These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

First post
Author
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#241 - 2014-02-10 16:19:35 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
[quote=Riot Girl]It's not being used in an unintended way.

It doesn't matter if the mechanic was designed to be used that way or not, CCP have kept it in the game knowing how people are using it. This means it is not being used in an unintended way.


You have just singlehandedly explained why no computer application need ever be modified or updated.

Will you stop twisting my words? Argue like a grown up, please.
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#242 - 2014-02-10 16:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Motoko Innocentius
Kenrailae wrote:
Is Okay Estrella.


Motoko is one of those people who doesn't think he needs to prepare for anything til he's already in the slaughter house, that his case is special.


I wouldn't spend any more time on him. This whole thread has been spent trying to tell the Freighters how to avoid being ganked, by some of the very people ganking them, and they don't think they should listen.


You've yet to give a foolproof countermeasure that saves you from having your character rendered useless untill the other person decides so, you think you're a special kiddo whos playthings should never be taken away. Once the freighter is bumped, it's gameover. Sure you could coutner this by killing everything on all gates you come to, but if thats ur answer... your even dumber than i thought.

Once again, if someone gets a bump on you, it's game over.

But if you're so certain you can do it, step in a freighter, lets see not get bumped to hell with me waiting :) if you're going to decline, it's p clear you're full of **** even with your excuses "i don't want to use time for it" or what ever you come up with.
Estrella Sheikh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2014-02-10 16:23:55 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
[quote=Riot Girl]It's not being used in an unintended way.

It doesn't matter if the mechanic was designed to be used that way or not, CCP have kept it in the game knowing how people are using it. This means it is not being used in an unintended way.


You have just singlehandedly explained why no computer application need ever be modified or updated.


Not every part of an application needs an update when someone adds or removes code. It's prioritized based on impact to the production code. Bumping for example is not high on the priority list, It's not breaking a large enough majority's gameplay.

If programmers had to rewrite the entire code every update or patch, I'm pretty sure we'd be paying more for this game.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#244 - 2014-02-10 16:26:23 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
[quote=Riot Girl]It's not being used in an unintended way.

It doesn't matter if the mechanic was designed to be used that way or not, CCP have kept it in the game knowing how people are using it. This means it is not being used in an unintended way.


You have just singlehandedly explained why no computer application need ever be modified or updated.

Will you stop twisting my words? Argue like a grown up, please.


How is that even remotely twisting your words? Your entire point is "It exists in the game, therefore it must be intended use of the mechanics." You're not leaving any room, naturally, for the simple fact that CCP has development priorities, the list of which likely would not have perma-bumping of freighters anywhere near the top, or for the possibility that CCP just hasn't yet been thoroughly convinced of the seriousness of the problem, but could be at some future point. You might as well be arguing against further development of the game at all.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#245 - 2014-02-10 16:28:05 UTC
Development priorities? This is a GM issue, not a developer issue.
Estrella Sheikh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#246 - 2014-02-10 16:29:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Estrella Sheikh
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Is Okay Estrella.


Motoko is one of those people who doesn't think he needs to prepare for anything til he's already in the slaughter house, that his case is special.


I wouldn't spend any more time on him. This whole thread has been spent trying to tell the Freighters how to avoid being ganked, by some of the very people ganking them, and they don't think they should listen.


You've yet to give a foolproof countermeasure that saves you from having your character rendered useless untill the other person decides so, you think you're a special kiddo whos playthings should never be taken away. Once the freighter is bumped, it's gameover. Sure you could coutner this by killing everything on all gates you come to, but if thats ur answer... your even dumber than i thought.

Once again, if someone gets a bump on you, it's game over.

But if you're so certain you can do it, step in a freighter, lets see not get bumped to hell with me waiting :) if you're going to decline, it's p clear you're full of **** even with your excuses "i don't want to use time for it" or what ever you come up with.


Meet me in Niarja brah, or Madirmilire, or Kaaputenen, You will see freighters get bumped and survive. because they don't table flip the first time someone points their ship at them.

