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'In Real LIfe I am KInd. In EVE I am a Psychopath'

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Author
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#141 - 2014-02-11 05:44:26 UTC
I never understood the implication of psychopathy being such a "bad" thing. Oh no, I make decisions using reason instead of automated kneekerk emotional responses and/or what i think everyone else wants me to do.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2014-02-11 06:23:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
As someone with no knowledge of the related fields I must ask, what do you mean by sociopaths not existing?

I mean that it's a century-old term that is no longer really considered a valid (or even useful) diagnosis. At best, sociopathy is a nit-picking subcategory of psychopathy and when people talk about “sociopaths”, they generally actually mean people suffering from anti-social personality disorder.

Thanks for the explanation.
Clementina wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Maybe I misread, it sounded like you were equating undocking with throwing money into a poker pot. I can't say I agree with that.

Undocking is quite like throwing money into the pot. I mean your ship, mods, and cargo is worth isk is it not? And you wish to have more isk, kills on the killboard, and honour when you redock then when you left right? But other people also want kills and isk, your isk and your ship on their killboard. So you risk the ship along side others who are risking their ships in the same game, and sometimes you win and other times you don't win.

Risking my ship is a given, though not always in direct competition and rarely in a direct, limited or moderated "fair" competition. I find it to be a difficult comparison to make, must less equating acts.

One, you put something out that only comes back if you win, but the engagement is bound by very specific rules which define the outcome. The other, anyone is free to chose the terms of "victory," needn't necessarily encounter one another to obtain it and doesn't necessarily require re-docking with those assets intact.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2014-02-11 06:24:46 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So what you're saying is that those who are able to treat the game as a game and laugh at the hilarious mistakes and pratfalls it inevitably generates are well-adjusted people


Well adjusted people don't "play" games exclusively to win the game. They play for fun, for challenge, for the act of bonding with the other players. There is context to their play that informs their actions in the game and they are able to step outside the game and judge those actions in that greater context i.e. they can differentiate the in-game motivations and consequences from the out-of-game motivations and consequences.

No one is holding a gun to a ganker's head, making him carry out a gank. It is a choice to complete the action of ganking, same as mining or trading or any of the other things that can be done in EVE. The difference being the consequences of a gank versus shooting asteroids or NPCs. Asteroids don't feel bad when you shoot them. People do, and whether those feelings are justified or not, they are "real". They do not take place within the confines of the game, and neither does the decision to cause those feelings. A ganker doesn't just choose to "win EVE". If he/she is a well-adjusted person, then he/she understand that their decision to gank "in-game" is also a decision to risk causing another person to feel bad "out-of-game". That's what it means to be able to distinguish the game from the real world. Some of you clearly do not have that ability to distinguish, or you are pretending not to have that ability, because it is convenient to your self-image.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#144 - 2014-02-11 07:18:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
“sociopaths” (something that doesn't even exist).
Wut?

sociopath
[soh-see-uh-path, soh-shee-]
noun Psychiatry.
a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.
Compare psychopath.

Origin:
1940–45; socio- + -path

Related forms
sociopathic, adjective
sociopathy [soh-see-op-uh-thee, soh-shee-] , noun

Mr Epeen Cool

Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
#145 - 2014-02-11 07:18:33 UTC
To OP:
From the article you linked (which did not link the scientific article, a pity), you misinterpreted the results. The study was interpreted as "playing an (by common media) evil-associated avatar leads to the wish to causing discomfort", it was not about playing a game on the evil side. As no Avatar in Eve can be clearly defined as evil (All characters are unknown and from human specimen) this result cannot be used on eve. The interpretation you used "playing eve evil makes you evil" resulted clearly from your wish of interpreting the short form of the article. Thats pretty evil... ;P
Chopper Rollins
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2014-02-11 07:25:46 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
I never understood the implication of psychopathy being such a "bad" thing. Oh no, I make decisions using reason instead of automated kneekerk emotional responses and/or what i think everyone else wants me to do.


The clue is in the -path bit of the word, pathology usually is uncool. Social animals without empathy or a developed moral sense are fail. Reason disconnected from other human qualities like memory, imagination, ethics or common sense is just instrumental and can lead to horrors. Any horror can be rationalised.



Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2014-02-11 07:30:29 UTC
Shampoo-Banana (Champaign-Urbana) - I spent two years (a good twenty plus years back) there and while I learned plenty about real life and how people truly are, when it came to academics, I see some aspects just have not changed...
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#148 - 2014-02-11 08:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alphea Abbra
Markku Laaksonen wrote:
I've explained my position as clearly as I can. If you believe you can't treat someone poorly because there are no consequences, you have an interesting world view. If you believe the way you treat someone is a consequence then we can't have any discussion on this matter. Your belief is incorrect. But I did think this was interesting...
It was actually a intended as a smart-ass few-liner comment to grab attention.
Now, however, thinking about it, I think it's even more devastating to your particular argument then I first believed.
You write, further down, "inhibition". Yes, exactly. I don't harm people IRL because it harms people. That's my inhibition. I can do whatever I want in EVE, leave no negative consequences, because I do not harm people. If I could do whatever I wanted IRL and be sure not to harm people? I very well might do it.
That's why I leaped on the word consequence earlier.
Because if there are no consequences for my actions in EVE, that's exactly why it cannot be a moral issue.

It would work less well against someone else, I acknowledge that. So here you are, a tailor-made counter!

Quote:
Alphea Abbra wrote:
This "you are who you are in the dark", or "when relieved of consequences, you act on your darker desires" is simply fantasy used to demonise others to reinforce your view of your own moral high ground, or soften the blow of a loss. "He cheated, so it's okay" - well yeah, except he did not break any rules, so he didn't cheat.


It's not a simple fantasy. It's reality. I don't use it to demonize others or reinforce any moral high ground. I don't claim any moral high ground against others. You made that claim for me.
AGAIN with the fantasy, the demonising and the moral high ground!
In other words: No.
You've watched too many movies.

Quote:
That's why I use word (like in my previous post that you did so well at comprehending) like 'probably' 'inclination' etc. Me judging you as being a douche makes no claim to my morality (or lack thereof.)

It does not follow that me thinking you're a douche means that you're a bad/evil/immoral/whatever person. It simply is what it is. If that bothers you, you need to introspect a bit on why it bothers you.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.
You know, one of my opponents last election was cute. I could almost want to take him with me and put him up on one of my bookshelves, then feed him three times a day. It would be easy: Pick him up, put him in my pocket, take him home, put him up on a shelf.
In the end, I didn't do it. Not because it would be illegal, or because he has family and job, or because of issues with putting him in my pocket, but because I didn't have enough room on my bookshelves.
That still bothers me. I could have made space.

That some person is wrong on the internet does not call for bother or introspection.
Galen Darksmith
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#149 - 2014-02-11 08:30:41 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So what you're saying is that those who are able to treat the game as a game and laugh at the hilarious mistakes and pratfalls it inevitably generates are well-adjusted people


Well adjusted people don't "play" games exclusively to win the game. They play for fun, for challenge, for the act of bonding with the other players.



This is true for any game, I'm not sure what your point is. If we're playing poker and you're just there to hang out with buds and I'm there because I like to compete, does that make me a bad person? Hell, it's not exactly binary either, why can't I like both?

EVE is just a game, just like poker is just a game. You can bet big and lose big, but trying to paint the guy across the table from you as some sort of psychopath because he bested you in a game is juvenile at best.

"EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for." -CCP Wrangler

djentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#150 - 2014-02-11 08:47:32 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
The difference being the consequences of a gank versus shooting asteroids or NPCs. Asteroids don't feel bad when you shoot them. People do, and whether those feelings are justified or not, they are "real"


If a player is getting their feelings hurt due to having a spaceship blown up in a game about blowing up spaceships, this player should unsubscribe and seek professional help.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#151 - 2014-02-11 09:36:29 UTC
Relevant

Also, crazy people don't know that they're crazy. So I'm not crazy or a psychopath. The other 499,999 people in this game are ****** in the head though... Cool

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!

Josef Djugashvilis
#152 - 2014-02-11 09:43:19 UTC
Some one who plays the bad guy in Eve, is a bad guy in real life the same way an actor who plays a bad guy in a film is also a bad guy in real life.

This is not a signature.

Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#153 - 2014-02-11 09:44:38 UTC
Galen Darksmith wrote:
This is true for any game, I'm not sure what your point is. If we're playing poker and you're just there to hang out with buds and I'm there because I like to compete, does that make me a bad person? Hell, it's not exactly binary either, why can't I like both?

EVE is just a game, just like poker is just a game. You can bet big and lose big, but trying to paint the guy across the table from you as some sort of psychopath because he bested you in a game is juvenile at best.


