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[Rubicon 1.3] Drone Assist change

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Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1161 - 2014-02-10 13:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Fix Sov wrote:
Chronology:
N3/PL uses sentry-wielding carriers
CFC finally escalate in a way which causes "a few" N3/PL titans to die
N3 and PL call for a withdrawal
CCP announce drone assist changes

And yet, on twitter, Grath keeps claiming that this change was implemented "to help one side of a war", despite the fact that drone assist wasn't why the withdrawal happened, and the war's essentially over well before it was announced.


I didn't say help, I said Favor, as in to side with.

Heres a broader chronology for you:

CFC announces at the start of the war that they will use sentry assign in excess so it gets nerfed because its their opponents chosen weapon system (this is on both news sites)

For 90 days they fly nothing but Harpy and Domi fleets (obviously the harpy needs to be nerfed, its usage stats have to be broken)

CFC cries about drone lag while fielding 1k man fleets of Domis


CCP announces Drone changes

CFC pinged to come to this thread to celebrate their 'victory'

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Mario Putzo
#1162 - 2014-02-10 13:33:44 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Chronology:
N3/PL uses sentry-wielding carriers
CFC finally escalate in a way which causes "a few" N3/PL titans to die
N3 and PL call for a withdrawal
CCP announce drone assist changes

And yet, on twitter, Grath keeps claiming that this change was implemented "to help one side of a war", despite the fact that drone assist wasn't why the withdrawal happened, and the war's essentially over well before it was announced.


Why ignore the 4 months of 1000man + Domi Fleets.

Or do 1000 Domis not count the same as 300 Carriers?

I think we all agree that drones have issues. Unfortunately drone assist isn't one of those issues and this "fix" just comes across as CCP Rise Appeasing 65000 people who spent 12 months crying about a 10 year old mechanic, and the past 4 months "prooving" how broken and unfun it was.
Fix Sov
#1163 - 2014-02-10 13:34:01 UTC
And how does that bolster your claim that CCP implemented this change to "help one side in a war", when that war's already over, and the ending of it had nothing to do with drones?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1164 - 2014-02-10 13:37:08 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
And how does that bolster your claim that CCP implemented this change to "help one side in a war", when that war's already over, and the ending of it had nothing to do with drones?


Wars not over, pretty sure you're still fighting daily and Mittani already pinged that you need to stop acting like the war is over because its costing you ships.

And again siding with one group of players over another, regardless of the state of the war is bad developmental practice

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Fix Sov
#1165 - 2014-02-10 13:47:59 UTC
So 2 sides are using drone assist, CCP announces the changes after the war's essentially over (until the next war flares up in some other region), and despite the fact that both sides are using drone assist (and as such are both equally affected), CCP is siding with one side.

Well, that's logical.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1166 - 2014-02-10 13:53:48 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
So 2 sides are using drone assist, CCP announces the changes after the war's essentially over (until the next war flares up in some other region), and despite the fact that both sides are using drone assist (and as such are both equally affected), CCP is siding with one side.

Well, that's logical.


Try, one side publicly announces at the start of the fight that they're going to purposely excessively use the favorite weapon system of its enemy with the express intent of having it nerfed.

CCP is caving in to that stupidity and instead of overhauling all drones they are literally doing exactly what one side publicly stated its goal was.


Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Fix Sov
#1167 - 2014-02-10 13:54:46 UTC
What would they do to "overhauling all drones"?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Mario Putzo
#1168 - 2014-02-10 13:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Fix Sov wrote:
So 2 sides are using drone assist, CCP announces the changes after the war's essentially over (until the next war flares up in some other region), and despite the fact that both sides are using drone assist (and as such are both equally affected), CCP is siding with one side.

Well, that's logical.


Its logical *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

1 side spent 12 months complaing about it.
1 side used a doctrine specifically for the reason of removing drone assist for 4 months
1 side spent those 4 months complaining about how boring drone assist made fleet fights

N3 didn't have forum CTA's for complaining about something, then cheering a nerf. Only Martini called that.

As an outsider who thinks the political argument between you guys is irrelevant to the topic, it comes off as Rise catering to CFC.