You've literally given up. You posses no drive or motivation to adapt your gameplay to someone who has adapted theirs. Also since when is something in Eve foolproof? stop acting foolish.

You probably complain when someone salvages your wrecks before you.

Edit: Can someone call the grammar police? I'm dying here.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#247 - 2014-02-10 16:30:25 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
the possibility that CCP just hasn't yet been thoroughly convinced of the seriousness of the problem

You want to convince CCP of the seriousness of the issue? Then stop flying freighters. When CCP looks at their data and sees no one flying freighters in high-sec, they will see there is a problem and address it. The fact is, freighters are being flown in abundance in highsec, which suggests the issue is actually nowhere near as serious as you want to make it out to be.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#248 - 2014-02-10 16:31:15 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
quote=Mu-Shi Ai]
Riot Girl wrote:
It's not being used in an unintended way.

It doesn't matter if the mechanic was designed to be used that way or not, CCP have kept it in the game knowing how people are using it. This means it is not being used in an unintended way.


This is faulty. Bumping is a valid mechanic that when abused can be considered an exploit. Bumping is not something that can be "fixed," meaning the exploit remains in-game. Its dealt with on a case by case basis, subject to petition, and thus imperfect oversight. The length of time that a player is bumped is a factor. Bumping someone to delay/prevent alignment to kill them is proper usage, but there are certain circumstances, particularly in highsec, where its used to circumvent other game mechanics to the detriment of the game. The vast majority of bumps are not anything that could be considered exploits, however it is possible to repeatedly bump ships, leaving them uncontrollable, for hours. There's no way that in such circumstances this could be considered anything but an exploit.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#249 - 2014-02-10 16:36:32 UTC
Batelle wrote:
This is faulty. Bumping is a valid mechanic that when abused can be considered an exploit.

Yeah, like all game mechanics.

Quote:
Bumping is not something that can be "fixed," meaning the exploit remains in-game.

What exploit?

Quote:
The length of time that a player is bumped is a factor. Bumping someone to delay/prevent alignment to kill them is proper usage, but there are certain circumstances, particularly in highsec, where its used to circumvent other game mechanics to the detriment of the game. The vast majority of bumps are not anything that could be considered exploits, however it is possible to repeatedly bump ships, leaving them uncontrollable, for hours. There's no way that in such circumstances this could be considered anything but an exploit.

It's considered harassment, not an exploit.
Estrella Sheikh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#250 - 2014-02-10 16:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Estrella Sheikh
Batelle wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
quote=Mu-Shi Ai]
Riot Girl wrote:
It's not being used in an unintended way.

It doesn't matter if the mechanic was designed to be used that way or not, CCP have kept it in the game knowing how people are using it. This means it is not being used in an unintended way.


This is faulty. Bumping is a valid mechanic that when abused can be considered an exploit. Bumping is not something that can be "fixed," meaning the exploit remains in-game. Its dealt with on a case by case basis, subject to petition, and thus imperfect oversight. The length of time that a player is bumped is a factor. Bumping someone to delay/prevent alignment to kill them is proper usage, but there are certain circumstances, particularly in highsec, where its used to circumvent other game mechanics to the detriment of the game. The vast majority of bumps are not anything that could be considered exploits, however it is possible to repeatedly bump ships, leaving them uncontrollable, for hours. There's no way that in such circumstances this could be considered anything but an exploit.


My only problem with this is that If you are seriously sitting trying to align to one thing for several hours without reaching out to anyone at all, friend or random local, I can't take your plight seriously.

If i'm flying one of my characters through system and someone is crying for help in local because someone has been bumping them for forever, I'm the kind of person who will do something about it.

The problem I feel here is that OP literally is making NO effort to do anything about the ONE bumper that is bothering them.

Case by case, if this character logs in, Locators you, then follows you to bump you AND ONLY YOU off EVERYTHING, they are then harassing you, not exploiting any sort of gameplay.

Webbing freighters circumvents the 41s align time that freighters have but i highly doubt you will see that fixed anytime soon.

