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[Rubicon 1.3] Drone Assist change

First post First post First post
Author
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1281 - 2014-02-12 04:47:46 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Assist places too much control in the hands of a single person and leaves the majority of the fleet with little to do. note: we spent a lot of time considering the value in delegation of ship systems and navigation overall (why not have assisted turrets? why have fleet warp? etc)

I admit, the prospect of having my reps assisted would be handy. Or a way to stop people from jumping through the gate. Grr, gate.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1282 - 2014-02-12 07:19:04 UTC
Ali Aras wrote:
Niden wrote:
CCP Rise: Was the idea of disallowing drone assist for sentries ever discussed?

Extensively. This was my preferred solution, but it has different drawbacks: you lose the ability to sentry-assist around a dickstar POS (which is a Good Thing and an advantage of drones), and the (not great) complexity of "some drones can be assisted and some can't" is increased and reinforced.

Ultimately, I support this change, as I do think it's the best combo of goods and minimizes the bads. I'll also be following up on it and monitoring how drone assist is used after the change, and if it is still a major component of most nullsec fleets, support further reductions in drone assist numbers.
Are you also willing to further reduce tracking on capital turrets due to the effect overheating tracking computers has on 1 specific doctrine of nulsec fleets?

Good for 1 should be good for the other. Shouldn't it?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1283 - 2014-02-12 10:56:57 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
It ignores player skill limitations though,

That part I won't deny.

Grath Telkin wrote:
removing drone assign "drastically increases the number of commands sent to the server',

I guess it's lucky for me that you illustrate later why this isn't really an issue.

Grath Telkin wrote:
Drone popularity? You over buff 2 drone boats and are shocked when people use the hell out of them?

The Dominix without assist wouldn't be overpowered in fleet fights, due to scan resolution, targeting range, and the increased vulnerability to ewar that comes with not having a single ship you can put tons of RSBs and ECCM projectors on.
Drone assist allows the Dominix to ignore these factors and results in a ship that's way too powerful for its role.
The Ishtar I have no experience with (I admittedly don't even have Gallente Cruiser 5 yet) but from what I understand it will continue to be quite powerful, although groups who were using it with assist might look to other doctrines when the nerf hits.

Which brings me to the main point, that drone assist is a means of bypassing ship and skill limitations. You don't have to be able to lock your targets - the drone trigger does that for you. The natural consequence of this is the range at which we've pushed our drone assist doctrines. The only limiting factor here is how many drone link amplifiers the ship is capable of fitting.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1284 - 2014-02-12 11:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
James Amril-Kesh wrote:

The Dominix without assist wouldn't be overpowered in fleet fights, due to scan resolution, targeting range, and the increased vulnerability to ewar that comes with not having a single ship you can put tons of RSBs and ECCM projectors on.


Ok lets go over the myths before I do the end bit here, this is kind of important so please read it and don't outright dismiss it:

First, Remote Sensor Boosters and Sensor Boosters do not cancel out Damps on a 1:1 basis. In fact if you have 3 lock range scripted Sensor Boosters on and you get hit with 3 lock range scripted Damps you still lose well over 50% of your lock range.

And thats it brother, its stacking penalized out, the only thing you'll ever do no matter what after that 3rd RSB or Sebo is lose lock range.

Regarding ECM, you can have a Sensor Strength of 1 million, and a single EC-300 can and will not only jam you, but permajam you. Its one of the single largest complaints about ECM is that the counter really doesn't counter it.

So when you have a fleet of 100+ celestis as the CFC is known to do, it doesn't matter if its 1 trigger, or 100 triggers, they will all be equally damped and or jammed.

Now, on to the Dominix not being broken because it'll be restricted by Lock Range and Scan res.

This is 5 minutes of me throwing stuff at EFT, not refined, not looked over at people better at EFT than me and most importantly NOT under fleet bonuses (which will increase its lock range). The fit you're about to look at (assuming you click the link) can even be further modified:

http://i.imgur.com/XIRMIVk.png

Now with a fairly simple set of instructions for each squad to follow and our 15 member watch list, I can make sure that each squad of Domis has 1 of 15 people to assign off of since you can now assign drones from the watch list and we have a platform that will fire 50 drones worth of alpha every 4 seconds at up to 25 different targets.

Tell me again if you think that after my 5 minutes of EFT theory crafting that this nerf will make that much of a difference?

*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

EDIT EDIT: to damp that domi fit out I posted you will need one damp ship for every Domi present, 3 damps will still leave it at 90km lock range assuming both ships are under bonus and the answer at that point is for the Domis to simply set drones to aggressive and have them out before the Celestis hit grid so that they auto aggro on the Celestis fleet which shreds those thinly tanked Celesits and or makes your logis head explode trying to keep up when they all start broadcasting.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1285 - 2014-02-12 11:53:51 UTC
Congratulations, you made a Domi fit without a prop mod.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1286 - 2014-02-12 11:59:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Congratulations, you made a Domi fit without a prop mod.


