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POS Fuel and PI
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Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-02-13 02:49:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Cedric
So, I'm just getting back into PI (not that I was Really IN to PI before...)

My plan is to produce POS fuel in null sec. I'd like to know if the following plan is viable in the least. I don't currently want suggestions on making it better or more efficient or how your plan is better than mine, simply if it will work or not. (sorry to sound so rude...)

Planet 1 - Barren
Extract Noble Metals, refine to Precious Metals
Extract Base Metals, refine to Reactive Metals
Refine Precious Metals + Base Metals to Mechanical Parts

Planet 2 - Barren
Extract Noble Metals, refine to Precious Metals
Extract Base Metals, refine to Reactive Metals

Planet 3 - Plasma
Extract Heavy Metals, refine to Toxic Metals
Extract Non-CS Crystals, refine to Chiral Structures

Planet 4 - Gas
Extract Noble Gas, refine to Oxygen
Extract Aqueous Liquids, refine to Water
Extract Ionic Solutions, Refine to Electrolytes

Transport Precious Metals, Reactive Metals, Toxic Metals, Chiral Structures, Water and Electrolytes to:
Planet 5 - Temperate
Refine PM and TM to Enriched Uranium
Refine Toxic Metals and Chiral Structures to Consumer Electronics
Refine PM and RM to more Mechanical Parts
Refine Mech. Parts and Cons. Electronics to Robotics
Refine Water and Electrolytes to Coolant

That makes:
Oxygen, Enriched Uranium, Mechanical Parts, Coolant and Robotics.

Get myself some fuel block BP's, go Ice mining and there you go.

So, the advice I'm looking for is:
the Temperate planet Command Center be able to run that many factories, or will I need to do some refining on the Gas/Barren Planets?
Am I missing any bits?

Thanks for the advice

Edit: next question is how many extractors and how many processors? I am making way more P0 than I can currently turn into P1

Cedric
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-02-13 10:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
I have a temperate planet with 25 structures that can support 24/7 production of 2 P$'s at once so you should be fine for producing your PI P2's and P3's, I do the same thing and have no problems.

Edit: That's with Command Centre Upgrades at !V, I've never justified waiting 20+ dyas to get to level V yet Big smile
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#3 - 2014-02-13 16:01:03 UTC
is this on one character? or when you list 3 things under one planet, is that different characters? I will assume one character.

It will certainly work in teh sense that it will produce some of what you're trying to produce, but it will also suck and be horribly inefficient. Attempting to produce all 4 pos fuels with 1 character on 5 planets is a terrible idea. I could be more constructive, but you specifically asked posters to not provide such advice. However, if you do put this into action, you will learn a lot about PI, you'll just be learning the hard way.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-02-13 16:26:01 UTC
True, I assumed it was just to produce one fuel block type since mining enough ice for all four would be an exercise in death inducing boredom. Even your dormant clones would commit pre-emptive suicide...
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5 - 2014-02-13 16:30:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
True, I assumed it was just to produce one fuel block type since mining enough ice for all four would be an exercise in death inducing boredom. Even your dormant clones would commit pre-emptive suicide...


Its not about ice mining, its about trying to produce a P1, 3xP2s, and a P3 with only 5 planets. He's trying to have a fully vertically-integrated production chain for pos fuel, but he doesn't have enough planets/characters to make it even close to worthwhile.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-02-13 17:27:29 UTC
Dr Cedric wrote:
Planet 4 - Gas
Extract Noble Gas, refine to Oxygen
Extract Aqueous Liquids, refine to Water
Extract Ionic Solutions, Refine to Electrolytes


This may very well be a problem. Gas planets are huge, so links take massive amounts of CPU and PG. Links to 3 different extractors, extractors, enough extractor heads to pull a useful quantity of material and enough factories to process that may very likely exceed the available CPU and PG
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-02-13 17:39:02 UTC
Batelle wrote:


Its not about ice mining, its about trying to produce a P1, 3xP2s, and a P3 with only 5 planets. He's trying to have a fully vertically-integrated production chain for pos fuel, but he doesn't have enough planets/characters to make it even close to worthwhile.