Edit: I'm sorry, My rancor is not directed at Thread OP, I meant Mokoto as OP
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#251 - 2014-02-10 16:42:13 UTC
estrella, sure , i'll go to niarjah when i get the time, i'll pm you when i've started the bumping to see if you're there.
Dieterlin
Reckless-Endangerment
Manifesto.
#252 - 2014-02-10 16:46:35 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:

Freighters don't need modules. They exist to be giant boxes. We also learned a long time ago that as soon as you give one thing hoping it will alleviate all the whining about something, 10 more things pop up in its place. Tried and true.



Freighters could really use some fitting options. Why should freighters only be giant boxes? Industrial ships are also heavily geared toward moving stuff, and they have plenty of options for tank/cargo/troll fits.

Quote:

What Freighters need is to remember that Eve IS a PVP game. So... PVP. The best counters for Gankers are either a griffin wing support(pre-lock any gank ship that hits the field, soon as it goes suspect, perma jam it) with some logistics, a pair of Rapiers with Claymore/Astarte booster warping to station between every gate, Or to simply not use your freighter or keep the values low. I'd never suggest a Freighter to a pilot. An orca is infinitely better. A JF better still.

All in all, you choose to buy a freighter and use it, and NOT take precautions to protect it, you choose to lose it. Maybe not today, but it will happen. CCP doesn't need to fix anything here. People need to take responsibility for their stuff, and remember this is a PVP Sandbox. So bring your PVP toys to the sandbox and wreck it


Can you imagine anything in EVE that would be more boring than being a hisec Freighter escort? At least with mining, you have the option of watching a movie or something. A freighter escort would need to be constantly vigilant for the entire (painfully slow) journey, and even then, they can't really do much about a bumping stabber keeping the freighter out of warp basically indefinitely. What do you suggest, suicide-ganking the bumper? Should every freighter have a gang of a half-dozen catalysts on standby, on top of the ECM wing and logis and webbing ships that you recommend?
Estrella Sheikh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#253 - 2014-02-10 16:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Estrella Sheikh
Dieterlin wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

Freighters don't need modules. They exist to be giant boxes. We also learned a long time ago that as soon as you give one thing hoping it will alleviate all the whining about something, 10 more things pop up in its place. Tried and true.



Freighters could really use some fitting options. Why should freighters only be giant boxes? Industrial ships are also heavily geared toward moving stuff, and they have plenty of options for tank/cargo/troll fits.

Quote:

What Freighters need is to remember that Eve IS a PVP game. So... PVP. The best counters for Gankers are either a griffin wing support(pre-lock any gank ship that hits the field, soon as it goes suspect, perma jam it) with some logistics, a pair of Rapiers with Claymore/Astarte booster warping to station between every gate, Or to simply not use your freighter or keep the values low. I'd never suggest a Freighter to a pilot. An orca is infinitely better. A JF better still.

All in all, you choose to buy a freighter and use it, and NOT take precautions to protect it, you choose to lose it. Maybe not today, but it will happen. CCP doesn't need to fix anything here. People need to take responsibility for their stuff, and remember this is a PVP Sandbox. So bring your PVP toys to the sandbox and wreck it


Can you imagine anything in EVE that would be more boring than being a hisec Freighter escort? At least with mining, you have the option of watching a movie or something. A freighter escort would need to be constantly vigilant for the entire (painfully slow) journey, and even then, they can't really do much about a bumping stabber keeping the freighter out of warp basically indefinitely. What do you suggest, suicide-ganking the bumper? Should every freighter have a gang of a half-dozen catalysts on standby, on top of the ECM wing and logis and webbing ships that you recommend?


Because if you could fit a DC on a Freighter, Your tank would be some ridiculous 4-500k EHP in structure alone. The Lack of mods is a tradeoff for overk 800km3 available. Take that up with CCP but In my opinion giving them even 1 low/1mid would turn them into High sec hauling carriers.

o_o Boring?? 1)lulz in fleet chat. 2) Potential fights? Since when does potential fights for a pvp group = boring? 3) If you don't know how to have fun in your situation then it's not really anyone elses fault or problem. It sounds like you rather do stuff yourself in eve which is completely okay, your risks just run higher.