Idk if you noticed but it can shoot out to a warpable range and you now have deployable MJD's, Prop mods aren't as needed as they once were James, we have Rokh fits that don't use Prop mods at all and people have Malestrom fits as well.

You don't need a prop mod in the current game environment on every battleship.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Fix Sov
#1287 - 2014-02-12 12:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
So what we can conclude with is that the drone assist nerf is happening, it'll have no effect on N3/PL
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.*Snip* Please refrain from spreading baseless rumors. ISD Ezwal.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Mario Putzo
#1288 - 2014-02-12 15:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
It weird to see so many people opposed to actually wanting to play the game in the same thread.

- Get rid of drone assist
- Get rid of fleet assists
- Get rid of "anchoring"
- Get rid of Passive Incomes.

If you want the rewards push the buttons.

Also Grath:

You basically just stole my fit m8 thanks. (The TrollCat) Range+Buffer+Resists and with Mobile Depots you can refit for pure damage in the lows with additional TR buffer using SigAmps (can effectively make damps useless period). Honestly no bullshit I have that fit already stashed aside although I have mine fit with anti EM and anti EXPL Rigs instead of 3 Trimarks. When you refit to tank you can push over 80% resist across the board.(also marginally better align time, for what it is worth)

Add a few Guardians into that mix (who can also MMJD and stay with a "MJD" BS fleet now \o/). Its like a mini SlowCat fleet hence TrollCats, Nice thing is since you can effectively start locking folks out to 200K with a fire range of like 130K you can lock **** up even with a domi long before it gets to you, so don't even really need an assist at all.

Edit:
Alternatively you could also use the Nestor, it has a similar damage range but it costs a pile more. Its natural Resist makes up for the missing lowslot in a full tank capacity, its extra mid allows you to put the extra Omni on to help make up the missing tracking bonus that Domi has, and you can refit to do RR with a hull bonus for it. Also you get an 4th flight of drones into the bay, and have slightly better maneuverability.
(with boosts you clear 200K EHP with a max tank fit, hit about 560DPS/2200V @ ~100K+FO, .015TRK No heat....1 RR+2CT = Cap Stable ~550*n SpiderTank fit dependent obviously.)
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1289 - 2014-02-12 15:56:57 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:


First, Remote Sensor Boosters and Sensor Boosters do not cancel out Damps on a 1:1 basis. In fact if you have 3 lock range scripted Sensor Boosters on and you get hit with 3 lock range scripted Damps you still lose well over 50% of your lock range.

L5 Dominix: 87.5 km
L5 Dominix + 3 sensor boosters - 3 damps from L5 Celestis (all range scripted): 51.5 km
61% total nominal range. Much smaller reduction than "well over 50%".

L5 Dominix with 3x remote sensor boosters - 3 damps L5 Celestis: 71.08 km (81% of nominal range)
Mario Putzo
#1290 - 2014-02-12 16:13:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
X Gallentius wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


First, Remote Sensor Boosters and Sensor Boosters do not cancel out Damps on a 1:1 basis. In fact if you have 3 lock range scripted Sensor Boosters on and you get hit with 3 lock range scripted Damps you still lose well over 50% of your lock range.

L5 Dominix: 87.5 km
L5 Dominix + 3 sensor boosters - 3 damps from L5 Celestis (all range scripted): 51.5 km
61% total nominal range. Much smaller reduction than "well over 50%".

L5 Dominix with 3x remote sensor boosters - 3 damps L5 Celestis: 71.08 km (81% of nominal range)


Um
51K/249(+)K is > 50% (Sebo)
71K/249(+)K is > 50% (Rsebo)
<20K/87K is >50% (no Sebo/Rsebo)
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1291 - 2014-02-12 16:28:08 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Mario Putzo wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


First, Remote Sensor Boosters and Sensor Boosters do not cancel out Damps on a 1:1 basis. In fact if you have 3 lock range scripted Sensor Boosters on and you get hit with 3 lock range scripted Damps you still lose well over 50% of your lock range.

L5 Dominix: 87.5 km
L5 Dominix + 3 sensor boosters - 3 damps from L5 Celestis (all range scripted): 51.5 km
61% total nominal range. Much smaller reduction than "well over 50%".

L5 Dominix with 3x remote sensor boosters - 3 damps L5 Celestis: 71.08 km (81% of nominal range)


Um
51K/249(+)K is > 50% (Sebo)
71K/249(+)K is > 50% (Rsebo)
<20K/87K is >50% (no Sebo/Rsebo)

Maybe I misunderstood your original post there. Why bother bringing sensor boosters and remote sensor boosters into the discussion when the damps will reduce the targeting range of any ship (with or without sensor boosters) by the same percentage?

