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Discussion - The Fall of Battlecruisers ?

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2014-02-09 09:52:00 UTC
Aralieus wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yeah, fck those ppl who don't have cruiser and HAC 5, maxed out fitting and nav skills. Round them all up and kill them while running gang links and RR.


This is already being done m8...and its the exact reason why if you're going to PvP you should take it somewhat seriously and train the appropriate skills to do so. Leave out the links tho, I honestly hope they get nerfed into the ground.



The oinly nerf links need is beign forced in grid. most peopel that complain never flew a Commadnship with links and are unaware that you cannot bring more than 3 links whiel fielding a tank and prop mods.


THat will balance them compeltely. Just brign them to where they must be defended.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#122 - 2014-02-09 10:17:55 UTC
I can't see CCP revisiting BC until after strategic cruisers and faction ships.
Denson022
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2014-02-09 18:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Denson022
Fellas,

Please let's stay polite.

Back on topic:

- The warp speed nerf is indeed hurting much, Command ships have a warp Top @ 2.75 AU, BC @2.5
Maybe then moving CS @ Warp 3 and BC @2.75 would be a better balancing move?
BC cant warp chase cruisers but can get on a KM on time...

- I agree with the general consensus that a cruiser meeting a BC can GTFO at any time and avoid the fight, the problem some people spotted is that BC cant push off a kiting cruiser like a caracal.
ABC have the damage projection but then are vulnerable to any cruiser that manages to get under his guns - i'm fine with that since ABC are faster tha CBC

- The Command Link Capability of CBC is (almost) never used.
* Making it a rig is an idea.
* Get rid of it and leave Boosting to T2CS/ T3 and replace it with what?

The Claymore is a missile boat like the cyclone and use the same hull, if CBC get rid of link Role Bonus, then for example why not give the cyclone a Missile explosion velocity as a replacement of the Role Bonus? The typhoon BS already has the same bonus and it would be a logical line for Minamatar-missile based pilots.

Since TE has been nerfed, the Cane could get a Fallof (or Optimal) bonus, to slightly surpass the dmg prjection compared to a Rupture for example, giving it and edge without making it OP thus more sexy to use.

I won't talk about other factions as my knowledge of them is limited.



For the comparison Frig - > Dessie and Cruiser-> BC ... the Thrasher can put over 300DPS wich is on a Cruiser level.
ABC act in the same style but use weapons one class higher
CBC on the other hand have slighly more DPS and usually twice the EHP of a cruiser, they are mean to brawl / outlast the enemy... and as many of you pointed out that this job is done better by NavyCruisers.

The speed of the cruisers and thus the ability to evade a CBC has been pointed as a problem too. Let me resume, let's leave the agility of cruisers as they are but the margin of the top speed could be tuned down to make kiting more pilot / exp dependant as it is now (?)
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#124 - 2014-02-09 20:22:36 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Aralieus wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
Yeah, fck those ppl who don't have cruiser and HAC 5, maxed out fitting and nav skills. Round them all up and kill them while running gang links and RR.


This is already being done m8...and its the exact reason why if you're going to PvP you should take it somewhat seriously and train the appropriate skills to do so. Leave out the links tho, I honestly hope they get nerfed into the ground.



The oinly nerf links need is beign forced in grid. most peopel that complain never flew a Commadnship with links and are unaware that you cannot bring more than 3 links whiel fielding a tank and prop mods.


THat will balance them compeltely. Just brign them to where they must be defended.


That's exactly what I was talking about. They have somewhat fixed the bonus of links now the mechanics in which they are applied seriously needs adjusting. I can field an abso/damn with Command Ships V and links with mindlink implants so I know how useful they can be when fighting against the odds. I also know how ridiculously op they can be as well. But I digress, as far as BC's go I have always been a huge fan of the harb. It was usually my go to ship for most engagements however under the current meta and tweaking done by CCP it is outshined in almost every way except raw ehp by the navy omen. It would be nice if they had some more mobility and range, not a lot but some.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#125 - 2014-02-10 05:10:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tul Breetai
Denson022 wrote:
Fellas,

Please let's stay polite.

Back on topic:

- The warp speed nerf is indeed hurting much, Command ships have a warp Top @ 2.75 AU, BC @2.5
Maybe then moving CS @ Warp 3 and BC @2.75 would be a better balancing move?
BC cant warp chase cruisers but can get on a KM on time...

- I agree with the general consensus that a cruiser meeting a BC can GTFO at any time and avoid the fight, the problem some people spotted is that BC cant push off a kiting cruiser like a caracal.
ABC have the damage projection but then are vulnerable to any cruiser that manages to get under his guns - i'm fine with that since ABC are faster tha CBC

- The Command Link Capability of CBC is (almost) never used.
* Making it a rig is an idea.
* Get rid of it and leave Boosting to T2CS/ T3 and replace it with what?

