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Harrassment of new players

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Anslo
Scope Works
#161 - 2014-02-13 22:50:55 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
I'm not saying the option to kill and steal should not exist.
I understand the game is a sandbox and it's appeal happens to be the ability to choose.
I fully appreciate this aspect.

All I'm saying is:
Those who have chosen to walk the lower path cannot be upset when those of us who have chosen to walk the higher, look down upon those beneath us.


And what we are saying is that there is no moral or immoral act in a video game. Or a game in general for that matter.


Then I'd say that's an impasse. Also WE do not think that way. YOU and a certain group of players do. There are those of us who call douchebaggery as it is, game or not.


No, there are those of you who chose to restrict behavior for yourselves beyond what the game itself restricts. That's called RP.


No that's called not being a ****. We chose to create content in different ways. I consider mine more positive than blapping a new player and saying I'm 'helping the game.' You're not helping **** in my view.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#162 - 2014-02-13 22:51:10 UTC
Divine Entervention wrote:

Those who have chosen to walk the lower path cannot be upset when those of us who have chosen to walk the higher, look down upon those beneath us.


walking a higher path means it's more likely you'll suffer a deadly fall ... just sayin

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#163 - 2014-02-13 22:51:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Marie Trudeau wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
I'm not saying the option to kill and steal should not exist.
I understand the game is a sandbox and it's appeal happens to be the ability to choose.
I fully appreciate this aspect.

All I'm saying is:
Those who have chosen to walk the lower path cannot be upset when those of us who have chosen to walk the higher, look down upon those beneath us.


It doesn't make a lot of sense to do that when all the others are doing are things that are allowed by the rules of the game. I don't think it makes much sense to think of oneself as a better person, in the context of the game, because one self-restricts beyond what the rules permit. Everyone has mixed motives for their behavior, and no-one is pure -- not even close. A truly "high" approach is to accept that in a game context the rules *are* the ethics of the game, full stop.


Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.


And whom else's judgement on "should" is appropriate in a game, if not my own?


You do what you want. No one is trying to stop you.

But just as you're making the choice to destroy a 30million isk investment that might've taken 10 hours of personal investment for your 30 seconds of self gratification, I'll make the choice to believe you're a despicable person unworthy of respect.

That's part of this game's beauty, isn't it?

The choices
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#164 - 2014-02-13 22:51:33 UTC
Rhes wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

You should think about that statement the next time you go to hit the Post button.

You're a nasty piece of work Mr Rhes, but you do make me giggle.

That's two drinks I'mma buy you now when we get WiS bars.

Might even get up on a table ... just for you. Oops

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#165 - 2014-02-13 22:52:11 UTC
Anslo wrote:

And why is your judgement appropriate or worthy of accepting?


Because I'm the one playing the game.

Which is why you and only you can determine what "should" is for yourself. And each to their own.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mario Putzo
#166 - 2014-02-13 22:53:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Divine Entervention wrote:

You do what you want. No one is trying to stop you.

But just as you're making the choice to destroy a 30million isk investment that might've taken 10 hours of personal investment for your 30 seconds of self gratification, I'll make the choice to believe you're a despicable person unworthy of respect.

That's part of this game's beauty, isn't it?

The choices



If it takes 10 hours to get 30 Mil making you mad enough to leave the game is probably better for you overall. You would be wasting a lot less time.
Marie Trudeau
Trudeau Industrie SA
#167 - 2014-02-13 22:54:39 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Anslo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:
I'm not saying the option to kill and steal should not exist.
I understand the game is a sandbox and it's appeal happens to be the ability to choose.
I fully appreciate this aspect.

All I'm saying is:
Those who have chosen to walk the lower path cannot be upset when those of us who have chosen to walk the higher, look down upon those beneath us.


And what we are saying is that there is no moral or immoral act in a video game. Or a game in general for that matter.


Then I'd say that's an impasse. Also WE do not think that way. YOU and a certain group of players do. There are those of us who call douchebaggery as it is, game or not.


No, there are those of you who chose to restrict behavior for yourselves beyond what the game itself restricts. That's called RP.


Or for numerous other reasons, including playstyle, personal preferences. And all of that is fine as long as you aren't looking "down" on other players who are playing their own playstyle according to the rules as it permits them to do. *Disclaimer: that actually isn't my own preferred playstyle, so I'm not defending my own playstyle, but rather the right of other players to play according to their own playstyles that do not violate the rules.

I also have no problem with people lobbying to change the rules, although that's an uphill battle because the rules have been in place for quite some time and people have lived with them well enough.
Arcelian
0nus
#168 - 2014-02-13 22:54:46 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Arcelian wrote:


Ganking a miner within his first two weeks of the game, which then makes that player quit, is perfectly acceptable in eve. It is not acceptable for me to load my 9 mil and start gunning down children(even though people do just that these days lol). What's the difference? Well, ones a video game, the other is not. But getting to the root of it, both actions have consequences, whether they are viewed as acceptable or not.