I ignored that bit as he said too, I'll just happily set up my alts for more planets extracting as soon as I have the isk :D
Shizuken
Venerated Stars
#8 - 2014-02-13 20:55:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Shizuken
Dr Cedric wrote:

the Temperate planet Command Center be able to run that many factories, or will I need to do some refining on the Gas/Barren Planets?
Am I missing any bits?

Thanks for the advice


I actually run this exact setup on an alt. As some others have stated, it cannot be reasonably done. My alt only has level IV PI skills but I doubt even level V bonuses would allow you to do it. You simply cannot pull enough resources out of each planet AND refine them fast enough to produce the number of fuel blocks your POS consumes in one day. The command centers on your gathering planets just don't have enough capacity to run that many facilities. You would need more than one toon. I can post the numbers from my spreadsheets when I get home later today. It shows all he math on what you need to generate to break even on POS fuel requirements without having to supplement your output with market purchases.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#9 - 2014-02-13 21:08:40 UTC
Shizuken wrote:
You simply cannot pull enough resources out of each planet AND refine them fast enough to produce the number of fuel blocks your POS consumes in one day.


He didn't say anything about making enough fuel to cover a pos. He merely said he was making pos fuel. This setup should be compared to what else he could do with the same planets and skills, not measured vs what a pos can eat up. If you're running this exact setup, it implies that you think this is a good setup. I'm saying that it is not a good setup.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Psade
Blind Avarice
#10 - 2014-02-13 23:52:05 UTC
Here is a list of the material requirements of pos fuel in terms of the lowest volume requirement, that being noble gas.

So, roughly speaking, for every unit of noble gas, you need ~3 units of base metals, etc.

Some of your planets could be managed to conform to those ratios somewhat, but there is no way you're going to get enough aqueous liquid or ionic solutions to make the coolant in its proper ratio. As mentioned earlier in the thread, 3 extractors on a single planet is a problem. I know you don't want to hear about efficiency so much, but this setup is too inefficient to 'work' as is, in my opinion.

If you're hellbent on doing this with one character, you might cut extraction of the cheapest materials and haul them in. At the moment, water and reactive metals appear to be the cheapest. This tends to change over time.
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-02-14 01:25:15 UTC
Thanks a ton, everyone, this is exactly the info I was hoping to hear.

From what I gather, getting the bits and pieces together with this setup is plausible, but not super efficient.

Like was mentioned above, I'm not trying to make enough to run my own POS, instead I'm wanting a bit of extra income (however small that may be.) Not only that, but I only have access to those 4 planet types in 0.0 (Temperate, Gas, Plasma and Barren). I have a buddy in corp that is doing PI for a bit of extra cash, so I'd think between the two of us and doubling up on some planets, etc, etc..., we'll be able to make an effective production/supply chain.

Really appreciate all the help guys!

Cedric
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-02-15 20:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Cedric
So, I've been doing some calculations, and I'd like some feedback to make sure my numbers are right.

Assuming I want to make 30 runs of fuel blocks, I've calculated I'll need the following Raw Materials:
Total P0's for: 30 Run
30 Robotics
Noble Met 30000
Base Met 30000
Heavy Met 30000
Non-CS 30000

240 Coolant
Aq. Liquids 144000
IIonic Soln 144000

120 Enriched U
Noble Met 72000
Heavy Met 72000

120 Mech Parts
Noble Met 72000
Base Met 72000

600 Oxygen
Noble Gas 90000

Which makes a grand total of:
Noble Metals: 174k
Base Metals: 102k
Heavy Metals: 102k
Non-CS Crystals 30k
Aqueous Liquids 144k
Ionic Solutions 144k
Noble Gas 90k

Please let me know if this math seems right or wrong! Thanks :)

Cedric
Ginger Barbarella
#13 - 2014-02-15 20:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginger Barbarella
-snipped-

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Psade
Blind Avarice
#14 - 2014-02-15 23:11:12 UTC
Those numbers are not correct. I am not certain where things are going wrong. This site has a really good visual indicator that will help you with the numbers you need.

For the sake of clarity I'll run through the arithmetic here.