12 months of CFC complaining, 4 months of CFC using drone ship specifically to lag system culminating in HED-GP, and then a change to a 10 year old mechanic based off those two situations....totally catering to the CFC.

and that is pretty pathetic if you ask me. Catering to Nullsec has caused many bullshit changes that negatively impact the rest of the game. Here we are again being impacted because of nullsec bitching.

If drones cause lag they do so with or without drone assist. So fix the problem not a symptom.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#1169 - 2014-02-10 14:00:25 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
What would they do to "overhauling all drones"?


You mean fix fighters fix tracking so that sentries weren't the go to drone (this can be broken down into sub categories but we'll condense it) fix the drone UI so it wasn't garbage fix the drone behavior so they didn't go skynet fix the drone coding so it didn't pour gas on the server and flick matches at it fix ec 300s so that they weren't broken and dumb fix other ewar drones so they were useful to carry just to name a few off the top of my head.

If there was an overall patch for drones then this wouldn't be such a one sided thing

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Fix Sov
#1170 - 2014-02-10 14:06:26 UTC
Sounds like it would be more productive to promote that instead of railing at CCP for "caving to one side of a war (that's ended using ... not drones to end it)".

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#1171 - 2014-02-10 14:21:09 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
So 2 sides are using drone assist, CCP announces the changes after the war's essentially over (until the next war flares up in some other region), and despite the fact that both sides are using drone assist (and as such are both equally affected), CCP is siding with one side.

Well, that's logical.


Try, one side publicly announces at the start of the fight that they're going to purposely excessively use the favorite weapon system of its enemy with the express intent of having it nerfed.

CCP is caving in to that stupidity and instead of overhauling all drones they are literally doing exactly what one side publicly stated its goal was.




Nah, sounds like coincidence for me. After all, CCP and the CSM were talking about this change for months already. Most likely the idea was already in the air long before the war started.
School Nickname Worldmonkey
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1172 - 2014-02-10 15:00:48 UTC  |  Edited by: School Nickname Worldmonkey
Grath Telkin wrote:
The end result should be enough with this bandaid crap that you're doing.

Any change to any drone mechanics should come as an overhaul of the entire drone system, no just one part because one part of the player base waged some forum campaign that amounted to 10 posts a day because they were fighting an enemy that used Sentry Drones.

Change drone assign when you

Overhaul the drone code

Overhaul fighter mechanics

Overhaul the Drone UI

Fix non Sentry Drone tracking and Movement

Fix Ewar Drones


Its like "hey guys, we know that drones in general actually suck the sweat off a dead donkey's balls, but these guys cried really really loud and long about this one part, so the rest of it can sit and stew for a year while we address their cries".


So your alternative to us wallowing in a crappy meta for maybe a year as a result of one change (which has zero effect on you anyway) is to have us wallow in a really crappy meta for years while CCP tries to do all the things you suggest?

Yeah, no. Veritas and Rise were right to call time on this FoTM which destroyed both fun and servers and possibly Veritas' sleep-cycle along with it.

Another one of your toys is gone, but you can always take your own advice and "HTFU".
Kimimaro Yoga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1173 - 2014-02-10 16:50:12 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
And how does that bolster your claim that CCP implemented this change to "help one side in a war", when that war's already over, and the ending of it had nothing to do with drones?


Wars not over, pretty sure you're still fighting daily and Mittani already pinged that you need to stop acting like the war is over because its costing you ships.

And again siding with one group of players over another, regardless of the state of the war is bad developmental practice

CFC's war with N3 is still grinding through the end stage.

CFC's war with PL ended weeks ago, and the ending of it had nothing to do with drone assist. Also both sides were using it, now both sides won't. Not exactly a major impact on the war, especially since not long ago claims were made that drone assist was too broken in large battles to be all that meaningful anyways.

So why exactly are you complaining about a minor change that CCP held off on until you weren't involved in a war? Other than you liked that FOTM, and are sadpanda that it's gone.