The Claymore is a missile boat like the cyclone and use the same hull, if CBC get rid of link Role Bonus, then for example why not give the cyclone a Missile explosion velocity as a replacement of the Role Bonus? The typhoon BS already has the same bonus and it would be a logical line for Minamatar-missile based pilots.

Since TE has been nerfed, the Cane could get a Fallof (or Optimal) bonus, to slightly surpass the dmg prjection compared to a Rupture for example, giving it and edge without making it OP thus more sexy to use.

I won't talk about other factions as my knowledge of them is limited.

I only ever use CBCs for training noobs, because *surprise* putting noobs in suicide tackle frigs means they don't live long enough to learn anything; and for holding a position, like a gate or wormhole. The extra ehp is hardly necessary when running logi, maybe less blappable, and considering the larger sig it's nothing special.

Why not replace the link bonus with a projection bonus to counterbalance the lower speed and agility? I mean, you said that, and I agree completely. It fixes many of the issues without stepping on toes or making CBCs OP.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#126 - 2014-02-10 19:50:58 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
BC are right in between Cruiser and BS, HP, speed, firepower. Just like they should be. BC are FINE
That doesn't mean they're fine. They're not even BCs in my opinion. They're just really slow cruisers.


double or triple the EHP, 30-50% more fire power, about twice the cap, 50-70% of the speed. They're fine but rather than a hard counter to something they're more or less decently ok everywhere. That might make it difficult to fit it into s specific scenario or counter but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with them, all that means is that since fleets and blobs (generally) don't want versatility they don't perform there. Which is fine.


Yep check out the navy harb.

fit it with heavy beams...gleam ammo...a shield buffer tank and it will do 1400m/sec and dish out 940ish dps with heat. The thing is blazing awesome at near talos dps with a 60K ehp tank. Its a powerhouse. Yeah sure with a 1600 plate its slow but who cares...its got 5 mids and if you're too dumb to use that then you are just too dumb.

The deimos can push 960ish dps with 3x mag stabs but it has 0 tank. The navy harb can do it with *beams* not pulse and can immediately switch from 10-15K effective range to 50+km with aurora.

my lord! BC's are in great shape...but again we've gotten to a point that say...an ishtar can kite most of them and apply similar dps with sentries. The rail deimos can do something similar and have a nice burst tank. The normal omen and maller should still get crapped on by most BC's in a 1v1 situation but to get to better fleet use...train up for a command ship and really spit out the dps.

Fully skilled HAM nighthawk will kick out over 1K dps with just t2 fittings and a fairly massive tank. Its like having a box of **** and being able to open it whenever you want.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2014-02-12 10:43:45 UTC
Is not the real problem interceptors?

Because since CCP they had their "rebalance" not only will you rarely see battlecruisers, you'll also rarely see cruisers, destroyers, battleships or frigates any more.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#128 - 2014-02-12 21:51:05 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Is not the real problem interceptors?

Because since CCP they had their "rebalance" not only will you rarely see battlecruisers, you'll also rarely see cruisers, destroyers, battleships or frigates any more.


This is not true in most areas of EvE. Inties are known for roaming gangs, but outside of that niche most ship classes are very common.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#129 - 2014-02-12 22:06:28 UTC

I see a lot of consensus that people would appreciate CBC's getting:

Improved warp speed, perhaps to cruiser level or more.
Improved combat range. If they are slow, give them some damage projection to fend off kiting ships.
Command Processor Rigs, so they can utilize Warfare links without being significantly gimped.


Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2014-02-13 11:20:56 UTC
I keep coming back to the simple BC definition that one should outrun that which it can't outgun (cruisers etc) and outrun that which it can't outgun (BS and upwards). BC's were always designed (in RL terms) to fight by dictating range (they had BS size guns) and I feel the same definition would apply here.

I would like to see:

* A speed boost, either baseline speed or role bonuses on AB/MWD
* A range boost rather than damage boost (a cruiser should not be able to kite without expecting to be hit in return)

I like the idea of BC's acting as command ships-of-the-line but it sounds like they are rarely used this way, A BC should add some real power to a fleet of cruisers whilst being able to more or less keep up with them.
Gauro Charante
Vile Duck Pond
#131 - 2014-02-13 12:55:09 UTC
Why not add to the skill a +1% effectivness to links, as a general bonus. Thus giving you the option to put whatever link you want (even if it's a shieldbonus to an armor fleet), with a little extra bonus. Only the CBC should have it not ABC. 1% should not step on the toes of tech3 ships nor the the more specific Command ships with 2% and 3% resp..
Bump up the cap on BC and you'll have more staying power than cruisers.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-02-13 13:29:52 UTC
I like that idea, I think that in general CBC's are fine, but need small buffs to fulfil the role they are supposed to. The bonuses above would help along with speed buffs. Whilst CBC shouldn't be a go-to ship as it was from others descriptions it certainly should be a go-to ship as basic cruiser fleet support.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#133 - 2014-02-13 14:09:33 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
I keep coming back to the simple BC definition that one should outrun that which it can't outgun (cruisers etc) and outrun that which it can't outgun (BS and upwards). BC's were always designed (in RL terms) to fight by dictating range (they had BS size guns) and I feel the same definition would apply here.

