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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Reactive Armor Hardener Cap Scaling (Paper Cut 1001)

First post
Author
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#21 - 2014-02-13 10:10:33 UTC
maybe it would even be nice to make a passive version of it, one that uses no cap but has a smaller effect in resistance shifting

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Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#22 - 2014-02-13 10:41:22 UTC
+1

This is a huge issue, especially if you are fitting Reactive Armor Hardners on frigates. I use them occasionally on frigates and I do not train the skill for this reason. Once you trained it up then you simply can't use effectively this module on frigates any more.
Jaro Essa
Dahkur Forge
#23 - 2014-02-13 11:37:47 UTC
The proposed change would be a ridiculously strong buff to the RAH. Matching the 10% cycle reduction with a 10% cap reduction would mean the skill delivers pure benefit with no downside. While there are a number of other 'no downside' skills in the game, they typically max out at 5% benefit per level, with many offering lower percentages (eg. 3% per level for Surgical Strike, or 2% for your T2 turret skills). If CCP were to alter this skill into a no downside version, I doubt they would stick with the 10% cycle reduction, they'd likely cut it to 5% and keep the cap reduction to 5%.

But I don't think CCP will do that, because the RAH is already well-adapted to its niche: trading cap and armour buffer for fitting flexibility (eg. replacing a second set of active hardeners, and thus freeing up a low slot for more damage mods, or balancing out an omni tank with just a single module, etc).

As it stands, the skill enables pilots to simply shift the balance of tradeoffs - a RAH that moves to the optimal distribution of resists twice as fast consumes less armour buffer to get to that point, at the cost of increased cap consumption. So maybe you can fit one fewer Trimark and fit a damage rig instead, etc, or keep a big buffer and spend less cap on your Armor Repairer.

Granted, it is a little unusual that you can't really go back on the choice once you've made it, but I don't know that a huge buff is the solution (the module could probably do with a buff anyway, but that's a separate discussion). A better approach might be to eliminate the bonuses currently attached to the skill - or reduce them from 10%/5% to, say, 2%/1% - and introduce a T2 variant that unlocks at Armor Resistance Phasing V, that exhibits the same stats you see today on the RAH with that skill at V. This would resolve the choice issue without having such an impact on balance.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-02-13 11:46:29 UTC
Maybe give the RAH a cap penalty at installation (like mining laser upgrades reduce overall CPU available) and then make it only consume cap whilst cycling to shift the armour resists. Once resists are at a point you like you deactivate the mod which then maniatins them until you shift it again to counter a new threat.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#25 - 2014-02-13 12:12:18 UTC
I'd also like to max a skill without said skill penalizing me for doing so. I shouldn't be less able to run a mod having a skill to V as compared to keeping it at 1 (I got it at one to strap it to cruisers <.<)
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#26 - 2014-02-13 13:17:08 UTC
+1

It's pretty mental that it works like this.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2014-02-13 13:21:38 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
I'd also like to max a skill without said skill penalizing me for doing so. I shouldn't be less able to run a mod having a skill to V as compared to keeping it at 1 (I got it at one to strap it to cruisers <.<)


Agreed and this ties with my proposition The skill would then shorten then cycle time to either get you to max resists faster (at the same cap cost but in less time) or you could pulse the module to manage your cap.
Seliah
Blades of Liberty
#28 - 2014-02-13 13:37:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Seliah
Jaro Essa wrote:
The proposed change would be a ridiculously strong buff to the RAH.


Agreed on that point, but the values could be lowered a bit if necessary.

Jaro Essa wrote:

Matching the 10% cycle reduction with a 10% cap reduction would mean the skill delivers pure benefit with no downside. While there are a number of other 'no downside' skills in the game, they typically max out at 5% benefit per level, with many offering lower percentages


I strongly disagree. You're talking about a "number of no-downside skills in the game", but in my opinion that's like 99% of the skills. Skills with a downside are a very rare exception, and that's the way it should be. As people said, you want to be able to max your skill to specialize yourself in something. A skill isn't some sort of slider you can adjust to chose between, in this case, more capacitor stability or more efficient resistance phasing.

Jaro Essa wrote:

A better approach might be to eliminate the bonuses currently attached to the skill - or reduce them from 10%/5% to, say, 2%/1% - and introduce a T2 variant that unlocks at Armor Resistance Phasing V, that exhibits the same stats you see today on the RAH with that skill at V. This would resolve the choice issue without having such an impact on balance.


I like this idea. While finding a solution to remove the downside from maxing the skill is good, adding a cap usage reduction bonus on top of the cycle reduction bonus sounds a bit odd. Your solution would make specializing in RAHs by maxing the skill a completely valid tactic, in line with most of the T1 - T2 relationships of other modules, where T2 is always more efficient at an extra capacitor cost.
Thirtythousand
#29 - 2014-02-13 13:42:30 UTC
+1
love the proposition of keeping the cap use the same! love the module as it has replaced many an EANM on my bc/bs fits. if resists persisted when the module was off, that would be great.

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JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#30 - 2014-02-13 14:11:07 UTC
Does any body know if the increased cap usage aspect of training this skill up was intentional or accidental. The repair systems skill also increase cap usage as well as you train it up. This leads me to believe that increased cap usage was an intentional game design for providing the faster speeds for both these skills. Just a thought.
Seliah
Blades of Liberty
#31 - 2014-02-13 14:17:04 UTC
JetStream Drenard wrote:
The repair systems skill also increase cap usage as well as you train it up.


