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Dev Blog: Alliance Logos & You - Clarification on submissions

First post First post
Author
Avalloc
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2014-02-13 19:14:26 UTC
Darius JOHNSON wrote:
What I want to know is why CCP wants to steal other people's IP? What's the business plan here? That's a good question and if you're going to go back to pretending to be decent you might want to explain to people how you're going to profit from their work and exploit them going forward.


This likely has to do with upcoming comics and show if I had to guess.
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#42 - 2014-02-13 19:14:51 UTC
So what's the deal with this, CCP? If we disagree with you taking over ownership of our IP, what happens then? Do we pull our logo? Do we have to submit a new one that replaces our old one, which you then take ownership of?

Why do we have to turn over ownership to something that is uniquely ours?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#43 - 2014-02-13 19:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Weaselior wrote:
oh i see what you did there:

Quote:
3.3. Licensee shall not:
3.3.1. challenge the validity of CCP’s rights to the Licensed Property or CCP Marks or any registration thereof;
3.3.2. contest the fact that its rights under this Agreement are solely those of a licensee;
3.3.3. attempt to register the Licensed Property or any of the CCP Marks absent of or contrary to direction from CCP;
3.3.4. use the Licensed Property or CCP Marks in any manner that would jeopardize CCP’s rights therein; or
3.3.5. knowingly do any act that would invalidate or be likely to invalidate the CCP’s copyright and/or trademark registrations.


your lawyers know your attempt to assert the eula transfers copyright is bunk so you basically make people promise they will not point out the emperor has no clothes

basically "sure we don't own it, but you agree you won't point that out to the court"

that actually might be enforceable, but your licence is clearly a trojan horse to cover up the faulty transfer of copyright to ccp and get 3.3.3.1 in there and not a friendly sure you guys can use your own alliance logo

i retract my comment you need better lawyers that's pretty cunning


That wouldn't hold up either, for the same reason the original version wouldn't.

They'd have no legal recourse. The most threatening thing CCP could do would be to remove your logo from EVE.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2014-02-13 19:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Pinky Hops wrote:

That wouldn't hold up either, for the same reason the original version wouldn't.

They'd have no legal recourse. The most threatening thing CCP could would be to remove your logo from EVE.

it probably would

i can agree not to raise valid defenses or valid claims by contract, so if i doodle an alliance logo and submit it to ccp, i still own it but I've contractually agreed not to ever file a lawsuit on that basis or raise it as a defense if ccp sues me

also you contractually agree to sign any document they shove at you to get the mark registered in their name:

Quote:
3.4. CCP shall be responsible for copyright and trademark registration and maintenance. Licensee shall cooperate with CCP and shall execute any documents reasonably required by CCP or supply CCP with any samples or other materials reasonably necessary to maintain the Licensed Property.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Ortho Loess
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#45 - 2014-02-13 19:20:24 UTC
The Volition Cult has released most versions of our logo under Creative Commons. The only exception so far is the version that was sent to CCP (with a grey background), because the ownership is still under debate and we are willing to talk about transferring ownership or a license for that version.

Creative Commons allows use by anyone, including commercial. We want anyone in VOLT to be able to use our logo as they see fit, we are happy for CCP to use it too.

We are not going to let them dictate what we can do with it. They do not own it.
Juliette Asanari
Voodoo Children
#46 - 2014-02-13 19:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Juliette Asanari
Uma D wrote:
Just out of curiousity, since i am not a lawyer and only know how thing are around here.

The german law clearely states that ownership of intellectual property is not transferable, the only thing that is transferable is the "right to use" MY intellectual property. Even if i grant someone the "right to use", i still am the owner of said intellectual property and as long as i do not sign a contract granting someone the exlcusive rights to use, i can use any of my own creations for whatever purpose i please to use it.

So claiming ownership of my intellectual property would pretty much be against german law, and as a german citizen i guess german law applies to me.

So how is it legal for ccp to claim ownership of something i created and can not transfer the ownership of?


Ok, first of all IANAL either, however I've had to deal with German copyright law because of :politics: Thus, I'll look at this agreement from a 'German' legal point of view.

