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The 'Local' chat issue
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Justin Cody
War Firm
#1 - 2014-02-13 17:10:47 UTC
In W/J-Space we don't have local as intel unless you actively participate in that system. We like this and don't understand why the rest of null sec gets free intel.

Proposal: CONCORD like the rest of the empires are losing influence and power to a degree as we post/trans-human capsuleers assume greater and greater responsibilities and powers.

CONCORD should cease providing local channel monitoring services for free.


  • New Sov related POS module (1 per system similar to a cyno jammer in hp and also being outside the shields) would enable instant and constant local traffic monitoring. This would be allowed at strategic level 2
  • The rest of null would have a local like W-space
  • NPC null would be instant but only in those systems where the NPCs hold sov (here's looking at you Fountain Core).


Low Sec would be a delayed response...say to coincide with a standard decloak timer of 30 secs and no change would be made to high sec where CONCORD would still exercise its ruthless authority.

What this achieves:

  • Group efforts for mining and other isk making activities becomes more encouraged
  • ISBoxers put at disadvantage (because screw your free intel thats why)
  • Staying aligned is no longer enough of a tactic for people who only NPC
  • Acts as additional sink or resource sov entities have to put forward to secure ratting areas
  • Allows meta-gamer spies to sabotage NPCing areas
  • Creates pockets of uncertainty that everyone can exploit for more destructo-goodness fun
  • Small gangs could disable the intel mechanism in system and deny safety to unprepared denizens.
  • Brings back ninja ratting as a thing


/flame away guys
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2 - 2014-02-13 17:15:39 UTC
this definitely has never been suggested before.

Why would npc nullsec get instant local while local gets delayed response? that doesn't make sense.

No major changes to local should happen without a proper overhaul of dscan, integrating it with the sensor overlay and taking away the requirement to constantly click.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-02-13 17:19:47 UTC
+1, Except the Local IFF module should be attached to gates rather than POSes, so it can be attacked. This also makes sense since the gate activation is presumably what triggers the appearance in local.

It's also actually useful for defenders, because it does not give away intel to attackers - something that us W-space pilots also like and often use to our advantage.

You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#4 - 2014-02-13 17:30:31 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place


Why would that be necessary?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#5 - 2014-02-13 18:01:48 UTC
Batelle wrote:
this definitely has never been suggested before.

Why would npc nullsec get instant local while local gets delayed response? that doesn't make sense.

No major changes to local should happen without a proper overhaul of dscan, integrating it with the sensor overlay and taking away the requirement to constantly click.



npc null would get instant local due to npc sov as this is a sov based mechanic.

as to the rest of your statement...you should have to click, but they could have the scan cycle a few times before you need to reclick (10 second cycle) so spamming isn't needed. But in no way should you just get intel for having the window open. The sensor overlay is for sites and anoms that have a special beacon that is broadcasting. This system has already been overhauled and while iteration should occur there is no reason to say no to changes without jesus overhaul.

#dealwithit
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-02-13 18:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Batelle wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place


Why would that be necessary?


Because the issue is free intel. Jump metrics on the map are intel that we use when selecting null sec systems to harass. The lack of this information in w-space is one of the things that makes W-space much more engaging, at least to me.

There is another piece of intel available on the map and via API that we use, which is the number of NPC kills. This is available for w-space which is why you don't see that many PVE guys in w-space these days.

Here's how:

We scan down a chain of WHs and collect the J-numbers. Then we sit nice and safe in a POS casually glancing at wormnav or similar now and again. When we see NPC kills rising in a w-space system we know someone is in there in a nice expensive ship killing rats.

Then we mobilise a small fleet and return with some loot and a few corpses.

Such as this: http://www.toha-conglomerate.org/killboard/index.php/kill_related/6296/

These guys were unusual in that they didn't drop faction modules, but they did kindly leave us 400m in sleeper loot.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#7 - 2014-02-13 18:38:10 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place


Why would that be necessary?


Because the issue is free intel. Jump metrics on the map are intel that we use when selecting null sec systems to harass. The lack of this information in w-space is one of the things that makes W-space much more engaging, at least to me.

