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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#201 - 2014-02-10 14:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
I've solo ganked a lot of folks myself and came to conclusion that people are simply lazy and ignorant.


Boy, that's not a convenient conclusion for a ganker to come to. We should all be convinced by the sheer counter-intuitiveness of this outcome.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#202 - 2014-02-10 14:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
I've solo ganked a lot of folks myself and came to conclusion that people are simply lazy and ignorant.


Boy, that's not a convenient conclusion for a ganker to come to. We should all be convinced by the sheer counter-intuitiveness of this outcome.

It's the same conclusion capable freighter pilots come to.

Oh god.
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
#203 - 2014-02-10 14:42:11 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
There's nothing wrong with the bumping mechanics.


They are highly outdated, thats the Problem.

Oh and to be clear, i dont mind Freighter Gank, its just the fact that the Game doesnt evolve anoys me.

Meet the Mario Kart 8 - Capsuleer Club Cup
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#204 - 2014-02-10 14:45:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Riot Girl wrote:
It's the same conclusion capable freighter pilots come to.


And it's an interesting story, but ultimately a non sequitur, to counter the suggestion that freighter bumping is an exploit by saying that people shouldn't haul cargo of high value in T1 freighters. The criticism has nothing to do with the specific reason for any given gank, nor with the validity of ganking as an enterprise. It's solely about the bumping mechanics that are often used in the course of ganking. Referring to these specific reasons for ganking is not much more than a diversionary tactic to make it seem like the issue is about the validity of ganking, when it really has nothing to do with that.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#205 - 2014-02-10 15:07:54 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
by saying that people shouldn't haul cargo of high value in T1 freighters.

I never said that.

Quote:
Referring to these specific reasons for ganking is not much more than a diversionary tactic to make it seem like the issue is about the validity of ganking, when it really has nothing to do with that.

I think you quoted the wrong post because I was talking about something completely different. I was talking about freighter pilots who take the necessary precautions to fly their ship safely. I wasn't justifying bumping by saying it was the pilot's fault they've been chosen as a target. I don't care why they were chosen, though I imagine it's because they're doing something stupid.

Oh god.
Estrella Sheikh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2014-02-10 15:09:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Estrella Sheikh
Emma Muutaras wrote:
i have a alt that fly's freight around high sec normally in afk autopilot mode if im honest.

i have had times when i have been bumping off another freighter trying to aline to the out gate keeping us both stuck.. at least until i manually cancelled warp and piloted the the ship away from the other freighter. this was easy to fix.

i have also had times when i have been bumped around gate for a good 30 mins by 2 mwding battleships playing a game of ping pong with my freighter, with how long it takes a freighter to aline (41.2 s) and its top speed (out of warp) being 102 m/s (228 MPH about the same speed at a twin prop engine aeroplane) it is impossible to burn back to gate before your bumped off gate and its impossible to get into warp (unless they bump you in the direction of you out gate then you at least have a chance) . your basically stuck until they get bored or a gank squad arrives.

ganking isn't the problem its apart of eve it happens, however bumping a ship for hours on end that has no way to defend against it is where the problem lies.

some fix's mentioned have problems of there own

you cant make bumping give you limited engagement or suspect tag or jita undock will be ridiculous with every 1 getting blapped on the undock for bumping as they undock

you cant really make freighters aline faster / have higher top speed as it would break the drawback of flying freighters (high cargo hold very low speed)

you cant gank the bumpers without concord killing you seams like a bad deal to me there bumping in battleships so high ehp so you need to sacrifice a lot of ships to kill 1 ship

It must be considered griefing.

i cant see any way to fix it except to declare it a exploit.

all numbers stated are based on the obelisk with all skills at level 5


So instead of continuing your warp to the gate, why are you not canceling warp and waiting for them to bump you in the direction of a celestial? or playing the aligning game and coerce them to bump you in the desired direction? If you were sitting there for 30 minutes that's plenty of time to do something about it.

Edit:Forgot to add. I really think people are forgetting that they can un-initiate warp and you know.. manually pilot their freighter to influence where they're bumped to? Or you know, choose to warp something other than the gate they're indefinitely bumping you away from?
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#207 - 2014-02-10 15:12:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Riot Girl wrote:
I think you quoted the wrong post because I was talking about something completely different. I was talking about freighter pilots who take the necessary precautions to fly their ship safely. I wasn't justifying bumping by saying it was the pilot's fault they've been chosen as a target. I don't care why they were chosen, though I imagine it's because they're doing something stupid.


I didn't originally quote your post. You defended the conclusion of a post that I quoted, so I replied to your defense. Was it incorrect for me to assume that you agreed with what the other post said? Usually people defend things that they agree with.
DSpite Culhach
#208 - 2014-02-10 15:15:49 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:

I'd rather hand mechanics over to allow pirates to be pirates, and even players to play as navy, so they can play silly cat and mouse games all day in hisec.

The spaghetti code to allow all that would probably strangle most of the devs .


Now imagine what an organised group, seasoned in fleet fights and with nothing else to do in nullsec could do to hisec if this mechanism of yours was implemented. Burn Jita would look like naive childish fun.


You say that as if it's a bad thing.

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#209 - 2014-02-10 15:17:46 UTC
All the ganker defenders here are just here to say they want to keep their freedom to incapacitate a freighter pilot from doing anything anymore ever in eve unless they eject from freighter. Theres nothing you can do about a bumping linked and slaved damnation without losing the freighters price to concord.

Oh the loss on eve if some dumb little kid doesn't have the choice of bumping a freighter 23/7 and never letting it go. But guess the gankers just need this choice as they're jumping in here to defend this right of theirs.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#210 - 2014-02-10 15:18:37 UTC
Yeah but I don't really get what you're saying.