Yes, it's also the case with the Gunnery skill, increasing your RoF, meaning your guns use more cap. The main difference though is that both guns and repairers come in different sizes so the capacitor consumption scales with the size of the ship. That's not the case for the RAH, meaning the impact of the skill is much stronger on a frigate than a battleship.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#32 - 2014-02-13 14:26:40 UTC
I agree with this suggestion but don't expect anything to change. Its just a value in their ship stats, there is litterally nothing to code. If they wanted it to change they'd have done that already.

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JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#33 - 2014-02-13 14:28:42 UTC
Seliah wrote:
JetStream Drenard wrote:
The repair systems skill also increase cap usage as well as you train it up.


Yes, it's also the case with the Gunnery skill, increasing your RoF, meaning your guns use more cap. The main difference though is that both guns and repairers come in different sizes so the capacitor consumption scales with the size of the ship. That's not the case for the RAH, meaning the impact of the skill is much stronger on a frigate than a battleship.

That is why I never put them on frigates. Just like EANM and active resists modules, they are none of them friendly with frigates because of their large CPU needs. There are plenty of other defense modules and weapon upgrade modules that do not scale, making them very tough to fit to frigates. That is one of the reasons why frigates are not a noob friendly ship, I see them as much more of an advanced player ship.
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-02-13 18:04:08 UTC
Altrue wrote:
I agree with this suggestion but don't expect anything to change. Its just a value in their ship stats, there is litterally nothing to code. If they wanted it to change they'd have done that already.



I disagree with this mentality in that the Reactive Armor Hardener is probably seeing only slightly more use than the Target Spectrum Breaker right now. The "nothing to code" would be a slight change in the cost of the capacitor of the module, or adding in additional levels of the module for frigate/cruiser to reduce the overall cap consumption and make them viable to use.

As it stands, armor tanking isn't really viable for frigates (period) and the Reactive Armor Hardener goes the way of active hardeners in that it's not worth it to use on a T1/T2 Cruiser either due to the cap cost. I could see an argument being made for the RAH being the sole hardener on an armor cruiser, due to the immense power of shifting your resistances. I just think it's not a strong enough argument to preclude a discussion about the cap cost on the RAH being a bit too high. Especially because we're limited to 1 on the ship, and the only other mods in the game we're limited to 1 per ship are the damage control and a probe launcher (1 GJ and 0 GJ to activate) and a handful of the new prototype inferno mods (Ancillary armor is made in small medium and large and matches efficiency for cap to the Armor line).

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Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.

Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#35 - 2014-02-13 18:19:40 UTC
RAH works fine on cruisers, especially AHACs like the Sacrilege and Deimos where cap isn't really an issue. But I agree that having small, medium ,and large versions, or at least a micro-RAH for frigates, would be very beneficial. I've got an armor Ares that has survived fights on its active tank, but doesn't fit any other active modules other than the small armor repper.

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#36 - 2014-02-13 18:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Jaro Essa wrote:
The proposed change would be a ridiculously strong buff to the RAH. Matching the 10% cycle reduction with a 10% cap reduction would mean the skill delivers pure benefit with no downside. While there are a number of other 'no downside' skills in the game, they typically max out at 5% benefit per level, with many offering lower percentages (eg. 3% per level for Surgical Strike, or 2% for your T2 turret skills). If CCP were to alter this skill into a no downside version, I doubt they would stick with the 10% cycle reduction, they'd likely cut it to 5% and keep the cap reduction to 5%.


If they reduce it to 5/5, no one would complain. Also, every other skill in the game is "no downside."

Quote:
But I don't think CCP will do that, because the RAH is already well-adapted to its niche: trading cap and armour buffer for fitting flexibility (eg. replacing a second set of active hardeners, and thus freeing up a low slot for more damage mods, or balancing out an omni tank with just a single module, etc).

As it stands, the skill enables pilots to simply shift the balance of tradeoffs - a RAH that moves to the optimal distribution of resists twice as fast consumes less armour buffer to get to that point, at the cost of increased cap consumption. So maybe you can fit one fewer Trimark and fit a damage rig instead, etc, or keep a big buffer and spend less cap on your Armor Repairer.


It would continue to be well-adapted if it didn't penalize you for training the skill. Training it from 3 to 5 is the difference between a viable fit and a non-viable fit. And that's a choice you can't go back on. Stop pretending this isn't completely stupid and out of line with everything else in the game. You're saying that a stupid skill is okay because the module itself has a function.

JetStream Drenard wrote:
The repair systems skill also increase cap usage as well as you train it up.


The RAH cannot be compared to repair systems or rapid firing. Those increase cap usage per second, but they also derive value based on shots fired and armor repaired. The cap use per shot and per hp repaired are not affected by the cycle time. They reduce cap stability, but they do not hurt the cap use or the performance of the ship. An armor hardener must be active to receive the benefit. You cannot cycle the RAH less to get the same effect. Decreasing the cycle time on the RAH increases cap use significantly but only provides a marginal and asymmetrical benefit. It is truly an anomaly in this game.

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Mario Putzo
#37 - 2014-02-13 18:31:46 UTC
Amen Brother +1
Rendiff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-02-13 18:36:05 UTC
Makes sense to me. +1
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#39 - 2014-02-13 23:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Removed a couple of posts for lacking constructive content, or trolling. Please remain on topic, polite, and constructive.

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Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#40 - 2014-02-13 23:48:04 UTC
This.

What were they thinking.....yet again lol