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Dev Blog: Alliance Logos & You - Clarification on submissions

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Author
CCP Falcon
#1 - 2014-02-13 16:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Good afternoon capsuleers :3

Recently a number of members of the community have had issues with their alliance branded merchandise being removed from third party vendor websites.

After a long discussion with our legal department, a Dev Blog has been put together to explain the situation with alliance logo copyright ownership, and to make sure that the process surrounding it is perfectly clear.

We've also drafted a license to allow free usage of alliance logos, that can be used as backup should you run into any issues with third party sites removing your goods from sale.

For full details, please see this Dev Blog.

If there are any questions, please feel free to pose them in this thread.

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Mag's
Azn Empire
#2 - 2014-02-13 16:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
It's a difficult situation for sure. I hope that most can live with the system you've arrived at, because you're not giving them much of a choice.

Just a thought. What happens if the logo already has a copyright? Does this mean you cannot accept it, or must remove it?

Also, first.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Uma D
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-02-13 16:40:56 UTC
Just out of curiousity, since i am not a lawyer and only know how thing are around here.

The german law clearely states that ownership of intellectual property is not transferable, the only thing that is transferable is the "right to use" MY intellectual property. Even if i grant someone the "right to use", i still am the owner of said intellectual property and as long as i do not sign a contract granting someone the exlcusive rights to use, i can use any of my own creations for whatever purpose i please to use it.

So claiming ownership of my intellectual property would pretty much be against german law, and as a german citizen i guess german law applies to me.

So how is it legal for ccp to claim owenership of something i created and can not transfer the ownership of?
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
#4 - 2014-02-13 16:48:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Uma D wrote:
Just out of curiousity, since i am not a lawyer and only know how thing are around here.

The german law clearely states that ownership of intellectual property is not transferable, the only thing that is transferable is the "right to use" MY intellectual property. Even if i grant someone the "right to use", i still am the owner of said intellectual property and as long as i do not sign a contract granting someone the exlcusive rights to use, i can use any of my own creations for whatever purpose i please to use it.

So claiming ownership of my intellectual property would pretty much be against german law, and as a german citizen i guess german law applies to me.

So how is it legal for ccp to claim owenership of something i created and can not transfer the ownership of?


I was wondering the same.. but I think the following clause takes care of that (in our favor?):
Quote:
7.1. Force Majeure.
If either party should fail in the performance of any obligation under this Agreement, by reason of acts of God, strikes, lockouts, labor troubles, inability to procure materials, restrictive government laws, or regulations or other cause, without fault and beyond the reasonable control of the party obligated (financial inability excepted), that party shall be granted an extension to perform its obligations hereunder equal to the time the underlying cause prevented performance. Should any obligations of the other party be dependent upon this party’s performance, such obligations shall be similarly extended.


Note that I don't realls speak legalese either and reading most of that paragraph just hurts mentally.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#5 - 2014-02-13 16:51:54 UTC
Boo! Still no way for me to get an alliance logo for my vanity alliance Blink

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

iwannadig
Doomheim
#6 - 2014-02-13 17:06:06 UTC
Yeah, similar question: if I already have my IP over my corp/alliance name and want to create such a corp/alliance in Eve, does it mean I violate EULA? What happens if someone already registered such name and has IP rights clash?
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
#7 - 2014-02-13 17:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
iwannadig wrote:
Yeah, similar question: if I already have my IP over my corp/alliance name and want to create such a corp/alliance in Eve, does it mean I violate EULA? What happens if someone already registered such name and has IP rights clash?


Does that answer your question?
Review and Acceptance Process wrote:
Review for Copyrighted material (because the Alliance logo will be owned by CCP, we have to ensure that it does not infringe anyone else’s copyright or trademark)


Of course that doesn't answer what happens if an IP clash is only noticed after the fact...
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#8 - 2014-02-13 17:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Devblog made me laugh.