Now recruiting: http://dogfacedesign.com/index.php/Recruiting-Posters/recruiting-poster-patr3
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#1174 - 2014-02-10 16:57:28 UTC
dont worry grath this change still leaves archons in tact... something tells me that the cfc will influence the CSM to lobby ccp to nerf carriers into the ground.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Mario Putzo
#1175 - 2014-02-10 17:02:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
School Nickname Worldmonkey wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
The end result should be enough with this bandaid crap that you're doing.

Any change to any drone mechanics should come as an overhaul of the entire drone system, no just one part because one part of the player base waged some forum campaign that amounted to 10 posts a day because they were fighting an enemy that used Sentry Drones.

Change drone assign when you

Overhaul the drone code

Overhaul fighter mechanics

Overhaul the Drone UI

Fix non Sentry Drone tracking and Movement

Fix Ewar Drones


Its like "hey guys, we know that drones in general actually suck the sweat off a dead donkey's balls, but these guys cried really really loud and long about this one part, so the rest of it can sit and stew for a year while we address their cries".


So your alternative to us wallowing in a crappy meta for maybe a year as a result of one change (which has zero effect on you anyway) is to have us wallow in a really crappy meta for years while CCP tries to do all the things you suggest?

Yeah, no. Veritas and Rise were right to call time on this FoTM which destroyed both fun and servers and possibly Veritas' sleep-cycle along with it.

Another one of your toys is gone, but you can always take your own advice and "HTFU".


why should the rest of the game have to be adjusted because you guys in null lack the initiative to use something other than a strategy that is only empowered because of changes to drones and drone ships (that CCP was made fully aware WOULD happen when they were making changes to Drones/Droneships.), and has nothing to do with a 10 year old mechanic. It is not drone assist that has made Drone use the current meta.

It isn't FOTM anyway. CFC pilots have been complaining about this since early 2013. The only time this meta ever had an impact on the servers as a whole was in HED when CFC dropped 1500 Domis, then attempted to put 700 Dreads onto that grid. It wasn't drone assist that did that. It was the dreads asking for information of the 20K objects already on grid.

You can see the moment that the Dreads were called for in CCPs own devblog about it.

If this was truly about the meta, then why does the proposed fix not address either of the alleged issues. Why does CCP Rise say that drone assist is no fun...then allow drone assist to remain. Why does CCP Rise say drones put load on the server, then do absolutely nothing about fixing the issue with drones putting strain on the server.

1 Assist, 5 Assist, 10 Assist 25Assist 50 assist. doesn't matter we all still drop 5+ new objects into a grid.

1) Why should low sec and highsec be impacted because nullsec doesn't like the current meta.
2) If Drone assist is that bad (after 10 years of never being an issue) just remove it
3) Do something to actually limit the number of drones on grid (like make ships without drone bonus unable to use them at all)

Actually fix **** and end this stupid back and forth between nullsec groups. No one other than N3PL and CFC care about N3PL and CFC....but there are still a ton of us who are once again going to have to change our gameplay because CCP once again is catering to a small subset of the userbase.

If this is actually about fixing a problem, lets fix it. Stop pointing fingers at each other and CCP stop siding with whichever voice is crying the loudest. A 10 year old mechanic is now a broken and poor mechanic because 65000 people in nullsec ran to the forums to complain about the other 25000 people in null sec were using it. What about 300,000 people in lowsec/highsec/wh space.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1176 - 2014-02-10 17:06:14 UTC
Kimimaro Yoga wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
And how does that bolster your claim that CCP implemented this change to "help one side in a war", when that war's already over, and the ending of it had nothing to do with drones?


Wars not over, pretty sure you're still fighting daily and Mittani already pinged that you need to stop acting like the war is over because its costing you ships.

And again siding with one group of players over another, regardless of the state of the war is bad developmental practice

CFC's war with N3 is still grinding through the end stage.

CFC's war with PL ended weeks ago, and the ending of it had nothing to do with drone assist. Also both sides were using it, now both sides won't. Not exactly a major impact on the war, especially since not long ago claims were made that drone assist was too broken in large battles to be all that meaningful anyways.

So why exactly are you complaining about a minor change that CCP held off on until you weren't involved in a war? Other than you liked that FOTM, and are sadpanda that it's gone.