EVE is a computer simulation running on one of the most advanced and sophisticated pieces of computing technology in the history of mankind, requiring hundreds of people to maintain it and complicated, distributed telecommunications infrastructure through which other advanced and sophisticated computing devices can input and receive outputs from said simulation in real-time by running "client" software programs on behalf of "users", of which many thousands can be connected to said simulation at any given time and with the results of those inputs and outputs persisting in the simulation and able to affect each and every other user according to a complex set of rules . . . etc., etc., etc.

Poker is played with little sheets of dried wood pulp that have colorful symbols and drawings on them.

Are they really the same thing? Or are you a ******* ******?
What is EVE's equivalent of a "royal flush"? What is poker's equivalent of a "hot drop"?

djentropy Ovaert wrote:
If a player is getting their feelings hurt due to having a spaceship blown up in a game about blowing up spaceships, this player should unsubscribe and seek professional help.


Is EVE about blowing up spaceships for you? Why must EVE be about getting my spaceship blown up, for me, just because it is about blowing up spaceships for you? Do you realize that there are NPC spaceships that you can blow up without upsetting an actual person? Do you realize that you can blow up your own spaceships if EVE is "a game about blowing up spaceships"? Is it nice for you to impose your perspective of EVE onto my gameplay? Don't you want to be a nice person?

Think about this: If person A needs professional help, maybe person B shouldn't be taunting and griefing them. Why would person B be doing that? Doesn't person B want to be a nice person? Why not?
Michael Ruckert
Hohere Kavallerie-Kommando
#154 - 2014-02-11 09:55:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Ruckert
Fanfest 2012 - the "Mittani Incident".

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/03/29/the-mittanis-crime-punishment-in-eve-online/

"‘The Mittani’ has always been roleplayed as a baddie, which is not the as being the bad guy in real life, as he explained: “It’s one thing to play a villain in an online roleplaying game – when I post on these forums or on twitter, I usually do so as ‘The Mittani’, and do my level best to convince everyone that I’m an unrepentant space villain, as that kind of facade provides an in-game advantage to me and my alliance. But I am not that character in real life, as anyone who has met me can attest. I went way, way, /way/ past the line on Thursday night by mocking the Mackinaw miner at a real-life event. I am not actually a sociopath or a sadist, and I certainly don’t want people to kill themselves in real life over an internet spaceship game, no matter what I may say or do within the game itself.”

Video of the actual words and audience/CCP reaction (much laughter and applause).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbYNLmtAMAw

In summary, data input for the next study.

"No matter how well you perform there's always somebody of intelligent opinion who thinks it's lousy." - Laurence Olivier

PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Sedition.
#155 - 2014-02-11 09:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
I would also submit that ganking, piracy, gate camping, etc, are not example of psychopathic behavior.

Take, for example, the new order and their mining permits. In the real world, that's called racketeering, and is typically the legerdemain of the mob or local drug cartel. Criminal? Yes. Psychopathic? No.

Likewise, ganking a freighter is like robbing an armored truck carrying cash/gold/valuables to the bank. Criminal? Of course! Psychopathic? Nope.

Gatecamping? Pfft, highwaymen robbing passerby's on roads and bridges is a time honored tradition since the days of the Roman Empire. Again: Criminal, yes, psychopathic, no. The moral of the story? If you've ever been scammed, exploded, or otherwise wronged, odds are it wasn't an example of psychopathic behavior. Just your regular, absolutely banal criminal behavior.

In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find anything actually psychopathic in the community of new eden. I suppose the closest thing would be individuals that use in game means and motivations to leverage or threaten out of game consequences, or those that judge others based on their faux-crime lives in a videogame.What?
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#156 - 2014-02-11 10:40:30 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Are they really the same thing? Or are you a ******* ******?
They're both games that can be for fun or for competition, and where feelings can be invested. Similar indeed.
Poker has a more defined goal, EVEs sandbox makes it slightly more complicated, but for the purpose of analogy it's pretty fitting.
Quote:
What is EVE's equivalent of a "royal flush"? What is poker's equivalent of a "hot drop"?
What a non-sequitur, just like "waaaaah eve = tech poker = paper waaaaah".

Quote:
Is EVE about blowing up spaceships for you? Why must EVE be about getting my spaceship blown up, for me, just because it is about blowing up spaceships for you? Do you realize that there are NPC spaceships that you can blow up without upsetting an actual person? Do you realize that you can blow up your own spaceships if EVE is "a game about blowing up spaceships"? Is it nice for you to impose your perspective of EVE onto my gameplay? Don't you want to be a nice person?