The problem is in the culture of eve, retaining new players isn't as important as getting your jollies off whenever you see fit. We seem to have the mentality of only the best and smartest people can play eve, and if they can't survive the tribulations I put them through, then oh well, good riddance.


I would ask what the problem is with this? This game has survived to be one of the very few subscription based games still on the market.

And the ones that are, unlike EVE, are going up in flames.


That's a logical fallacy. Eve is surviving just fine, so it must not be a problem. The truth is that poaching newbies does cause a lack of retention, whether that problem is big enough to cause eve to fail is not the point. The point is it's pretty dastardly to lose new players for no other reason than easy, squishy targets. And that is, the only reason.

That being said, CCP can do NOTHING to change this with rules. Perhaps extend the safe zone for newbies maybe, but that change needs to come in the form of players mindset. Poaching a new player should be frowned upon, not glorified as it is now.
Arcelian
0nus
#169 - 2014-02-13 22:58:04 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Arcelian wrote:


Ganking a miner within his first two weeks of the game, which then makes that player quit, is perfectly acceptable in eve. It is not acceptable for me to load my 9 mil and start gunning down children(even though people do just that these days lol). What's the difference? Well, ones a video game, the other is not. But getting to the root of it, both actions have consequences, whether they are viewed as acceptable or not.

The problem is in the culture of eve, retaining new players isn't as important as getting your jollies off whenever you see fit. We seem to have the mentality of only the best and smartest people can play eve, and if they can't survive the tribulations I put them through, then oh well, good riddance.


I would ask what the problem is with this? This game has survived to be one of the very few subscription based games still on the market.

And the ones that are, unlike EVE, are going up in flames.



Which is really the rub, isn't it? It's simply ludicrous to claim that EVE is dying because of scammers/gankers/whatever killed your ship or took your space money, because they are not somehow new to EVE. They've been here since day one, and ten years later the game is still going strong. Obviously, if anything is going to kill EVE it's not the things that have been present since its birth.


Where did I say anywhere Eve is dying? And once again, eve isn't dying, so newbie poaching must not be a problem. Wrong.

Pretty much everything I said in my other post covers this one as well.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#170 - 2014-02-13 22:58:14 UTC
Arcelian wrote:

That's a logical fallacy. Eve is surviving just fine, so it must not be a problem. The truth is that poaching newbies does cause a lack of retention, whether that problem is big enough to cause eve to fail is not the point. The point is it's pretty dastardly to lose new players for no other reason than easy, squishy targets. And that is, the only reason.

That being said, CCP can do NOTHING to change this with rules. Perhaps extend the safe zone for newbies maybe, but that change needs to come in the form of players mindset. Poaching a new player should be frowned upon, not glorified as it is now.


How is it "glorified", aside from the people having a chuckle at how stupid the OP is? Would you like it if we all apologized when someone who doesn't want to learn the game quits in a whiny ragefest, and we found it funny?

And you need to understand that "surviving" is a hell of an achievement in this market. It's more than almost any of EVE's competition have managed.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#171 - 2014-02-13 23:00:38 UTC
Marie Trudeau wrote:

Or for numerous other reasons, including playstyle, personal preferences. And all of that is fine as long as you aren't looking "down" on other players who are playing their own playstyle according to the rules as it permits them to do. *Disclaimer: that actually isn't my own preferred playstyle, so I'm not defending my own playstyle, but rather the right of other players to play according to their own playstyles that do not violate the rules.



Why not? They're damned determined to do it to me, as evidenced by our new friend Divine Entervention here. Why shouldn't I respond in kind? Especially when these "people" tell me every day that the way I play this videogame shouldn't be allowed to exist because they don't like it.

That's what is really immoral here, if you ask me.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mario Putzo
#172 - 2014-02-13 23:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Arcelian wrote:

That's a logical fallacy. Eve is surviving just fine, so it must not be a problem. The truth is that poaching newbies does cause a lack of retention, whether that problem is big enough to cause eve to fail is not the point. The point is it's pretty dastardly to lose new players for no other reason than easy, squishy targets. And that is, the only reason.

That being said, CCP can do NOTHING to change this with rules. Perhaps extend the safe zone for newbies maybe, but that change needs to come in the form of players mindset. Poaching a new player should be frowned upon, not glorified as it is now.


How is it "glorified", aside from the people having a chuckle at how stupid the OP is? Would you like it if we all apologized when someone who doesn't want to learn the game quits in a whiny ragefest, and we found it funny?

And you need to understand that "surviving" is a hell of an achievement in this market. It's more than almost any of EVE's competition have managed.


I blame this largely on CCP not the players. There isn't anything in the tutorial that pushes players to join Player Corps. Instead they get stuck in the cesspool that is Rookie Chat and NPC corps. While there are people there that do help most are either AFK Cloaky Alts or Scouts, or trolls, scammers what have you (I know because I have 2 dudes in NPC Chat and its toxic more often then not).