Grath has repeatedly assured me that this change won't affect the "FoTM" at all.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1177 - 2014-02-10 17:17:19 UTC
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=21473406 This Is A Battlereport Which Clearly Shows The Overpowered Ability Of Drone Assist In Smaller Gang Warfare. The Ishtars Kiting Ability, Damage, Damage Projection, And Alphastrike Is Far Above Anything Else In Its Class.

Following That Fight We Switched To A Dominix doctrine To Counter ishtars As The Only Thing To beat drone doctrine Is More Drone Doctrine.

i Know FirstHand the Power Of drone assist Since I've Been multiBoxing Sentry Assist Domis For The Last 4 Years.

sent From My Phone Very Terrible will Edit Later.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#1178 - 2014-02-10 17:17:46 UTC
What I am amused is how far this Conversation has swayed from a discussion about drones, to a discussion about a war and Sides. The same side that has it's own members thanking the change on this forum MORE then those complaining about it. With only one member Staunchly arguing the changes while his side makes Deals with the same side he cries about. As a matter of fact I remember PL Paying a CFC member a few billion over some sov recently that was going to get flipped away. The same side that signed deals in a flipped station to remove there assets VS Fight the war they deemed will be lost to this change. The same side who was the FIRST to run to the Drone regions instead of stick it out with the ally N3. The Same side who can STILL USE the same mechanics to have of WON the war if they spent more time fight ingame then on the forums. It's amazing how that side Cries Wolf with the CFC meanwhile is in bed with them.

These Drone changes were needed LONG AGO, Have been discussed changes coming LONG before the fountain war. People have asked for Drone changes FOREVER now. Now that drone changes are coming, You are on hear tearing about them while your own members from PL as well as your ally says it was coming also. PGL the CSM from YOUR coalition also not on here fighting while I have seen our "Half" of the CSM on here vocally. Maybe N3/PL should get its line members and Forum warriors all on the same page. Maybe if N3/PL members Cared more they would be on more or joining your ranks more and you would not get "Blobbed". It's amazing how everyone hates the CFC yet our ranks keep swelling. Maybe it's time to rethink your path for your coalition? Adjust your recruitment so MORE want to fight for you instead of against you?

But Back to Drones.

These changes are needed if they cause that much of a Strain on the server being out. If nerfing assist has even a "slight" improvement to server performance then it's a welcome change. If having to use more line members to be drone bunnies in carrier/domi/ishtar/prophecy/gila/Geddon(lol)/tristan/velator then the change did it's job.

Nobody might care about nullbro's and I agree if your in Hi-sec then you should not have to. Hell I didnt play in Nullsec until like 3-4 months ago, BUT when our fights are crashing Hi-sec Servers... then a change needs to occur. When fights occur at some random Null area and Jita/rens/whatever crashed due to server stress then a change needed to occur. These changes are not just affecting OUR wars, But other players not even involved in the fights. If these changes keep Hi-sec up, newbros stay playing. Sure it's a Bandaid patch, no one will argue that. but 10% of the game should not crash the other 90%.
Mario Putzo
#1179 - 2014-02-10 17:27:15 UTC
His fix doesn't do anything though.

Do you guys even know how to read? I seriously question that right now. Go read the devblog. then return here and read his fix. If this is about fixing the isues that showed up in HED then fix them.

If drone assist is truly an issue get rid of it completely. It has no place in the game if it harms the server and offers no constructive reason for doing so.

If drones put strain on the server....than actually fix that. Stop making ships that have no reason at all to field drones. Drones should not be on any subclass ship imho because it defeats the whole purpose of a subcapital fleet you should have frigates and destroyers to keep BC and BS clear of tackle. Capitals should be the only ships to have Drones because they need a way to defense themselves against smaller ships.

And yes Capital and Subcapital fleets should be capable of operating independently because they have their own checks and balances.

CCP Rise fix is not a fix. It is not even a bandaid.
Aatrek's School Bus
#1180 - 2014-02-10 17:48:52 UTC
drone assist nerf good

stop your whining just adapt to game change