Refine from P0 to P1:
3000 P0 -> 20 P1
3000/20 = 150 P0 per P1

Refine from P1 to P2:
40 P1 -> 5 P2
40/5 = 8 P1 per P2
8 * 150 = 1,200 P0 per P2

Refine from P2 to P3:
10 P2 -> 3 P3
10/3 = 3.33333 P2 per P3
3.33333 * 1200 = 4000 P0 per P3

The 10/3 bit looks odd because it has a decimal, but you never actually make 1 at a time, you make a batch of 3. So the actual run for 3 robotics requires 12,000 of each P0 material.


Using these numbers:
P1 = 150 P0
P2 = 1,200 P0
P3 = 4,000 P0

You should end up with the following, unless I've made errors of my own.
Aqueous Liquid : 288,000
Base Metals: 264,000
Heavy Metals: 264,000
Ionic Solution: 288,000
Noble Gas: 90,000
Noble Metals: 408,000
Non-CS Crystals: 120,000
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-02-17 19:55:31 UTC
Psade wrote:
Those numbers are not correct. I am not certain where things are going wrong. This site has a really good visual indicator that will help you with the numbers you need.

For the sake of clarity I'll run through the arithmetic here.

Refine from P0 to P1:
3000 P0 -> 20 P1
3000/20 = 150 P0 per P1

Refine from P1 to P2:
40 P1 -> 5 P2
40/5 = 8 P1 per P2
8 * 150 = 1,200 P0 per P2

Refine from P2 to P3:
10 P2 -> 3 P3
10/3 = 3.33333 P2 per P3
3.33333 * 1200 = 4000 P0 per P3

The 10/3 bit looks odd because it has a decimal, but you never actually make 1 at a time, you make a batch of 3. So the actual run for 3 robotics requires 12,000 of each P0 material.


Using these numbers:
P1 = 150 P0
P2 = 1,200 P0
P3 = 4,000 P0

You should end up with the following, unless I've made errors of my own.
Aqueous Liquid : 288,000
Base Metals: 264,000
Heavy Metals: 264,000
Ionic Solution: 288,000
Noble Gas: 90,000
Noble Metals: 408,000
Non-CS Crystals: 120,000


Awesome info, thanks for help on the math and the linky, both very helpful.

Next question, what about extractor to processor ratio? I find that I'm pulling way more P0 than I have the ability to process into P1. What's the best option?

Cedric
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#16 - 2014-02-17 21:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Dr Cedric wrote:
Next question, what about extractor to processor ratio? I find that I'm pulling way more P0 than I have the ability to process into P1. What's the best option?


Depends heavily on the abundance of the planet, the size of the planet and your command center upgrades skills, how often you're willing to reset extractors, and how many extractor heads you can support. Once you've decided on the above, you can estimate a rough unit/hr of p0 and build an appropriate number of extractorsprocessors. It takes a bit of observation and tweaking for the first few days.

Making too much p0 is okay if you have a silo, you can let it accumulate, then balance that with longer cycle times or just build an extra processor. If you don't have a silo and are storing excess p0 and finished p1/p2 in the same launchpad, there's a lot less wiggle room.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Psade
Blind Avarice
#17 - 2014-02-17 23:59:37 UTC
A basic industry building goes through 6k P0/hr. The calculations from there are pretty straightforward. When you start an extraction program, it will tell you the average P0/hr that will be taken out. Most people use cycles that are completed in a number of days. Short programs will yield more but are extremely fidgety and often outpace refinement. Have at least 2 launchpads for storage, as the first few hours of a program will surely need some space. The refineries catch up toward the end of the program.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2014-02-18 14:35:23 UTC
1 launchpad and 1 silo will give you 2000m3 more storage over 2xlaunchpad,
Dr Cedric
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-02-18 18:18:00 UTC
So then the routing of all this would be:

Extractor to Silo/Launchpad for P0

Silo/Launchpad to Processor

Processor back to Launchpad for P1

Launch P1 into space/Customs to take it to the next step

After the P0 -> P1 step, timing gets easier to handle as far as I've experienced.

And as far as Processors to Extractors ratio, I should try to get my per-hour-output to add up to my per-hour processing ability (the 6000m3/hour number)?

Cedric
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-02-18 19:14:49 UTC
Look at what P2's you can produce on those planets too, better isk density...as far as I know there are no planets left where you can produce P3's without any imports...
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