If CCP made an effort to direct new players to player corporations I think that people would have a much different appreciation for the community. Truth be told EVE players are generally pretty helpful, especially when you are in the same corp.

This why I think you should be invited to NPC Corps that you do missions and stuff for, because at least you know that the other people in the NPC corps are also at least active, and doing missions for the same place as you. I.E. Doing missions for SOE, gets you an invite to SoE NPC corp is made up of PC's that are all doing SoE missions.
Anslo
Scope Works
#173 - 2014-02-13 23:02:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Arcelian wrote:

That's a logical fallacy. Eve is surviving just fine, so it must not be a problem. The truth is that poaching newbies does cause a lack of retention, whether that problem is big enough to cause eve to fail is not the point. The point is it's pretty dastardly to lose new players for no other reason than easy, squishy targets. And that is, the only reason.

That being said, CCP can do NOTHING to change this with rules. Perhaps extend the safe zone for newbies maybe, but that change needs to come in the form of players mindset. Poaching a new player should be frowned upon, not glorified as it is now.


How is it "glorified", aside from the people having a chuckle at how stupid the OP is? Would you like it if we all apologized when someone who doesn't want to learn the game quits in a whiny ragefest, and we found it funny?

No we want people who actually point and provide resources to teach the new player instead of just tell him to GTFO. Some people did it, thankfully. Vocal people like you, though, drown them out.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#174 - 2014-02-13 23:03:37 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Divine Entervention wrote:

You do what you want. No one is trying to stop you.

But just as you're making the choice to destroy a 30million isk investment that might've taken 10 hours of personal investment for your 30 seconds of self gratification, I'll make the choice to believe you're a despicable person unworthy of respect.

That's part of this game's beauty, isn't it?

The choices



If it takes 10 hours to get 30 Mil making you mad enough to leave the game is probably better for you overall. You would be wasting a lot less time.


I write alot better than you. To some, that may matter. To others, not so much.
Because of it, I'm unsure of what it is you're trying to say.

Are you saying that I think losing 30 million makes me mad and want to leave? Are you saying that if someone feels that way, they should want to leave? Are you saying that if it takes 10 hours to get 30million isk, then the person should want to leave?

I'm enjoying the contrast, please elaborate so we can continue.
Marsha Mallow
#175 - 2014-02-13 23:04:36 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
English isn't that hard is it?

Quote:
us
pronoun
1.
used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people as the object of a verb or preposition.

It's strangely phrased, perhaps I'm misreading or it was posted by a non English speaker, but it's a curiously pleasing statement if you strip out the "us"
Divine Entervention wrote:
Those who have chosen to walk the lower path cannot be upset when those who have chosen to walk the higher, look down upon those beneath.

Thanks for the dictionary definition of "us" though, Mario.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Mario Putzo
#176 - 2014-02-13 23:06:54 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
English isn't that hard is it?

Quote:
us
pronoun
1.
used by a speaker to refer to himself or herself and one or more other people as the object of a verb or preposition.

It's strangely phrased, perhaps I'm misreading or it was posted by a non English speaker, but it's a curiously pleasing statement if you strip out the "us"
Divine Entervention wrote:
Those who have chosen to walk the lower path cannot be upset when those who have chosen to walk the higher, look down upon those beneath.

Thanks for the dictionary definition of "us" though, Mario.


Ya but that isn't what he said so I fail to see the relevance of your post.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#177 - 2014-02-13 23:07:41 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Arcelian wrote:

That's a logical fallacy. Eve is surviving just fine, so it must not be a problem. The truth is that poaching newbies does cause a lack of retention, whether that problem is big enough to cause eve to fail is not the point. The point is it's pretty dastardly to lose new players for no other reason than easy, squishy targets. And that is, the only reason.

That being said, CCP can do NOTHING to change this with rules. Perhaps extend the safe zone for newbies maybe, but that change needs to come in the form of players mindset. Poaching a new player should be frowned upon, not glorified as it is now.


How is it "glorified", aside from the people having a chuckle at how stupid the OP is? Would you like it if we all apologized when someone who doesn't want to learn the game quits in a whiny ragefest, and we found it funny?

No we want people who actually point and provide resources to teach the new player instead of just tell him to GTFO. Some people did it, thankfully. Vocal people like you, though, drown them out.


You have a bad habit of misunderstand who I am and how I do business.

If someone makes a ragequit post, then they're not suited for the game in the first place. Good riddance, don't let the door hit you.

But to anyone who has ever asked me for help, I am the soul of helpfulness. To me, it's all about attitude. If someone is showing that they are behaving like the kind of person I wouldn't personally play with, I have no problem if they quit the game, and I have less of a problem helping them do it. EVE is not for everyone, nor will it ever be.

But that doesn't mean I'm can baiting on the undocks in the noob systems. It's not binary.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#178 - 2014-02-13 23:13:11 UTC
Quote:
3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

Thread locked.

Harassment of any player, but especially new players, is a serious offense and I suggest you file a support ticket to let CCP know about it: http://community.eveonline.com/support/support-tickets/

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.