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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#361 - 2014-02-11 19:37:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
And stop being an imbecile with your whiny "web it web it webit", webbing isn't a natural mechanic, freighters can't be designed around same corp alts webbing them, that is imbalanced and poor design. It's as stupid as your inability to answer to my question still.
What you mean is that your NPC freighter pilot designed to avoid war decs, cannot be webbed without punishment. Shame that, but then NPC corps do have some disadvantages. Blink


Thanks for making this clear, can't argue with webs when they can't be used eh. Whats the disadvantage for an npc corp bumper btw?


Dueling your webber = free webbing wherever you go!
Again - insufficient and faulty knowledge of game mechanics, please refer back to my previous posts.

Oh and Motoko - here's one of your buddies: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=319374
You can go around and claim "exploits" together with him. Hell, he might even web your freighter for you or vice versa!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#362 - 2014-02-11 19:39:35 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
And stop being an imbecile with your whiny "web it web it webit", webbing isn't a natural mechanic, freighters can't be designed around same corp alts webbing them, that is imbalanced and poor design. It's as stupid as your inability to answer to my question still.
What you mean is that your NPC freighter pilot designed to avoid war decs, cannot be webbed without punishment. Shame that, but then NPC corps do have some disadvantages. Blink


Thanks for making this clear, can't argue with webs when they can't be used eh. Whats the disadvantage for an npc corp bumper btw?


Dueling your webber = free webbing wherever you go!
Again - insufficient and faulty knowledge of game mechanics, please refer back to my previous posts.
True but it's the whole effort thing I guess and the time factor. Let's face it, you can't beat being in the same player corp.

BUT then OMG WAR DEC!!111!!!

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Seras VictoriaX
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#363 - 2014-02-11 19:40:09 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Why freighter bumping in High Sec is NOT an exploit.

This is a sandbox MMO and you have options.



Actually you kinda seal this entire thread with that post if you read it.


Quote:


CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit. However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis.



You can take this two ways.

1) Freighters are making an effort to move to another location, and thus its against the rules to keep bumping them over and over again.
2) Freighters lack the ability to move to another location when this is happening, and thus something needs changed to fix that.

Either way its clear from GM Karidor's post that repeatedly bumping a freighter over and over and over again, is against his rules.


Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#364 - 2014-02-11 19:40:34 UTC
Ah, but then i'd be open for wardeccing which would just make my freighter completely useless :O does this mean freighters are completely at the mercy of others ? Sounds to me like it's a useless ship.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#365 - 2014-02-11 19:41:23 UTC
Seras VictoriaX wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why freighter bumping in High Sec is NOT an exploit.

This is a sandbox MMO and you have options.



Actually you kinda seal this entire thread with that post if you read it.


Quote:


CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit. However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis.



You can take this two ways.

1) Freighters are making an effort to move to another location, and thus its against the rules to keep bumping them over and over again.
2) Freighters lack the ability to move to another location when this is happening, and thus something needs changed to fix that.

Either way its clear from GM Karidor's post that repeatedly bumping a freighter over and over and over again, is against his rules.


Please read the thread, you'll find he clarifies that stance.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#366 - 2014-02-11 19:42:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Ah, but then i'd be open for wardeccing which would just make my freighter completely useless :O does this mean freighters are completely at the mercy of others ? Sounds to me like it's a useless ship.
So you obviously don't know how easy they are to avoid?

I'm starting to wonder if you really know this game at all tbh.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#367 - 2014-02-11 19:42:50 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Ah, but then i'd be open for wardeccing which would just make my freighter completely useless :O does this mean freighters are completely at the mercy of others ? Sounds to me like it's a useless ship.


Alright, now you're just trolling. That's good, that's all you have left since your puffed up arguments got punctured.
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#368 - 2014-02-11 19:48:39 UTC
You've yet to take a shot at an argument, and as such i see no point going on with this. Do you ?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#369 - 2014-02-11 19:51:49 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
You've yet to take a shot at an argument, and as such i see no point going on with this. Do you ?
There was no point before the thread was started. It's not an exploit and considered normal game mechanics.
You have options, if you can't use some due to your insistence on war dec avoidance then that is your problem, not one of bumping.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Seras VictoriaX
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2014-02-11 19:53:12 UTC
Mag's wrote:

Please read the thread, you'll find he clarifies that stance.



