disengage first.
Every time you engage someone on Singularity you are better at keeping transversal, you are better at keeping optimal, you are better at remembering what ammo to use, you are better at focusing fire and keeping out of the bombers way, you get better at staying aligned and finding the closest align celestial, you get lots of chancers that change the battle and you can actually fly your ship more than you spin it in station.

Singularity is different than Tranquility, and I think Singularity has gameplay value. But it is from different sources than on Tranquility. Play Singularity for its value, play Tranquility for its value. Don't come here and say A is terrible because it does not have the gameplay value that is present on B.


how long have you been playing this game that you don't realize that big **** isn't fun unless you're using it to blow up other people's ****?

i make spreadsheets for pretty cheap. contact me for more info.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=197433
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2014-02-15 00:57:02 UTC
Wingmate wrote:
how long have you been playing this game that you don't realize that big **** isn't fun unless you're using it to blow up other people's ****?

Thought exercise: Why does someone losing something in a fight have to represent hours of their time for the fight to matter? For many people (usually found in games other than eve mind you), the fun of a fight is developing a strategy, executing it well and adapting to your opponents strategy. Eve actually does a horrible job of appealing to these players because of the large length of time between fights. As you get more experienced it becomes easier to reduce this time, but there is an appeal to being able to re-engage in a fight immediately.

Many if not most eve pvp'ers will tell you that the fun of a fight comes from the adrenaline rush of having something on the line. I personally hate this. I like the idea of being able to compete with other people without worrying about whether I win or lose, but knowing I can always to better the next time.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie's Space Mediation Service!
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#17 - 2014-02-15 01:42:12 UTC
Ronny Hugo wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
and killing lol-fit carriers/dreads that cost 100 isk on a field littered with thousands of abandoned drones gets old real fast.

So killing other ships is only fun if it cost some poor player lots of effort? Are you evil or do you just sound like it by accident?

One word: competition.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#18 - 2014-02-15 03:29:16 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Ronny Hugo wrote:
So killing other ships is only fun if it cost some poor player lots of effort? Are you evil or do you just sound like it by accident? :P


Maybe this is unfathomable for you, but yes. Shooting at ships is only fun when the ships involved represent player effort. This isn't because I am evil, this is because my brain refuses to release adrenaline when the consequence of losing is nonexistant.


This is EVE in a nutshell.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#19 - 2014-02-15 21:48:25 UTC
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie wrote:
Wingmate wrote:
how long have you been playing this game that you don't realize that big **** isn't fun unless you're using it to blow up other people's ****?

Thought exercise: Why does someone losing something in a fight have to represent hours of their time for the fight to matter? For many people (usually found in games other than eve mind you), the fun of a fight is developing a strategy, executing it well and adapting to your opponents strategy. Eve actually does a horrible job of appealing to these players because of the large length of time between fights. As you get more experienced it becomes easier to reduce this time, but there is an appeal to being able to re-engage in a fight immediately.

Many if not most eve pvp'ers will tell you that the fun of a fight comes from the adrenaline rush of having something on the line. I personally hate this. I like the idea of being able to compete with other people without worrying about whether I win or lose, but knowing I can always to better the next time.


Because working cost into said strategy is a part of the game? I took the game design principle of cost not being an immediate factor in effectiveness, as an economic challenge to overcome your enemies strategies while not breaking your own bank. Deciding whether or not to engage, show up for a timer, etc. is all influenced by your capacity to pay for whatever you need, and actually field it at the right time. It's a scale factor too. Taking over a systems ISK faucets is a whole other level of competition then random pew. One is about long-term economic development of corps and alliances, the other about wasting ISK and having fun showing off.
Ronny Hugo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-02-15 22:56:37 UTC
But the people that are active on Singularity, that have supercarriers and titans, why did they not go have a blast when the devs said a mirror was less than 10 days out? In the mirror their singularity ships would be replaced by their tranquility ships, so if they lost some supers they would get them replaced automatically.
This is a point that has yet to be answered by all the besserwissers.
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