I like the part where CCP in its Great Kindness will not terminate the agreement before 90days notice, but can at its sole discretion declare the agreement violated and thus void as soon as they send a written notice.
I see what you did there CCP Bear

So, TL;DR of this Devblog, cool now we can buy and make goodies but only to the point where it covers the alliance's expenses, not more. (Is the term "alliance" even worth anything law-wise?)

But CCP still wants its share of the cake and still wants to have full and exclusive ownership of the logo for everything. Even if they don't make the logo themselves. Lol

You know that even Facebook has a special license that allows them to use uploaded content at will without taking the Intellectual Property away from its legitimate owner, right?

This behaviour is disgusting. Luckily alliance logo stuff is out of my hands, but you're giving a very bad example here.

Sephira Galamore wrote:

Of course that doesn't answer what happens if an IP clash is only noticed after the fact...


Oh it does! If a clash is noticed after the fact and you are sued, CCP and its employees cannot be hold responsible.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Ortho Loess
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#9 - 2014-02-13 17:35:13 UTC
Reading the license, I was very impressed by how restrictive they have managed to make it and how much it is set up to be almost entirely in CCP's favour.

If I make a load of T-Shirts or mouse mats to hand out at a meetup, then CCP decide I've annoyed them, they can demand that I destroy them all and send them proof I have done so within 5 days.

Anyone thinking of submitting an alliance logo absolutely needs to make one and put it somewhere where the date can be verified, then change the colour of a pixel and submit the new version to CCP. That way they don't need this noxious license, CCP owns their version, you still own your version.

If the CCP team wanted to really be helpful, this would be the advice given on the logo submission page.

The Volition Cult are fairly lucky, it remains clear that our logo (as we use it on t-shirts and the like) is not the property of CCP. They have a version of it that we can persuade the copyright holder to grant them ownership of.

For reference, this was originally discussed here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=321296

CCP Falcon locked the topic to focus on this one and asked us to continue here.
CCP Falcon
#10 - 2014-02-13 17:37:22 UTC
Keep the questions coming guys, if you have them.

I'll wait until tomorrow, then get a pile of them together to deliver to our legal team, then we can get some answers Smile

CCP Falcon || EVE Universe Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon

Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3

Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-02-13 17:45:16 UTC
BRB. Going to go make Candy Crush Saga Alliance.
Ortho Loess
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#12 - 2014-02-13 17:53:40 UTC
Quote:
CCP’s ownership of everything used in the game client is necessary under current intellectual property law

Could you expand on this?

The argument for pursuing a policy that is so clearly against the interests of your users seems to hinge on this point, but it's not explained why you need to own the logos.
Domino Artan
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2014-02-13 17:54:34 UTC
Is there a reason that usage is limited to '[...] THE MANUFACTURE AND DISTRIBUTION OF CLOTHING, HOUSEWARES, AND OTHER CONSUMER ITEMS DISPLAYING THE LICENSED PROPERTY [..]'

If the Alliance wanted to make any media using this logo, for example a cartoon accessible via. a fee system on youtube would they be allowed to under this agreement?
Sand Shardani
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2014-02-13 17:59:02 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
BRB. Going to go make Candy Crush Saga Alliance.


Actually, I think anything with Candy in the name is copyrighted by that company. Which is very dumb.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-02-13 18:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagehi
Ortho Loess wrote:
Quote:
CCP’s ownership of everything used in the game client is necessary under current intellectual property law

Could you expand on this?

The argument for pursuing a policy that is so clearly against the interests of your users seems to hinge on this point, but it's not explained why you need to own the logos.

This is IP law. CCP can't use a copyrighted name/image in a product/service they sell to customers. This isn't true in some case (eg parody, news reporting, etc) but it wouldn't stop CCP getting dragged into court proceedings because some genius makes a "Ford Sucks" alliance or something along those lines. Basically not even touching copyrighted material at all means much less legal costs for CCP, even if they are in the right.