There is another piece of intel available on the map and via API that we use, which is the number of NPC kills. This is available for w-space which is why you don't see that many PVE guys in w-space these days.

Here's how:

We scan down a chain of WHs and collect the J-numbers. Then we sit nice and safe in a POS casually glancing at wormnav or similar now and again. When we see NPC kills rising in a w-space system we know someone is in there in a nice expensive ship killing rats.

Then we mobilise a small fleet and return with some loot and a few corpses.

Such as this: http://www.toha-conglomerate.org/killboard/index.php/kill_related/6296/

These guys were unusual in that they didn't drop faction modules, but they did kindly leave us 400m in sleeper loot.


That's great for you, but so what? Eliminating one form of free intel is not a reason to eliminate another, entirely separate form of intel used for a completely different purpose. Jumps per hour/24 hours is sufficiently broad and anonymous that I don't see any connection to this topic about local, aside from the overly broad concept that all free intel is bad, which is a stretch at best.

Scanning down a long chain and then just waiting for dotlan to light up is pretty devious, however.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Hra Neuvosto
Party Cat Enterprises
#8 - 2014-02-13 18:58:44 UTC
Remove d-scan, local and all jump information from the map.
Mario Putzo
#9 - 2014-02-13 19:19:52 UTC
I know they could make a deployable that blocks local chat! Because deployables are fun emergent gameplay.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-02-13 19:45:22 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place


Why would that be necessary?


Because the issue is free intel. Jump metrics on the map are intel that we use when selecting null sec systems to harass. The lack of this information in w-space is one of the things that makes W-space much more engaging, at least to me.

There is another piece of intel available on the map and via API that we use, which is the number of NPC kills. This is available for w-space which is why you don't see that many PVE guys in w-space these days.

Here's how:

We scan down a chain of WHs and collect the J-numbers. Then we sit nice and safe in a POS casually glancing at wormnav or similar now and again. When we see NPC kills rising in a w-space system we know someone is in there in a nice expensive ship killing rats.

Then we mobilise a small fleet and return with some loot and a few corpses.

Such as this: http://www.toha-conglomerate.org/killboard/index.php/kill_related/6296/

These guys were unusual in that they didn't drop faction modules, but they did kindly leave us 400m in sleeper loot.


That's great for you, but so what? Eliminating one form of free intel is not a reason to eliminate another, entirely separate form of intel used for a completely different purpose. Jumps per hour/24 hours is sufficiently broad and anonymous that I don't see any connection to this topic about local, aside from the overly broad concept that all free intel is bad, which is a stretch at best.

Scanning down a long chain and then just waiting for dotlan to light up is pretty devious, however.


Wormholes used to emit jumps per hour information, but CCP stopped it a few years ago. I imagine precisely because the intel was so useful to hunters and a complete liability to the hunted.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#11 - 2014-02-13 19:58:44 UTC
I can imagine that being the case for whs, where a single jump could be significant, or allow you to identify the chain someone is using to transport stuff. But in no way do i see that being the case with a local-restricted k-space. I just don't think the comparison is relevant.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#12 - 2014-02-13 21:10:59 UTC
Batelle wrote:
I can imagine that being the case for whs, where a single jump could be significant, or allow you to identify the chain someone is using to transport stuff. But in no way do i see that being the case with a local-restricted k-space. I just don't think the comparison is relevant.



It isn't relevant. What is relevant is showing up in local as immediate intel. The map (aside from cynos) has a 15 minute delay in data and isn't instant data that is specific to who and what is in system. Local chat is overpowered as it stands. I have no problem with people being able to upgrade space in null sec to get active intel/local chat but for free I don't think so. The map data is more statistical and not OP in any way.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#13 - 2014-02-13 21:58:10 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
I know they could make a deployable that blocks local chat! Because deployables are fun emergent gameplay.

This would be popular with PvE.

Know a hostile is in the area?
Plop these down for every system in an area, and let them scan and search every empty system they have between them and you.

Like laying down smoke, they don't know where to look, while you can watch key entry points and know when to react well in advance.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2014-02-13 22:08:54 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place.