Edit:It posted before I could finish typing ):

Edit 2: Also, have you ever been sov grinding? That takes every cake over boring ****.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#254 - 2014-02-10 16:58:43 UTC
Dieterlin wrote:
Why should freighters only be giant boxes? Industrial ships are also heavily geared toward moving stuff, and they have plenty of options for tank/cargo/troll fits.

Then use an industrial ship. If Freighters were given fitting slots, they'd still need to be balanced to have the same EHP they currently have, only with a fully fitted tank. How many freighter pilots do you think will fit tank?

Quote:
Can you imagine anything in EVE that would be more boring than being a hisec Freighter escort? At least with mining, you have the option of watching a movie or something. A freighter escort would need to be constantly vigilant for the entire (painfully slow) journey, and even then, they can't really do much about a bumping stabber keeping the freighter out of warp basically indefinitely. What do you suggest, suicide-ganking the bumper? Should every freighter have a gang of a half-dozen catalysts on standby, on top of the ECM wing and logis and webbing ships that you recommend?

Anything you want to be good at in Eve is boring. You have to put the best work in if you want to be better than everyone else, and that often takes planning and dedication and a lot of boring and repetitive tasks which only you can push yourself to do.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#255 - 2014-02-10 17:07:05 UTC
All this talk of exploit and calls for change, are moot and redundant. CCP was asked to look into bumping, they did. They would have taken all options into consideration, when making their decision. They have posted their stance on the subject.

GM Karidor wrote:
CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit.

It's time to accept it and use the other options and tools available. Your failure to use those options and tools, cannot be construed as the fault of the bumping mechanic. Or mean bumping is an exploit.

It looks like sandbox time. Cool

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Dieterlin
Reckless-Endangerment
Manifesto.
#256 - 2014-02-10 18:54:47 UTC
Estrella Sheikh wrote:
Dieterlin wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

Freighters don't need modules. They exist to be giant boxes. We also learned a long time ago that as soon as you give one thing hoping it will alleviate all the whining about something, 10 more things pop up in its place. Tried and true.



Freighters could really use some fitting options. Why should freighters only be giant boxes? Industrial ships are also heavily geared toward moving stuff, and they have plenty of options for tank/cargo/troll fits.

Quote:

What Freighters need is to remember that Eve IS a PVP game. So... PVP. The best counters for Gankers are either a griffin wing support(pre-lock any gank ship that hits the field, soon as it goes suspect, perma jam it) with some logistics, a pair of Rapiers with Claymore/Astarte booster warping to station between every gate, Or to simply not use your freighter or keep the values low. I'd never suggest a Freighter to a pilot. An orca is infinitely better. A JF better still.

All in all, you choose to buy a freighter and use it, and NOT take precautions to protect it, you choose to lose it. Maybe not today, but it will happen. CCP doesn't need to fix anything here. People need to take responsibility for their stuff, and remember this is a PVP Sandbox. So bring your PVP toys to the sandbox and wreck it


Can you imagine anything in EVE that would be more boring than being a hisec Freighter escort? At least with mining, you have the option of watching a movie or something. A freighter escort would need to be constantly vigilant for the entire (painfully slow) journey, and even then, they can't really do much about a bumping stabber keeping the freighter out of warp basically indefinitely. What do you suggest, suicide-ganking the bumper? Should every freighter have a gang of a half-dozen catalysts on standby, on top of the ECM wing and logis and webbing ships that you recommend?


Because if you could fit a DC on a Freighter, Your tank would be some ridiculous 4-500k EHP in structure alone. The Lack of mods is a tradeoff for overk 800km3 available. Take that up with CCP but In my opinion giving them even 1 low/1mid would turn them into High sec hauling carriers.

o_o Boring?? 1)lulz in fleet chat. 2) Potential fights? Since when does potential fights for a pvp group = boring? 3) If you don't know how to have fun in your situation then it's not really anyone elses fault or problem. It sounds like you rather do stuff yourself in eve which is completely okay, your risks just run higher.