You're either saying;
1) You think my argument is that bumping is justified because people carry too much cargo.
2) Ganking shouldn't be taken into consideration when considering changes to bumping mechanics.
or
3) Buff carebears, nerf sociopaths.

I can't figure out which it is.

Oh god.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#211 - 2014-02-10 15:20:08 UTC
Estrella Sheikh wrote:
So instead of continuing your warp to the gate, why are you not canceling warp and waiting for them to bump you in the direction of a celestial? or playing the aligning game and coerce them to bump you in the desired direction? If you were sitting there for 30 minutes that's plenty of time to do something about it.


Just because you can conceive of some convoluted way in which a freighter pilot might "do something about it" doesn't excuse the bumping mechanic. The fact remains that those who engage in this perma-bumping get a free, non-aggression causing point to use against their victims. That's simply absurd, on its face.
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#212 - 2014-02-10 15:23:24 UTC
Bumping has no impact on ganking, the gank ends when the ships are destroyed. There is already a mechanic for keeping a ship from warping, it's called warp disruption. Just making continuous bumping of a freighter in hisec an exploit is all there's needed. Everywhere else you can retaliate and this only effects freighters essentially. If someone does it, you petition it, thats all there's needed, no changes to mechanic itself or anything.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#213 - 2014-02-10 15:24:08 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Yeah but I don't really get what you're saying.

You're either saying;
1) You think my argument is that bumping is justified because people carry too much cargo.
2) Ganking shouldn't be taken into consideration when considering changes to bumping mechanics.
or
3) Buff carebears, nerf sociopaths.

I can't figure out which it is.


The person I originally replied to offered "Don't carry goods beyond X value in a T1 freighter" as a response to the suggestion that freighter bumping is an exploit. I replied to that suggestion, arguing that it was mighty convenient for a ganker to conclude that gank victims are mostly just lazy and/or dumb about how they conduct their business. You defended that post. So I'm saying #1. If #1 is not true for you, perhaps you shouldn't defend posts that you don't agree with. Not sure what else I can really say about that.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#214 - 2014-02-10 15:24:16 UTC
Bumping mechanics are very easily avoided. Just fly something smaller.

Oh god.
Estrella Sheikh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#215 - 2014-02-10 15:24:27 UTC
Motoko Innocentius wrote:
All the ganker defenders here are just here to say they want to keep their freedom to incapacitate a freighter pilot from doing anything anymore ever in eve unless they eject from freighter. Theres nothing you can do about a bumping linked and slaved damnation without losing the freighters price to concord.

Oh the loss on eve if some dumb little kid doesn't have the choice of bumping a freighter 23/7 and never letting it go. But guess the gankers just need this choice as they're jumping in here to defend this right of theirs.


Person.

I fly freighters, Orcas, and Jump Freighters.

Bumping isn't broken in the slightest. If you can't feasibly come up with a counter to someone accelerating into you, accelerating away from you to get momentmum, and then pick an object to warp to with someone else there waiting for you to help you get in warp to your destination, AND YOU HAVE AN EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF TIME, Seriously.. Stop complaining.

You're investing a billion isk roughly into a ship, you can't invest in a couple of people to help you move whatever large amount of **** you're transporting?

Cost of doing business?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#216 - 2014-02-10 15:27:54 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
You defended that post. So I'm saying #1. If #1 is not true for you, perhaps you shouldn't defend posts that you don't agree with.

I was defending the part you quoted because it was correct.

Oh god.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#217 - 2014-02-10 15:29:36 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
I was defending the part you quoted because it was correct.


But do you think it is a valid rebuttal to the suggestion that freighter bumping is an exploit? If not, we're on the same page and have nothing to argue about.
Estrella Sheikh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2014-02-10 15:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Estrella Sheikh
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:
Estrella Sheikh wrote:
So instead of continuing your warp to the gate, why are you not canceling warp and waiting for them to bump you in the direction of a celestial? or playing the aligning game and coerce them to bump you in the desired direction? If you were sitting there for 30 minutes that's plenty of time to do something about it.


Just because you can conceive of some convoluted way in which a freighter pilot might "do something about it" doesn't excuse the bumping mechanic. The fact remains that those who engage in this perma-bumping get a free, non-aggression causing point to use against their victims. That's simply absurd, on its face.


Your argument ends when you state that there is a way as convoluted as it might be to actually counter this game mechanic "exploit". CCP would probably classify freighter bumping as emergent gameplay. Exploits have no countermeasures.
Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#219 - 2014-02-10 15:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Estrella Sheikh wrote:
Your argument ends when you state that there is a way as convoluted as it might be to actually counter this game mechanic "exploit".


Umm, no. My argument doesn't end when I say that.

Quote:
CCP would probably classify freighter bumping as emergent gameplay.


Interesting speculation. Of course, I'd rather see CCP classify it that way outright, rather than just assume that's the case. And a bonus question: why do gankers always seem to get so much more emergent gameplay than non-gankers? I know carebears are the stupidest people in the game, but you'd think that even they would have discovered their own emergent gameplay to effectively counter that of the gankers, no?
Motoko Innocentius
Domus Dei
#220 - 2014-02-10 15:35:12 UTC
It's been said a thousand times Estrella Sheikh, bumping kills the possibility to web warp away in a speed fast enough, also you are hard pressed to try and bump a damnation from hitting your super sized freighter hit box. Also, how you going to gank that 500k ehp damnation?

Don't give bs about "it's not likely to happen", but it's possible to do so. So as long as you're saying theres no problem, in being able to disallow a freighter pilot from doing anything with a solo guy, you are clearly one weirdo.