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ORE Battleship

Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#141 - 2014-02-06 19:45:06 UTC
Jukio Saisima wrote:
...But as I said, even this will be used as bait.

So if there is no solid reason to make this thing ... and I dont see one.. you know how CCP works.

It should be considered, when thinking about this idea, why it is unpopular to use PvP ships to stand guard over and protect mining interests.

The PvP players, as I am sure you already know, feel it is more interesting to do other things.
Sticking around, and escorting or guarding, or most other time consuming tasks with no guarantee of PvP action, these are not why they play, or normally how they choose to play.

A hull not fast enough to catch it's prey is simply not going to be used. Too boring, and no fights of your choice.
So, a battleship hull, gimped in maneuverability enough to be excluded from roams, becomes a practical aspect for tasks not centered around moving around a lot.
Like mining.

Now, giving it a mining yield of about 25 to 75% of a comparably fitted Hulk, (defensive considerations typical for use in null), makes it worth using, while staying safely out of the barges and exhumer's territory of high yield mining.

Think of it, a Rokh chewing through rocks.

It could be as easy as allowing a mining rig specially designed for this.
Trading maneuverability in exchange for yield and ORE hold aspects.
Jukio Saisima
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#142 - 2014-02-06 20:20:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jukio Saisima
I would not sit around null in small group of let say Rokhs and mine. Not without support.

If you have alliance that has enough defensive posture to severely limit what ships can penetrate their territory then you dont need low yield battleships. You can use Skiff-s instead. If you are using lets say 500 mil ORE battleships without any support you will be engaged just as you would be in Skiff. Few falcons and pilgrims with support of few cloacky Proteuses (which will refit the moment they land) will eat fleet like that without any problems. Small cloacky force that can shut down small BS group without support.

So you still need support. I really dont see that concept working for null or low mining. Let alone wh-es where I spend most of my time.

Small group of T2-s that are able to move fast, engage small force and gtfo from something bigger is something I would consider for null. With BS hulls you have almost no gtfo

LP

Jukio
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#143 - 2014-02-06 20:34:31 UTC
Jukio Saisima wrote:
I would not sit around null in small group of let say Rokhs and mine. Not without support.

If you have alliance that has enough defensive posture to severely limit what ships can penetrate their territory then you dont need low yield battleships. You can use Skiff-s instead. If you are using lets say 500 mil ORE battleships without any support you will be engaged just as you would be in Skiff. Few falcons and pilgrims with support of few cloacky Proteuses (which will refit the moment they land) will eat fleet like that without any problems. Small cloacky force that can shut down small BS group without support.

So you still need support. I really dont see that concept working for null or low mining. Let alone wh-es where I spend most of my time.

Small group of T2-s that are able to move fast, engage small force and gtfo from something bigger is something I would consider for null. With BS hulls you have almost no gtfo

LP

Jukio

Your solution to use cruiser hulls would need support, possibly.

My perspective is coming from the direction of this:
Your opponent is using a BLOPs to send in an attack force. Whether your tank alone lasts long enough to allow allied assistance, or your DPS chews them down to below the threshold of being able to beat you, having that fight is what we want to see.
If you anticipate enemy frigs or dessies, a good tank plus drones is one response that contains that. Your primary concern is the cruiser sized targets, possibly the BLOPs itself coming through.
Alternatively, a small yet stealthy group could also attempt this against mining assets, but by needing to slip through conventional defenses, they limit what they can field here. High probability they have the same tools to work with.

We don't want gtfo ability here, as a primary interest. Killing their offensive assets alone is a meaningful goal, mining makes it practical to wait for visitors. You win either way.

More fights happen, and noone cares if stealthy types linger.
Jukio Saisima
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#144 - 2014-02-06 20:53:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jukio Saisima
Nikk Narrel wrote:

Your solution to use cruiser hulls would need support, possibly.

My perspective is coming from the direction of this:
Your opponent is using a BLOPs to send in an attack force. Whether your tank alone lasts long enough to allow allied assistance, or your DPS chews them down to below the threshold of being able to beat you, having that fight is what we want to see.
If you anticipate enemy frigs or dessies, a good tank plus drones is one response that contains that. Your primary concern is the cruiser sized targets, possibly the BLOPs itself coming through.
Alternatively, a small yet stealthy group could also attempt this against mining assets, but by needing to slip through conventional defenses, they limit what they can field here. High probability they have the same tools to work with.

We don't want gtfo ability here, as a primary interest. Killing their offensive assets alone is a meaningful goal, mining makes it practical to wait for visitors. You win either way.

More fights happen, and noone cares if stealthy types linger.