Edit:It posted before I could finish typing ):

Edit 2: Also, have you ever been sov grinding? That takes every cake over boring ****.


Giving freighters fitting options doesn't mean giving them the exact same stats as they do currently, but with slots. As a sort of "first draft" example, what if they had two lows, 50% less raw hull HP and 35% less Cargo space. DCII + Bulkheads would be reduced cargospace relative to current freighters, but with substantially better survivability (about 1.5 times as much EHP as they do now). Two cargo expanders get it up above current cargo space levels, but with substantially reduced EHP. DCII + Cargo expander is just about equal to a current freighter, slightly less cargo and slightly more tank.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#257 - 2014-02-10 19:07:30 UTC
Dieterlin wrote:
DCII + Bulkheads would be reduced cargospace relative to current freighters, but with substantially better survivability (about 1.5 times as much EHP as they do now). Two cargo expanders get it up above current cargo space levels, but with substantially reduced EHP. DCII + Cargo expander is just about equal to a current freighter, slightly less cargo and slightly more tank.
They don't need more EHP and they're not allowed more cargo space.
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#258 - 2014-02-10 19:16:53 UTC
wow 13 pages that's pretty impressive! so the general idea is to make it so freighters can't be bumped? Is it just me or is that a silly idea? Take for example you're at war with someone and you see them in a freighter but you don't have a point fitted to your ship and you can't fly anything cool for blowing up freighters and you're the only person online in your corp so you start shooting it with you rubbish little guns and bumping it to hold it in place until people log on and come and assist. By this idea that would be an exploit which is pants on head stupid. If you're being bumped all you do is hit escape and then press the safe log off button wait 30 seconds and your ship vanishes from space!! any idea giving freighters fitting slots is bad and totally unbalanced without cutting their cargo in half and nerfing it through the ground (yarr long sentence!!).
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#259 - 2014-02-10 19:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
wait, so when im telling ppl to use escorts, ur actually having trouble believing that i do it myself when i move my stuff in freighters? why?

bumping is a good and intended mechanic. ive said earlier in this thread why its good and its uses. there ARE ways to avoid it, as well as ways to foil a gank. the only ppl saying there isnt have somehow missed the huge list that repeats itself and has appeared through out this thread. I have several freighter chars and not a single successful gank has been made against them. i think this is largely due to the methods that are mentioned here and that ive employed.

if u get ganked despite using these methods, thats unlucky, u wont get away with it all the time (and so u shouldnt, neither will i. anyone who thinks they should be 100% safe is clearly playing the wrong game). but if u get ganked because u haven't employed these methods, as so many of u clearly arent, then u either decided its not worth the effort or u are dumb. either way, its your fault. take responsibility for your own lack of action.

meanwhile, while ur stuff gets blown up, mine gets through the ganks and i make more money than u. hurrah for evolution.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Dieterlin
Reckless-Endangerment
Manifesto.
#260 - 2014-02-10 19:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dieterlin
Riot Girl wrote:
Dieterlin wrote:
DCII + Bulkheads would be reduced cargospace relative to current freighters, but with substantially better survivability (about 1.5 times as much EHP as they do now). Two cargo expanders get it up above current cargo space levels, but with substantially reduced EHP. DCII + Cargo expander is just about equal to a current freighter, slightly less cargo and slightly more tank.
They don't need more EHP and they're not allowed more cargo space.


Is there some game-breaking effect that I'm not aware of that comes into play when a Freighter can make an EHP/cargo-space tradeoff? Do they get to launch bombs in hisec or something? Un-anchor stations and run off with them?

EDIT: Yes, there is. Apparently packaged caps are just large enough that a freighter can't fit them, and a Charon with 2x cargo expanders and 35% less raw cargohold is just a little bit more than a packaged carrier's size.