I would like to see:

* A speed boost, either baseline speed or role bonuses on AB/MWD
* A range boost rather than damage boost (a cruiser should not be able to kite without expecting to be hit in return)

I like the idea of BC's acting as command ships-of-the-line but it sounds like they are rarely used this way, A BC should add some real power to a fleet of cruisers whilst being able to more or less keep up with them.


Increasing the speed of cruisers and then increasing the speed of BC's would be really ******* dumb.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#134 - 2014-02-13 14:13:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Whilst CBC shouldn't be a go-to ship as it was from others descriptions it certainly should be a go-to ship as basic cruiser fleet support.


That's the problem and point I've been making throughout this thread, it doesn't work that way. If you make it good people will fly them and only them because they'll "pwn cruisers lol", if you make them partially good it doesn't change anything. The choices CCP made in regards to balancing was to leave the ships as is (with small changes) but purposely nerf its "active pvp" option, because if you don't it'll completely nuke cruiser hulls again. Making them more powerful with dumb ideas like giving them a range bonus I'm not even going to discuss.

It's a simple choice; do you want 2-3 BC hulls to dominate again or do you want all the different cruiser hulls, with their diversity and cool ships to be used? Stop wanting to go back to CBC being good, it wasn't good for diversity and frankly it was boring as hell. Embrace the influx of cruiser hulls in all their glory and diversity, accept that it means CBC lost their former shine.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2014-02-13 14:42:18 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:


It's a simple choice; do you want 2-3 BC hulls to dominate again or do you want all the different cruiser hulls, with their diversity and cool ships to be used? Stop wanting to go back to CBC being good, it wasn't good for diversity and frankly it was boring as hell. Embrace the influx of cruiser hulls in all their glory and diversity, accept that it means CBC lost their former shine.


I never saw the CBC former shine, I'm still relatively new here. I do love the Myrm though, just get irritated that it is so slooooooow...

The point I'm making is that the CBC no longer seems to fulfill the role it is intended to (or any role judging by most peoples views here).. The CBC (in my opinion of course) in fleet should be the anchor for its cruiser cousins, providing boosts and fire support. As it is it seems relatively easy to have cruisers outgun CBC's which is just wrong.

I'm not saying CBC should be first choice as it used to be, but rather that it should be first choice for fleet support in cruiser gangs.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#136 - 2014-02-13 15:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Gregor Parud
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:


It's a simple choice; do you want 2-3 BC hulls to dominate again or do you want all the different cruiser hulls, with their diversity and cool ships to be used? Stop wanting to go back to CBC being good, it wasn't good for diversity and frankly it was boring as hell. Embrace the influx of cruiser hulls in all their glory and diversity, accept that it means CBC lost their former shine.


I never saw the CBC former shine, I'm still relatively new here. I do love the Myrm though, just get irritated that it is so slooooooow...

The point I'm making is that the CBC no longer seems to fulfill the role it is intended to (or any role judging by most peoples views here).. The CBC (in my opinion of course) in fleet should be the anchor for its cruiser cousins, providing boosts and fire support. As it is it seems relatively easy to have cruisers outgun CBC's which is just wrong.

I'm not saying CBC should be first choice as it used to be, but rather that it should be first choice for fleet support in cruiser gangs.


The issue is that people long back to how silly OP they were, you saw Canes and Drakes everywhere and it was pretty much the only thing you'd see (not counting T2/T3/pirate). So CCP decided to stop them being OP and now ppl go "waaah, where's my OP ship" and "what other bonuses could we give them to make them OP again".

The whole notion of providing boosts is pretty much null atm due to the fact that off grid boosts work, so ppl will use a T3 or CS,sitting at some safe spot, for links. Until that is fixed and links are forced on grid there is no valid reason to bring a "gimped" CBC (mind you, it's not gimped in dps or tank, it's JUST gimped in mobility, on purpose). When it is fixed then we might see people make the conscious choice to bring links ion the form of a CBC but that only really will happen for throwaway suicide roams, low SP players and perhaps pvpers who made the choice of not liking links like that, which is fine.

Right now, CBC have no use outside PVE and "basic PVP". Short term that results in people whining and raging, similar to how ppl raged when nanos were nerfed, HML, AOE DD etc etc etc. It's just people whining, long term it means more diversity in ship classes. Simply accept their changed role and laugh at the clowns who want their OPness back and come up with these amazing "balance ideas" which would be hilariously unbalanced.