I did, you want to quote it? I dont see anything addressing "attempting to leave but unable to"


In fact the last rule clarification regarding bumping titans before they go into e-warp is pretty similar.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-bumping-in-order-to-prevent-e-warp

CCP Dolan wrote:

Ships undergoing emergency warp upon appearing in space have no means to activate modules, cancel warp, or otherwise defend themselves during this period; they cannot be stopped by any warp disruption mechanic. Bumping them during this period renders the ship in question utterly helpless, against the intention of the game mechanics.


A freighter attempting to "leave the area" is 'utterly helpless'
Mag's
Azn Empire
#371 - 2014-02-11 19:58:49 UTC
Seras VictoriaX wrote:
Mag's wrote:

Please read the thread, you'll find he clarifies that stance.



I did, you want to quote it? I dont see anything addressing "attempting to leave but unable to"


In fact the last rule clarification regarding bumping titans before they go into e-warp is pretty similar.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-bumping-in-order-to-prevent-e-warp

CCP Dolan wrote:

Ships undergoing emergency warp upon appearing in space have no means to activate modules, cancel warp, or otherwise defend themselves during this period; they cannot be stopped by any warp disruption mechanic. Bumping them during this period renders the ship in question utterly helpless, against the intention of the game mechanics.


A freighter attempting to "leave the area" is 'utterly helpless'
There is this.
GM Karidor wrote:
While it will involve inconvenience, we will have to see that one actively tried evasion before we consider someone being followed around and harassed. Merely changing belts in the same system or moving a few thousand meters to another asteroid would not qualify in this regard. Ideally you would move to other systems and more than just one or two jumps to avoid being found again quickly, requiring some effort to locate you again (i.e. through locator agents).


Then we had this thread with some claiming much the same and the GMs ruled it not an exploit or harassment.

It's not breaking any rules, time to deal with it.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#372 - 2014-02-11 19:59:33 UTC
Seras VictoriaX wrote:
Mag's wrote:

Please read the thread, you'll find he clarifies that stance.



I did, you want to quote it? I dont see anything addressing "attempting to leave but unable to"


In fact the last rule clarification regarding bumping titans before they go into e-warp is pretty similar.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-bumping-in-order-to-prevent-e-warp

CCP Dolan wrote:

Ships undergoing emergency warp upon appearing in space have no means to activate modules, cancel warp, or otherwise defend themselves during this period; they cannot be stopped by any warp disruption mechanic. Bumping them during this period renders the ship in question utterly helpless, against the intention of the game mechanics.


A freighter attempting to "leave the area" is 'utterly helpless'


Incorrect - and if you actually knew anything about game mechanics you'd know they fixed that up a few patches ago. When a ship is ADDED into space now from logging in it'll insta-warp.
The freighter had a chance at getting away, he could have been webbed - he chose not to, he chose to risk his cargo and his ship while aligning, either knowingly or unknowingly. That's that pilot's fault.

Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#373 - 2014-02-11 20:01:31 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
You've yet to take a shot at an argument, and as such i see no point going on with this. Do you ?
There was no point before the thread was started. It's not an exploit and considered normal game mechanics.
You have options, if you can't use some due to your insistence on war dec avoidance then that is your problem, not one of bumping.


There is a point to the thread, the thread you are linking always does not answer the question asked. This thread , like the topic sais is about "why freighter bumping in high sec is an exploit", the arguments in this thread should be about why it should or why it shouldn't be an exploit. It's a different scenario and requires a clear answer from ccp, personally It's all the same for me, if it's allowed, I can go bump ransom some money, if it's not, well nothing changes for me.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#374 - 2014-02-11 20:03:52 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
You've yet to take a shot at an argument, and as such i see no point going on with this. Do you ?
There was no point before the thread was started. It's not an exploit and considered normal game mechanics.
You have options, if you can't use some due to your insistence on war dec avoidance then that is your problem, not one of bumping.


There is a point to the thread, the thread you are linking always does not answer the question asked. This thread , like the topic sais is about "why freighter bumping in high sec is an exploit", the arguments in this thread should be about why it should or why it shouldn't be an exploit. It's a different scenario and requires a clear answer from ccp, personally It's all the same for me, if it's allowed, I can go bump ransom some money, if it's not, well nothing changes for me.
Yes we get it, you don't like the ruling. But it has been ruled upon and it was deemed normal game mechanics and not an exploit. Therefore this thread is pointless.