T2 cruisers can do without support. BS cant.

Falcons, Pilgrims, Arazu and T3-s can BLOP on you anytime. Thanks to CCP new option to refit T3-s on the fly, Proteus can refit the moment he lands in the system to 1000+ dps 130k ehp very fast. Falcons will jam most of your fleet, Pilgrims will neut the hell out of your fleet, Proteuses will be happy to rip you apart. I saw that to many times on small remote BS gangs.

I dont think this is solution for null sec miners. And trust me, I would love to see them there and trying to kill some of them.

BS hull dont work for this and it will not be used for this coz it just dosent work. You will have problems to get there, problems to gtfo, and at the end big problems to actually apply dps to anything. So you will tank. Skiff can do that. So you will need Guardian or Basi + Falcon escort to do this.

That is why that idea will never go through. You guys need to find something realistic. Something that miners will actually use.

Of course that is just my opinion.

LP

Jukio
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#145 - 2014-02-06 21:29:45 UTC
Jukio Saisima wrote:
So you will tank. Skiff can do that. So you will need Guardian or Basi + Falcon escort to do this.

That is why that idea will never go through. You guys need to find something realistic. Something that miners will actually use.

The assumption that such support will be present beyond a deliberate ambush is not something I believe in.

Without Concord, I do not believe the tank on a skiff has any significance in a fight.

Obviously, with multiple opponents, you will want multiple allies present.
Equally to be expected, PvP support has better things to do than act as a deterrent, or fight on the off chance someone chooses a convenient time to attack miners for them.

What I would expect, and find believable, is a couple of miners working together, pooling their strength while they mine together.
Noone standing guard, everyone mining, but the effective fighting strength of a PvP fitted BS for each one present.

Having friends around who behave selflessly in an online game? I like the idea. I don't expect to see it enough to plan play sessions around it, but I like the idea.

Having enlightened self interest motivate miners to use ships capable of fighting and mining? That I can believe in, and plan sessions around.

The idea possible opponents might drop 2 billion ISK into ships just for ganking me?
It might work that first time. After that, I will know enough to expect it.
Jukio Saisima
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#146 - 2014-02-06 22:43:18 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:


What I would expect, and find believable, is a couple of miners working together, pooling their strength while they mine together.
Noone standing guard, everyone mining, but the effective fighting strength of a PvP fitted BS for each one present.



Yes. But BS will not work for this kind of situation. ORE T2 cruiser would be able to do that.

I dont understand why cant you see that? You are much older and more experienced player then I am. But even I saw enough in my play time roaming low, null and wh-es that small group of mining BS alone have very little chance to survive. And I am huge fan of battleships... dont use them that much anymore. Only for specific fights with all the support. Even ships like geddons and Domis have problems.

If you want small group of miners to mine alone in null with no support, you need something faster then BS. If you mine in sector that is empty and no one in local (which is sort of standard), then you dont need anything more then Skiff. Btw, Skiff can mount tank very close to BS.

LP

Jukio



Striscio
Doomheim
#147 - 2014-02-07 00:06:46 UTC
The idea is nice (as the OP try to focus on more ships/roles and not on more yield) but it feel like you're trying to blend too many features into a single hull.

Remember that ORE are no longer a misplaced bunch of ships placed around, since the introduction of the Noctis and the Venture we now have a "full" ORE ship path, they even share a ISIS page. You don't even need to shape it as "Faction Ship", building a basic T1 hull would be a better target. (You can later "wish" for more T2 variants).

The introduction of a T1 hull will be easy to manage, by seeding the market with BPO (like the noctis) you have:
-Once the BPOs reach HS the cost will be bound to minerals prices (not to ISK*LP ratio).
-Predicable cost when implemented, you know how much x+y+z minerals cost, solved the initial BPO rush inflation.
-Steady market supply (Industry vs. ORE LP store).
-Cheaper price, in line with T1 BS hull (instead of a faction BS).
-Having a "meta0" BPO means BPC+invention, that lead a possible future T2.


Regards lore, you could look at marauders ("Geared toward versatility and prolonged deployment in hostile environments") and look it from a mining barge prospective. However i can't see how they can fit any weapon systems... according to the lore ORE is Gallente based and used to contract Mordu's Legion for protection, until Serpentis managed a takeover. Whatever age these ships comes from, they are logically going to fit hybrids (unless they come from a very remotely impossible ORE-Mordu's joint venture and have a small chance to pack launchers)

Said that, as far as bonuses and skills goes... i would drop the Links and Exhumers. As T1 it would probably require a new skill and a new hull model. Weapon bonus are indeed needed (at least 2*2.0 or even 4*2.0) but needs to be focused on a system (since it rule out missiles and drone)

As many had already said, this ship it's a "Jack of all trades, master of none". It still need more refine, the concept is too vast.
James Nikolas Tesla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2014-02-07 01:16:13 UTC
I like the idea of having it fit links because it adds to how many ways you can fit it. As for your idea to drop the Exhumers skill, I need to think on it. Maybe it could use the skill ORE Industrial instead.