The way I read the license agreement is that you (I assume you are the creator of said alliance logo or that the creator has given you the rights to said logo) by submitting the logo to CCP have given them exclusive rights to 'your' logo. Therefore, you can no longer use your logo without permission from CCP (similar to how artists with a contract with GEMA can no longer perform their own music without paying fees to GEMA)

You can (under German law) revoke the license to CCP upon 3 months of notice (see §42 UrhG, this right cannot be forfeit - however CCP would be eligible for financial compensation). However LA 7.7 states that the LA 'shall be governed by and construed' under Islandic Law. I don't know of any EU treaties that would sort this out.

Now, CCP grants you the right to use your logo (and only 'your' logo - no EVE or CCP or other Alliances logos) for commercial purposes to [paraphrased] cover for the alliances RL-costs. (There is no 'fair use' under German IP-law, so no parody allowed What? ) Here comes the first problem: Alliances are no legal entities outside of CCPland (unless some alliance starts incorporating - which would be... interesting). Thus, the RL-cost of an alliance are always the RL-cost of a person (most likely) or a RL-corp (in theory). Does the licensee have to be the same person that pays for the server? How are the RL-cost of an alliance determined? (also, remember that income or sales might be subject to VAT and/or Income-tax Blink )

Also, as someone else has already pointed out - the license only covers goods - not media - any reason for that?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-02-13 19:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Dolan
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

That wouldn't hold up either, for the same reason the original version wouldn't.

They'd have no legal recourse. The most threatening thing CCP could would be to remove your logo from EVE.

it probably would

i can agree not to raise valid defenses or valid claims by contract, so if i doodle an alliance logo and submit it to ccp, i still own it but I've contractually agreed not to ever file a lawsuit on that basis or raise it as a defense if ccp sues me


I highly doubt CCP would ever let it escalate that far, it would be horrible for publicity and they would lose anyways.

You could still sue, and if CCP pointed to the lines where it said you "agreed not to" the judge would laugh.

It's kind of like per-marital agreements. They almost never hold up in court.

-snip- (please no legal advice on EVE forums)-CCP Dolan
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-02-13 19:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagehi
Avalloc wrote:
Darius JOHNSON wrote:
What I want to know is why CCP wants to steal other people's IP? What's the business plan here? That's a good question and if you're going to go back to pretending to be decent you might want to explain to people how you're going to profit from their work and exploit them going forward.


This likely has to do with upcoming comics and show if I had to guess.

It is likely entirely because of the show and comic books. I'm curious what they will have to do if, say... Goonswarm told them they couldn't use their name or logo.

"The Bee Alliance attacked Military Company Alliance and eventually took it down from the inside..."

"The Mob Enforcer Alliance fleet engaged Bacteriophage Alliance supers in Asaki..."

Oh the hilarity that would ensue!
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2014-02-13 19:24:00 UTC
so really the question is what CCP is going to do when existing copyright owners of alliance logos decline this kind offer:

Quote:
Over time, we will be offering our existing Alliances the new license. We believe this will help with any inadvertent or accidental restrictions on the sale of Alliance products, and avoid any disruption to funding server and other “real world” costs of maintaining your Alliance.


since it's the existing logos they need to get their mitts on

no alliance should accept that licence because it's signing away a lot of rights for absolutely nothing: ccp can compel new alliances to agree to it as a condition of being added to the game, but that doesn't cover the logos of every current alliance so they'll have to find some tricksy way to get existing alliances to sign onto it, probably by adding something where you automatically agree to it by performing some routine task and you don't read the fine print

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-02-13 19:25:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Ortho Loess wrote:
The Volition Cult has released most versions of our logo under Creative Commons. The only exception so far is the version that was sent to CCP (with a grey background), because the ownership is still under debate and we are willing to talk about transferring ownership or a license for that version.

Creative Commons allows use by anyone, including commercial. We want anyone in VOLT to be able to use our logo as they see fit, we are happy for CCP to use it too.

We are not going to let them dictate what we can do with it. They do not own it.


Prepare to have your logo removed from EVE.

This seems to be the only recourse CCP has allowed for.
Ortho Loess
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#51 - 2014-02-13 19:26:22 UTC
Other people have pointed out several things that didn't occur to me on first read.

It's looking more and more like the new license is really just making things far worse than they were without it. The exact opposite of what CCP Falcon claimed the point to be in his blog.

I like to think that it is the CCP lawyers attempting to pull a fast one on Falcon and that he will take on board the comments here and tell them it is not acceptable.
Anomaly One
Doomheim
#52 - 2014-02-13 19:28:16 UTC
Quote:
(including selling “Alliance logo” merchandise to help fund the costs of running an Alliance)


err what ?