You have options, use them.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
JetStream Drenard
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#375 - 2014-02-11 20:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: JetStream Drenard
Mag's wrote:
Seras VictoriaX wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why freighter bumping in High Sec is NOT an exploit.

This is a sandbox MMO and you have options.



Actually you kinda seal this entire thread with that post if you read it.


Quote:


CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit. However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis.



You can take this two ways.

1) Freighters are making an effort to move to another location, and thus its against the rules to keep bumping them over and over again.
2) Freighters lack the ability to move to another location when this is happening, and thus something needs changed to fix that.

Either way its clear from GM Karidor's post that repeatedly bumping a freighter over and over and over again, is against his rules.


Please read the thread, you'll find he clarifies that stance.

Back to playing devils advocate again... This linked thread is only expounding on miner bumping. I scrolled through all 16 pages and found only 2 DEV posts on page 1. Miner bumping in and of itself is not usually about ganking but griefing AFK miners. If the aforementioned miner warps off to another system and is followed then it is in fact harassment. Therefore, this article does not specifically apply to freighter bumping, because in actuality, the freighter is being prevented from warping off in the first place. So in interpretation of the the DEV bumping post, bumping freighters COULD be construed as harassment, since you are preventing the freighter from leaving the area, and would be handled on a case by case basis by CCP.

I play devils advocate when I try to put myself in the position of the single account player, with no (or no available) friends. In this instance, the single account player's ONLY recourse is to petition for harassment and hope that CCP agrees. I guess you would have to prove that you were not on autopilot as well.

WITHOUT a clear CCP ruling on freighter bumping specifically, we will never really know...
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#376 - 2014-02-11 20:09:44 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
This thread , like the topic sais is about "why freighter bumping in high sec is an exploit",


Quote:
exploit
verb
ɪkˈsplɔɪt,ɛk-/
.....
2.
make use of (a situation) in a way considered unfair or underhand.
"the company was exploiting a legal loophole"



  • It's "unfair" according to you.
  • It is easily avoidable (webbing), thus not unfair.
  • CCP is well aware of bumping mechanics and deemed it within the rules
  • Any and all arguments here against bumping have been dismantled


Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#377 - 2014-02-11 20:16:45 UTC
- Once bumped, can not be in anyway escaped from
- Other players may help but must lose ships and security status in order to do so
- Is used as a way of warp disrupting without having to aggress
- Creates risk free ganking (target cannot escape, sufficient numbers can be gotten with time, unlimited planning time)
- Webbing does not give 100% guarantee of safety and requires an additional account while perma bump requires only one. - Subsequent ganking requires more, but being safe from said gank isn't guaranteed even with unlimited amount of fleet members helping. While successful gank can always be made.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#378 - 2014-02-11 20:20:48 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
- Once bumped, can not be in anyway escaped from


Wrong, reference all my other posts and your lack of imagination+ingame knowledge.

Motoko Innocentius wrote:
- Other players may help but must lose ships and security status in order to do so


Wrong, again lack of imagination+ingame knowledge.
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
- Is used as a way of warp disrupting without having to aggress


Bumping ships is deemed completely acceptable and within rules.
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
- Creates risk free ganking (target cannot escape, sufficient numbers can be gotten with time, unlimited planning time)


Risk free!? Hahahahha. Completely and utterly wrong.
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
- Webbing does not give 100% guarantee of safety and requires an additional account while perma bump requires only one.

100 % safety? In my EVE? Get the **** out.

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#379 - 2014-02-11 20:21:55 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
- Subsequent ganking requires more, but being safe from said gank isn't guaranteed even with unlimited amount of fleet members helping. While successful gank can always be made.


Successful gank IS NOT guaranteed.
I couldn't fit more quotes in.
Cathy Mikakka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#380 - 2014-02-11 20:34:54 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
- Once bumped, can not be in anyway escaped from


Wrong, reference all my other posts and your lack of imagination+ingame knowledge.

Motoko Innocentius wrote:
- Creates risk free ganking (target cannot escape, sufficient numbers can be gotten with time, unlimited planning time)


Risk free!? Hahahahha. Completely and utterly wrong.



You haven't said a single thing on how to escape except "call yo corp bros" one. Which makes no sense unless you want to gank the bumper?

And what risk do gankers risk while doing this?