Why CCP claims copyright on alliance logos is so that I can't create a logo, upload it to Eve Online, later change my mind and send a cease and desist to CCP to remove all traces of my copyrighted material from their game. Imagine me claiming I own the rights to GSF's logo, as another example. Even if I didn't make it, it would still kick in the legal proceedings and costs associated with that. Knowing some of the insane drama that happens in Eve, that has either already happened or would most definitely happen. So, again, legal costs for dumb stuff sucks.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-02-13 18:00:59 UTC
Sand Shardani wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
BRB. Going to go make Candy Crush Saga Alliance.


Actually, I think anything with Candy in the name is copyrighted by that company. Which is very dumb.

They are in the midst of court proceedings over their attempt to copyright Candy and Saga, yeah. That was the joke.
Ortho Loess
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#17 - 2014-02-13 18:02:59 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
This is IP law. CCP can't use a copyrighted name/image in a product/service they sell to customers. This isn't true in some case (eg parody, news reporting, etc) but it wouldn't stop CCP getting dragged into court proceedings because some genius makes a "Ford Sucks" alliance or something along those lines. Basically not even touching copyrighted material at all means much less legal costs for CCP, even if they are in the right.

That works for needing a license to use it, it does not explain why they need complete ownership or even an exclusive license.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#18 - 2014-02-13 18:04:39 UTC
Ortho Loess wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
This is IP law. CCP can't use a copyrighted name/image in a product/service they sell to customers. This isn't true in some case (eg parody, news reporting, etc) but it wouldn't stop CCP getting dragged into court proceedings because some genius makes a "Ford Sucks" alliance or something along those lines. Basically not even touching copyrighted material at all means much less legal costs for CCP, even if they are in the right.

That works for needing a license to use it, it does not explain why they need complete ownership or even an exclusive license.

Sorry, updated my post with an explanation answering that question.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#19 - 2014-02-13 18:07:27 UTC
Ortho Loess wrote:
Bagehi wrote:
This is IP law. CCP can't use a copyrighted name/image in a product/service they sell to customers. This isn't true in some case (eg parody, news reporting, etc) but it wouldn't stop CCP getting dragged into court proceedings because some genius makes a "Ford Sucks" alliance or something along those lines. Basically not even touching copyrighted material at all means much less legal costs for CCP, even if they are in the right.

That works for needing a license to use it, it does not explain why they need complete ownership or even an exclusive license.


It's the easiest way to CYA. It's not uncommon for web forums to do this as well.

It also protects CCP from the derivative works problem, where someone creates original content that ties in to, or otherwise depends on, CCP's original content. If CCP didn't assert copyright then they wouldn't control the original content, but neither would the person who created it, and as some authors have found out, that can create really sticky problems down the road.

It's not the only way to proceed, but it's the easiest for CCP, or for whichever party is hosting a community hub or shared world of whatever kind.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Uma D
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2014-02-13 18:10:24 UTC
Bagehi wrote:
Ortho Loess wrote:
Quote:
CCP’s ownership of everything used in the game client is necessary under current intellectual property law

Could you expand on this?

The argument for pursuing a policy that is so clearly against the interests of your users seems to hinge on this point, but it's not explained why you need to own the logos.

This is IP law. CCP can't use a copyrighted name/image in a product/service they sell to customers. This isn't true in some case (eg parody, news reporting, etc) but it wouldn't stop CCP getting dragged into court proceedings because some genius makes a "Ford Sucks" alliance or something along those lines. Basically not even touching copyrighted material at all means much less legal costs for CCP, even if they are in the right.


Still they do not need the ownership of IP. All they need is the usage rights. And since i need to be the owner of any IP i send to ccp anyway I can give ccp the right to use it and that is what the EULA also should reflect.

As long as i do not reference eve in anything i create I do not see why i should need a license to sell something i own. No matter if I sent it to ccp and allow them to use it for anything related to eve. I agree that they can use any material i create and submit to them... not the other way around.

Sorry but this whole devblog smells really fishy.
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