Never forget. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8sfaN8zT8E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5l_ZjVyRxx4 Trust me, I'm an Anomaly. DUST 514 FOR PC

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#53 - 2014-02-13 19:30:10 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:
err what ?


servers are expensive

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2014-02-13 19:30:27 UTC
Anomaly One wrote:
Quote:
(including selling “Alliance logo” merchandise to help fund the costs of running an Alliance)


err what ?


Servers to host teamspeak/forums/killboards/etc are not cheap.

efb.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#55 - 2014-02-13 19:36:29 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
I highly doubt CCP would ever let it escalate that far, it would be horrible for publicity and they would lose anyways.

You could still sue, and if CCP pointed to the lines where it said you "agreed not to" the judge would laugh.

It's kind of like per-marital agreements. They almost never hold up in court.

Copyright law trumps cute statements in EULA.

this post has no relationship to reality and nobody should assume that this is an accurate statement of the law anywhere in the world

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#56 - 2014-02-13 19:37:24 UTC
Third party rights for a company printing T-shirts? Licence is non-transferrable and can't sublicence so we would have to print ourselves.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Klyith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2014-02-13 19:38:20 UTC
Weaselior wrote:

i can agree not to raise valid defenses or valid claims by contract, so if i doodle an alliance logo and submit it to ccp, i still own it but I've contractually agreed not to ever file a lawsuit on that basis or raise it as a defense if ccp sues me

How does that work for third parties then?

Lets say I start up "Alliance Ripoff Merchandise Inc" and start producing shirts and tchotchkes with all eve alliance logos on them. CCP sends a C&D to me saying they own that IP, knock it off. I then say "show me the title", what then? I'm not obligated to do jack under the eula should CCP sue about it.

I'm no lawyer but this feels like it's worse for CCP than just mandating that logos give CCP an unlimited license on the IP.

Weaselior wrote:
also you contractually agree to sign any document they shove at you to get the mark registered in their name:

Quote:
3.4. CCP shall be responsible for copyright and trademark registration and maintenance. Licensee shall cooperate with CCP and shall execute any documents reasonably required by CCP or supply CCP with any samples or other materials reasonably necessary to maintain the Licensed Property.

What type of penalties would they be able to take, if they showed up at CEO_X's door and demand he sign some paperwork and he refused? That would actually be a breach of the eula contract, but it's a clickware contract with no exchange of value.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-02-13 19:42:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
I highly doubt CCP would ever let it escalate that far, it would be horrible for publicity and they would lose anyways.

You could still sue, and if CCP pointed to the lines where it said you "agreed not to" the judge would laugh.

It's kind of like per-marital agreements. They almost never hold up in court.

Copyright law trumps cute statements in EULA.

this post has no relationship to reality and nobody should assume that this is an accurate statement of the law anywhere in the world


Clicking a checkbox has never, anywhere in the world, prevented the ability to sue somebody over IP.

I'd love to see an example of that. Please, show me.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2014-02-13 19:43:35 UTC
Klyith wrote:
[How does that work for third parties then?

the contract wouldn't bind third parties and they'd be able to point out ccp didn't actually own the ip if sued

but there would be no parties who would be able to sue ccp (presuming they got the holder of the copyright tagged with that licence) or anyone CCP licenced the IP to for money and that's what they're worried about, not so much going on the offensive

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2014-02-13 19:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
I'm, still trying to wrap my head around this so maybe someone could explain the following example:

A gaming community decides to create an EVE division. They already have their own branding etc in place and decide to reuse it for their EVE Online alliance logo. The copyright for the alliance logo has been passed to CCP and while the gaming community still has a license to use this logo in reference to their (defunct) EVE alliance they aren't allowed to use it for anything else, are they?

To reiterate CCP owns the copyright for this image.
There is a commercial Starcraft 2 and Dota 2 esports team that uses this image all the time.

To me the second image looks like an obvious derivative of the first and I certainly can't evade someone's copyright claim by simply putting my name under his IP (?).

Assuming the alliance logo was uploaded to CCP with the permission of the original copyright holder, would the esports team have to stop using a derivative of it as their logo? After all they are not only a commercial enterprise but they also promote competing games from other publishers - this is way outside the limits set by CCP's license for the copyrighted image.

What am I missing?

.