CODE is just a bunch of pirates; smart, organized pirates. It doesn't help to rage at them because that is exactly what they want. Dust yourself off and get back on your feet, you don't even have to talk to them.

Striscio
Doomheim
#149 - 2014-02-07 11:00:08 UTC
James Nikolas Tesla wrote:
I like the idea of having it fit links because it adds to how many ways you can fit it. As for your idea to drop the Exhumers skill, I need to think on it. Maybe it could use the skill ORE Industrial instead.


My points on that:
-Unboused links aren't a great deal, and also there is no BS sized booster now.
-Exhumers is a T2 skill, no T1 or Faction ships require T2 skills (That's the main point of factions ships)

You might want to consider spliting it into a BC (Supervisor/Overseer Barge) and a BS (Expeditionary/Battle Barge).


Anyway back to the BS sized hull, i tried to figure how to allow a mix of strip miners and turret into highslots, but without hardcoding the hardpoints it doesn't works (or at least looks like abusable). I don't know how easy or even if hardcoding of this kind is possible.

The simplest technical solution would be 3 highs utility slot (or 3 mining turret) with mining bouns plus drone damage bonus. This would lead to possible passive gaming exploit and drone boat related pro/con, although adding another drone boat ships might be redundant, it's the only "neutral" weapon system that is anyway trained along "ORE path".
Good:
-Drones are universal and neutral weapon system (you don't get caught in Missiles/Turret tree).
-Drones skills are generally trained for Mining barge and Exhumers.
-Allow a proper and easy CPU/PWG hull calibration since you don't need to mind regard guns/strip full rack fit balance problem
Bad:
-Some people doesn't like drones.
-Drones (non alpha sentry) are mostly undesirable main pvp weapon system.
-Possible afk/boting/abuse issue
-Drones are chunky sometimes (more than often in my experience)

sum: imho another boring mining/drone ship.


It would much more funny to create a reverted bonuses ship, giving drones mining boosts instead of combat, in order to reach a decent yield while leaving highslot free for weapons.
Jukio Saisima
Long Pig Luncheon Meat
Sending Thots And Players
#150 - 2014-02-07 12:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jukio Saisima
As I said before. T2 cruiser ORE hull is what you need.

Even with same mining bonuses as let say Skiff it will be useless in AFK high sec mining (less tank). Would work in null and low.

Something like ORE version of Ishtar. 125 mb drone bandwith, 250 drone bay, no tracking bonuses (or maybe 5% per lvl as N. Vexor), no turret mounts. Instead you get mining bonuses. Skiff level of yield, 20k of ore space...

I think something like that would work.

Btw drones are nasty PVP weapon in the right ship. That is why Domi and Ishtar are used so much. Training time for drones is longer then any other weapon system. But you do get ideal PVP option in low and null for miners.

LP
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#151 - 2014-02-07 15:19:32 UTC
Jukio Saisima wrote:
As I said before. T2 cruiser ORE hull is what you need.

Even with same mining bonuses as let say Skiff it will be useless in AFK high sec mining (less tank). Would work in null and low.

Something like ORE version of Ishtar. 125 mb drone bandwith, 250 drone bay, no tracking bonuses (or maybe 5% per lvl as N. Vexor), no turret mounts. Instead you get mining bonuses. Skiff level of yield, 20k of ore space...

I think something like that would work.

Btw drones are nasty PVP weapon in the right ship. That is why Domi and Ishtar are used so much. Training time for drones is longer then any other weapon system. But you do get ideal PVP option in low and null for miners.

LP

Let me try this version:

I would want a ship that would never be picked in high sec, outside of a war dec scenario. The loss of yield combined with existing tanking options which can bring in Concord reliably would be exhumers / barges as the obvious choice for most.

I want a ship that can expect to typically be solo, or with maybe up to 1 or 2 others similarly present. Zero dedicated PVP support.
Further, since this is expected often enough to be planned around, I would like it capable of surviving long enough under BLOPs drop conditions for one of two results to occur:

1. The ship(s) themselves to employ DPS which changes the balance against the attackers. (Attackers flee)
2. Possible assistance to arrive from neighboring systems. This requires realistically 2 to 5 minutes, and is likely only if the main opposing DPS is removed from action. This means a probable cruiser sized target, possibly 2 or 3, must be eliminated.