I would be much happier to remove local if some of the statistics gained from the star map were removed. It seems silly to me that some statistics are available to everyone in eve that shouldn't be.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#15 - 2014-02-13 22:12:44 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place.

I would be much happier to remove local if some of the statistics gained from the star map were removed. It seems silly to me that some statistics are available to everyone in eve that shouldn't be.



you're conflating issues. Statistical data isn't updated live except for cynos.
Bobsled Nutcase Motsu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-02-13 22:17:13 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place.

I would be much happier to remove local if some of the statistics gained from the star map were removed. It seems silly to me that some statistics are available to everyone in eve that shouldn't be.



you're conflating issues. Statistical data isn't updated live except for cynos.

Makes it sound like another intel handout, designed to put a dive flag over the heads of anyone active in a system more than an hour or so....
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2014-02-13 22:17:22 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
You'd also have to remove jump metrics from the map when the local IFF modules are not in place.

I would be much happier to remove local if some of the statistics gained from the star map were removed. It seems silly to me that some statistics are available to everyone in eve that shouldn't be.



you're conflating issues. Statistical data isn't updated live except for cynos.

The point isn't how often its updated, it's how you get it. I could be in branch collecting intel on systems in catch, without moving a single ship, activating a single scan or doing anything else noteworthy of effort involved. Maybe there should be a way to collect this intel yourself if you actually visit the system. It's the same with local. I know of a pilots arrival without having to do anything.

Having this intel usually leads to pilots choosing a system to hunt in, who then use local as a smaller scale tool. they kind of go hand in hand.
Bobsled Nutcase Motsu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-02-13 22:23:36 UTC
Rowells wrote:
The point isn't how often its updated, it's how you get it. I could be in branch collecting intel on systems in catch, without moving a single ship, activating a single scan or doing anything else noteworthy of effort involved. Maybe there should be a way to collect this intel yourself if you actually visit the system. It's the same with local. I know of a pilots arrival without having to do anything.

Having this intel usually leads to pilots choosing a system to hunt in, who then use local as a smaller scale tool. they kind of go hand in hand.

Wait, you mean we can gather intel without using local or these handouts that do it all for us?

But, that would take effort, and someone else might do it better than me, what kind of game... ooooo I get it... we're playing a GAME!
Sometimes it is easy to forget this is not a MOBA.... the way everything but that command to start firing is pretty much done for you...
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2014-02-13 22:33:04 UTC
Bobsled Nutcase Motsu wrote:
Rowells wrote:
The point isn't how often its updated, it's how you get it. I could be in branch collecting intel on systems in catch, without moving a single ship, activating a single scan or doing anything else noteworthy of effort involved. Maybe there should be a way to collect this intel yourself if you actually visit the system. It's the same with local. I know of a pilots arrival without having to do anything.

Having this intel usually leads to pilots choosing a system to hunt in, who then use local as a smaller scale tool. they kind of go hand in hand.

Wait, you mean we can gather intel without using local or these handouts that do it all for us?

But, that would take effort, and someone else might do it better than me, what kind of game... ooooo I get it... we're playing a GAME!
Sometimes it is easy to forget this is not a MOBA.... the way everything but that command to start firing is pretty much done for you...

I have always fantasized the idea of me in my cheetah silently dropping scout drones and beacons skulking around a contellation collecting information and reporting to my highers. Sounds a lot more fun then checking a map doesn't it? Could bring out a whole new requirement for fleet actions.

And honestly, If you had to work for it, i'd be willing to allow even more intel that isnt even currently available now (number of ships and type logged out in system, scan a station to see who's docked, hack an FC's fleet comms and see some of it's composition, etc.)
Crasniya
The Aussienauts
#20 - 2014-02-13 22:51:46 UTC
W-space players are butthurt they don't get things null gets?

One of the most engaging aspects of the different regions of gameplay to me, is that they have unique properties. W-space mechanics work for W-space. Enough said.

I have some intel ideas of my own, but it involves different flavors of things than just manipulating who shows up in the local chat.

Soraya Xel - Council of Planetary Management 1 - soraya@biomassed.net
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