Think about this: If person A needs professional help, maybe person B shouldn't be taunting and griefing them. Why would person B be doing that? Doesn't person B want to be a nice person? Why not?
EVE is about a sandbox that permits and to a large extend encourages blowing up other players' ships.
If someone plays this game, I tend to assume they have grasped such core concepts. The PvP aspect - whether in trading, or influence, or building, or SOV. holding, or the most basic "i shoot you, bang bang" - is probably one of the first a player is confronted with when they google EVE, and as such I actually expect most players to not be your hypothetical person A.
The conclusion must be that I don't taunt or grief "person A"s.
If I played a game that was decidedly not EVE in this manner - if I played Hello Kitty Online for example - it would likely be griefing. People who log into that game might not consent to do and be done upon as in EVE. People who log into EVE do consent to exactly that sandbox with the PvP aspect.
You might have to turn it around:
Those who play EVE but do not like this aspect are the rulebreakers/sociopaths/etc!

No, of course not, although they may be in denial about the game they play.

Happy to help!Smile
Mythrandier
Solace Corp
#157 - 2014-02-11 11:09:43 UTC


It does always amuse that people cant seem to separate fantasy from reality.

I love to play first person games, I derive great satisfaction from shooting other people in a virtual environment. For me its the challenege of beating another person in either reactions or accuracy.

However, I despise violence IRL and honestly think that those you use it as a first resort are somewhat unevolved.

Also, OP quoting the Daily Fail and expecting to be taken seriously. Many lols.


"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -  D. Adams.

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#158 - 2014-02-11 11:36:24 UTC
Are people who shoot other people in FPS games psychopaths?
Do you see people who play Legend of Zelda running around with swords, brutally disfiguring flocks of chickens until they attack?
How many people who play Grand Theft Auto go out and steal police cars and run over prostitutes?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-02-11 11:43:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Veronica Felix wrote:
We often see people in EVE who defensively claim to be good, decent folk in real life, yet play vicious psychotics in EVE. But can they really separate the two? Does one's EVE persona reflect who and what people are in real life despite all their denials?

A new study claims that playing the villain makes you a bad person in real life:

'Gamers that adopted villainous Voldemort as an avatar, were more likely to dish out a punishment in the experiment .

'University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign researchers found that people who played games as a heroic character were more likely to reward others.

'They warned that how gamers represent themselves in the virtual world of video games may affect how they behave toward others in the real world.
'


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2555752/Playing-villain-video-games-makes-MEAN-Avatar-role-play-replicated-real-world-claims-study.html#ixzz2svavZ1lj


And the Daily Fail strikes again.

Do you understand how bad the Daily Fail's history is of poorly reporting on any research findings in scientific fields? Let me know when you've read the actual research paper and have found a myriad of details the Fail managed to omit.

There is nothing, absolutely no evidence, to suggest that someone's behaviour in a videogame can reflect what kind of person they are in reality. I'm sure you'd like to think there is, because it makes you feel better about yourself, it helps you feel superior to the person that just humiliated you to think that IRL, somehow, you're a better person than they are. But it just isn't the case, and by trying to link someone's in-game behaviour with their RL personality, or equate it to a mental disorder or psychopathy, you are only demonstrating the full nature of your butthurt.

As for the Daily Mail, this is worth a read. It talks about some interesting relationships with supposed 'researchers' and the industries that pay for them, particularly in the UK. Those same industries then go to the media with their 'findings' and pay them to float it in a 'science' column. UK media is some of the worst in the world, possibly worse than that in the US, at impartiality. But that's just because more of it is owned by Rupert Murdoch.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#160 - 2014-02-11 11:53:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr Epeen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
“sociopaths” (something that doesn't even exist).
Wut?
Yes? Sociopathy is an absolutely antedeluvian and completely outdated term.

It doesn't really exist as a condition or diagnosis any more.

Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Well adjusted people don't "play" games exclusively to win the game. They play for fun, for challenge, for the act of bonding with the other players.
…so, much like what I said then: the ones that treat the game as a game and laugh at the hilarious mistakes and pratfalls it inevitably generates are well-adjusted people. The ones who can't separate game from reality and who abuse and threaten other players for things that happen in the game — commonly when they perceive a loss of some kind — are the ones who need to have their medication adjusted. The gankers you keep yelping about don't play to win; they play for fun, for challenge, for the act of bonding.

Quote:
Why must EVE be about getting my spaceship blown up
For the same reason that an FPS is about shooting people in the face: because it's what drives the entire game.