No guarantees of these results is being insisted on, I want the capability to exist in the minds of the would-be attackers.

Unless the attacker is willing to accept higher ISK loss than their target, attacking these fighting miners should be bad for business.

I want the miners to win on an excel sheet. The rest will follow.

I do not expect a cruiser class to resist multiple cruiser class attackers. The math doesn't support this.
I do not expect this to support a gtfo option by the time a threat arrives in system, much less on grid. We already have that, and balance to me suggests the ship should not outperform other options in their own respective areas.
Kasife Vynneve
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2014-02-07 19:27:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kasife Vynneve
Scythi Magellen wrote:


Why bother ganking them in the first place?


Because pond scum want a target to shoot at that's unlikely to bite back.


On to the topic: A Gas specialized harvester would be nice, a evolution from the wonderful Venture taken to a larger size.
This could also be in the perveiw on a t3 ORE vessel, particully for WH ninja harvesting.

More variants of mining drones would be nice as well relating to the size of drones that are available ~ maybe heavy mining drones can do a block of ice and medium mount gas harvesters.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#153 - 2014-02-07 21:09:35 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
More variants of mining drones would be nice as well relating to the size of drones that are available ~ maybe heavy mining drones can do a block of ice and medium mount gas harvesters.

This has also caught my attention recently, as I think more variety of mining drones could make mining a more interesting possibility.

Specifically, the larger sizes could be useful, perhaps as you described them.
Captain StringfellowHawk
Forsaken Reavers
#154 - 2014-02-10 01:09:52 UTC
Yes please. Industry needs some newer Mining ships not just re-rolled haulers. Love all the new pew pew ships, but would love to see industry fleshed out a little more.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#155 - 2014-02-10 01:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Orca T2 Variants:

Narhwhale

Capacity: 45,000m3
Drone Bay: 100m3
Drone Bandwidth: 50Mbit/s
Ore Capacity: 500,000m3
No Fleet Hanger
No Ship Maintenance Bay

Other stats identical to Orca.

What you would have here is a dedicate mining fleet ship. It boosts miners and loads their ore. It loads a lot of ore - almost, but not quite, as much as a freighter.

The drawback is the complete lack of a fleet hanger, meaning it lacks the versatility of the original Orca.


Posidon

Fleet Hanger: 60,000m3
Ship Maintenance Bay: 800,000m3
No Ore Bay

Other stats identical to Orca.

And here we have a dedicated capsuleer carrier ship. Sucks for mining operations, but for the nomad/fleet player, the ability to pack in twice the fitted ships as the regular Orca makes this a flying hanger. Perfect for explorers, mission runners, and some more inventive PvPers.



Special Ability of Both T2 Orcas: Ships can be Anchored like a mobile structure. An anchored ship can still be attacked (rules same as whatever sec level of the system it is in) but cannot be unanchored (read: stolen) by anyone outside of the same corporation.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#156 - 2014-02-10 14:24:16 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Orca T2 Variants:

Narhwhale

...


Posidon

...

Special Ability of Both T2 Orcas: Ships can be Anchored like a mobile structure. An anchored ship can still be attacked (rules same as whatever sec level of the system it is in) but cannot be unanchored (read: stolen) by anyone outside of the same corporation.

Sounds nice, and I really like the expansion on this, the Orca feels like the destroyer of the cap set, with minimal representation.

Side note, did you mean to name the second one Poseidon?
James Nikolas Tesla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2014-02-10 19:12:59 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:

Special Ability of Both T2 Orcas: Ships can be Anchored like a mobile structure. An anchored ship can still be attacked (rules same as whatever sec level of the system it is in) but cannot be unanchored (read: stolen) by anyone outside of the same corporation.

That is a freaking amazing idea. +1

For the skill requirements, I think Mining Barge III should be sufficient with a T2 variant that has either Exhumers I or III. The T1 ship would be like the one in my OP and the T2 would be able to fit Mining Forman Links and would require Mining Director I and Leadership I.

I also keep hearing about a Mining Cruiser and I have to say that these Mining Barges are comparable to the size of a cruiser. That is why I want a BS sized barge.

CODE is just a bunch of pirates; smart, organized pirates. It doesn't help to rage at them because that is exactly what they want. Dust yourself off and get back on your feet, you don't even have to talk to them.

James Nikolas Tesla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2014-02-10 19:20:36 UTC
I updated the OP.

CODE is just a bunch of pirates; smart, organized pirates. It doesn't help to rage at them because that is exactly what they want. Dust yourself off and get back on your feet, you don't even have to talk to them.