Unbonused Hulls:
Sensor Booster II (target range): 1.6
Remote Sensor Booster II (target range): 1.81
Damps (target range): 1-.3825 = 0.61, 1/0.61 = 1.61
Mario Putzo
#1292 - 2014-02-12 16:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
X Gallentius wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


First, Remote Sensor Boosters and Sensor Boosters do not cancel out Damps on a 1:1 basis. In fact if you have 3 lock range scripted Sensor Boosters on and you get hit with 3 lock range scripted Damps you still lose well over 50% of your lock range.

L5 Dominix: 87.5 km
L5 Dominix + 3 sensor boosters - 3 damps from L5 Celestis (all range scripted): 51.5 km
61% total nominal range. Much smaller reduction than "well over 50%".

L5 Dominix with 3x remote sensor boosters - 3 damps L5 Celestis: 71.08 km (81% of nominal range)


Um
51K/249(+)K is > 50% (Sebo)
71K/249(+)K is > 50% (Rsebo)
<20K/87K is >50% (no Sebo/Rsebo)

Maybe I misunderstood your original post there. Why bother bringing sensor boosters and remote sensor boosters into the discussion when the damps will reduce the targeting range of any ship (with or without sensor boosters) by the same percentage?


I didn't bring it up. Just pointing out your faulty math. You aren't reducing to 51K from 87K, you are reducing to 51K from 249K+. Huge difference.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1293 - 2014-02-12 17:34:50 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:


First, Remote Sensor Boosters and Sensor Boosters do not cancel out Damps on a 1:1 basis. In fact if you have 3 lock range scripted Sensor Boosters on and you get hit with 3 lock range scripted Damps you still lose well over 50% of your lock range.


I didn't bring it up. Just pointing out your faulty math. You aren't reducing to 51K from 87K, you are reducing to 51K from 249K+. Huge difference.


But you ARE reducing from 87k to 51k, the point wasn't to show the difference between "3:0" to "3:3" SB/RSD, the point was the difference on a 1:1 basis (0:0, 1:1, 2:2. 3:3).
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#1294 - 2014-02-12 17:41:40 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
I didn't bring it up. Just pointing out your faulty math. You aren't reducing to 51K from 87K, you are reducing to 51K from 249K+. Huge difference.
Not faulty math. It was faulty reading comprehension on your part. Huge difference.
Mario Putzo
#1295 - 2014-02-12 17:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
X Gallentius wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
I didn't bring it up. Just pointing out your faulty math. You aren't reducing to 51K from 87K, you are reducing to 51K from 249K+. Huge difference.
Not faulty math. It was faulty reading comprehension on your part. Huge difference.


Yes it was! Admittedly my brain skipped over "nominal" in your post. Sorry.
Notorious Fellon
#1296 - 2014-02-12 18:47:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Notorious Fellon
This is a good change, in the right direction.

I would have preferred that the hard cap was based on ship class though. As an example:

All Frigate hulls: Max 5
All Cruiser hulls: max 10
All T1 BC hulls: Max 15
All Command Ships: Max 25
All BS: Max 25
All Caps + : Max 50

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.

Dave Stark
#1297 - 2014-02-12 20:03:30 UTC
Notorious Fellon wrote:
This is a good change, in the right direction.

I would have preferred that the hard cap was based on ship class though. As an example:

All Frigate hulls: Max 5
All Cruiser hulls: max 10
All T1 BC hulls: Max 15
All Command Ships: Max 25
All BS: Max 25
All Caps + : Max 50


except you've basically ****** every use case ccp want to preserve and have done little to fix the actual issue. nice.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#1298 - 2014-02-12 22:31:17 UTC
How about not letting assisted drones go past the ships control range; ie. a vexor shouldn't be able to assist drones to a navy comet 120KM away.
Mario Putzo
#1299 - 2014-02-12 23:07:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Phaade wrote:
How about not letting assisted drones go past the ships control range; ie. a vexor shouldn't be able to assist drones to a navy comet 120KM away.


They can't. Drone Control range is dependent of the owner of the drones.

(Vexors can reach 150K if they have 4 DLAs)
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1300 - 2014-02-12 23:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Grath Telkin wrote:



-"will fire 50 drones worth of alpha every 4 seconds at up to 25 different targets."-

Tell me again if you think that after my 5 minutes of EFT theory crafting that this nerf will make that much of a difference?


You gave the answer before asking the question.
Yes it will have less impact in subcap fights, as 50 drones can still hurt if not kill most subcaps in 1 or 2 volleys.
Capital fights is where this change will have its greatest effect. As is intended I believe.
Right now 100 carriers can assign 10 sentries each to 1 person who then fires on an enemy target. That target is going to die, fairly fast because of the huge alpha.
Once drone assign is restricted to 50, the overall effect of drone assist is changed. It now relies on each player the drones are assigned to hitting the right button at the right time. You now need 10 people to deal the damage instead of 1, problem is - peoples reaction times, ability to follow instructions (lock the right target), lag, etc all affect the damage dealt.
If 1 or 2 drone triggers are damped or jammed and unable to lock the target, the overall affect of your fleets drones is lowered.

EWAR is a must for any fleet likely to face drone boats, without it you give your opponent a big head start to winning.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.